Wishlist for a supplement

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Melee UM... Guilliman winks.

[SirJyo]

Broken is a term I don't like to use personally, because it implies something "breaks" the game in some way. Perhaps it can't interact correctly, or be interacted with, for example.

If armies have to heavily rework their lists to have a decent chance against DA, then it's considered to be broken. (Remember 8th knights?)

 

Broken isn't a stand in word for "invincible", just heavily warping the game's balance in it's favor, and making alternatives irrelevant.

If DA makes objectively better bikers than WS for example, thereby making WS irrelevant to the meta, DA is a broken army. Semantics really,

 

As Templar players, we are used to the decently powered SM codex. Imagine a tau or craftworlds army going up against DA rip to them.

 

At least in my view 40k is a game of strategy and a bit of luck, not just comparing power levels. This is why I'm really hoping we don't become the next iron hands or DA.

[Ishagu]

Melee UM... Guilliman winks.

Funny enough the Dark Angels can make an 85 point character better than Guilliman in melee.

 

10 Str 8, Damage 3 Attacks with +1 to wound for 1/4th the cost. Strictly superior!

Edited March 14, 2021 by Ishagu

[Medjugorje]

ok... the buffs from Bobby G are great even in Melee. BUT I mean the same list as BT / UM.  Captain + 3x Assault Intercessors + X... for example. There must be an advantage as BT player against an Ultramarine player (as it is) but a better UM player will defeat a BT player what is not the case if you play Terminators

Edited March 14, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Ishagu]

ok... the buffs from Bobby G are great even in Melee. BUT I mean the same list as BT / UM. Captain + 3x Assault Intercessors + X... for example. There must be an advantage as BT player against an Ultramarine player (as it is) but a better UM player will defeat a BT player what is not the case if you play Terminators

You do realise that currently BT are one of the better performing chapters? Better than Ultras in recent showings, only really behind White Scars, Blood Angels and Dark Angels.

 

Going back to the definition of "Broken"

 

Too many people use Hyperbolic Absolutes to describe things and it doesn't help anything. Basically it means nothing because the term gets tosses around all over the place. Are Dark Angels tuned too high, currently? Yes they are. We should discuss this in a more measured way and pointing out which combinations of rules become too hard to handle. Eventually the data will show things one way or another and GW will adjust things.

 

I'm more concerned with the rest of the chapters getting their 9th edition updated supplements with more current rules, strats, Crusade rules, etc.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’ll prolly be quite awhile.

[Brother Kraskor]

 

Going back to the definition of "Broken"

 

Too many people use Hyperbolic Absolutes to describe things and it doesn't help anything. Basically it means nothing because the term gets tosses around all over the place. Are Dark Angels tuned too high, currently? Yes they are. We should discuss this in a more measured way and pointing out which combinations of rules become too hard to handle. Eventually the data will show things one way or another and GW will adjust things.

 

 

If you know its meaning has become widely diluted, why be upset about it? People are going to use 'broken' when they mean 'powerful', and probably vice versa. I agree we are better off discussing the substance itself!

[Ishagu]

Problem is it's used far too often and directed at things which aren't "broken" even by the dilluted definition.

 

I've seen it tossed around at all sorts of things over the years.

[SirJyo]

 

I'm more concerned with the rest of the chapters getting their 9th edition updated supplements with more current rules, strats, Crusade rules, etc.

I would assume GW would reprint updated first wave supplements.

But I somehow doubt they would be their own standalone books.

The charadon books having supplements built in is what makes me think so.

 

If we don't have confirmation, I'd assume we would get the same warzone treatment. A standalone book would imply new lore and art to be made, and that's high effort. Crusade rules alone can only add so many pages, it would be hard to fill a white dwarf even.

Edited March 15, 2021 by SirJyo

[CastellanDeMolay]

 

ok... the buffs from Bobby G are great even in Melee. BUT I mean the same list as BT / UM. Captain + 3x Assault Intercessors + X... for example. There must be an advantage as BT player against an Ultramarine player (as it is) but a better UM player will defeat a BT player what is not the case if you play Terminators

Too many people use Hyperbolic Absolutes to describe things and it doesn't help anything. Basically it means nothing because the term gets tosses around all over the place. Are Dark Angels tuned too high, currently? Yes they are. We should discuss this in a more measured way and pointing out which combinations of rules become too hard to handle. Eventually the data will show things one way or another and GW will adjust things.

Speaking of which, I think I can see what the writers were going for with Transhuman Physiology as a baseline ability for the Death Wing Formation. Assuming someone runs an entirely DW army then they're vulnerable to anti-tank weaponry, and it seems like an attempt to mitigate the tendency for an early game advantage to snow-ball, which is felt more keenly by elite armies without a lot of redundancy in their list. On paper it makes a lot of sense. Not having seen it in motion I'm reserving judgement, but it doesn't look absolutely terrible to me. Ignoring for a second that Firstborn marines currently don't have access to TP, realistically you wouldn't be spamming it every turn on the same unit, so while this is a significantly more efficient use of Command Points than that would be, it's not going to make a lot of difference in a well balanced army list. CP efficiency increases greatly with the addition of more DW units, but that's very much a rock list and therefore has significant weaknesses in some match-ups. One thing it does is encourage the use of lots of low strength attacks (which generally have little or no AP when available in volume) as a way to mitigate the benefit of that rule, in much the same way that the Death Guard's new version of Disgustingly Resilient does for their Infantry. As cool as it is, I think the new Inner Circle Formation will be meta-breaking rather than game-breaking.

[Medjugorje]

 

I'm more concerned with the rest of the chapters getting their 9th edition updated supplements with more current rules, strats, Crusade rules, etc.

I would assume GW would reprint updated first wave supplements.

But I somehow doubt they would be their own standalone books.

The charadon books having supplements built in is what makes me think so.

 

 

 

but the Supplements are small. Just 4 pages.

[Medjugorje]

meta breaking for sure. But it makes each similar not-DA Marines list obsolete and if the meta is changed THAT much because of one supplement (not even a codex) then for me its gamebreaking.

[SirJyo]

but the Supplements are small. Just 4 pages.

If they were to condense them I could see a problem with an "index Astartes" for all main codex chapters being considered codex part 2 and pissing alot of people off.

 

As for the BT vitamins,

If a unique primaris unit other than Helbrecht is planned, then GW is truly invested in BT and I can see us getting a full hardback supplement.

 

Makes me wonder if more Primarising is in the works for other successor firstborn characters.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I predict that in time every Finecast model will one day either be replaced, or discontinued.

[Ishagu]

I predict that in time every Finecast model will one day either be replaced, or discontinued.

Yeah this should happen, but they've recently released some good Finecast models including Eisenhorn and Sly

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

I predict that in time every Finecast model will one day either be replaced, or discontinued.

Yeah this should happen, but they've recently released some good Finecast models including Eisenhorn and Sly

 

 

They were both 2018, have any finecast models been released since?

[Brother Sidonius]

Not related at all to the above discussion, but I had an interesting idea while trying out some Horus Heresy. What if our new thing was to be able to issue challenges like in older additions? Even if it was just something the Emperor's Champion could do, I think the ability to issue challenges is awesome. What do other people think? :) 

[Brother Kraskor]

Not related at all to the above discussion, but I had an interesting idea while trying out some Horus Heresy. What if our new thing was to be able to issue challenges like in older additions? Even if it was just something the Emperor's Champion could do, I think the ability to issue challenges is awesome. What do other people think?

 

I'd love that! I feel like honest BT players should be doing this anyway (even if it has no game effect!). 

[SirJyo]

How would you port the challenge mechanic to 9th?

[Brother Kraskor]

How about something like this:

 

 

"Honourable Challenge: At the start of the Fight Phase of a turn in which the Emperor's Champion has charged, been charged, or made a Heroic Intervention, it may be eligible to make a Challenge. For it to be eligible, it must be within Engagement Range of an enemy Character or Monster, or a unit which contains a 'squad leader'-type profile (Sergeant, Champion, Exarch, Boss Nob etc.). You must nominate which model is the target of the Challenge. Your opponent can choose to accept or decline the Challenge.

 

If the Challenge is accepted, the Emperor's Champion and his nominated opponent are locked in a duel. Both must target each other with all their attacks in the Fight Phase, and may not be targeted by any other model, until the duel is resolved. The duel is resolved when either the Emperor's Champion or his opponent are destroyed, or if his opponent elects to Fall Back (note the Emperor's Champion may not elect to Fall Back from his own Challenge!). The winner of the duel scores 5 victory points. 

 

If the Challenge is declined, both the Emperor's Champion and his nominated opponent fight normally with no further effect, and 3 victory points are scored for the Emperor's Champion controlling player. "

Edited March 23, 2021 by Brother Kraskor

[Banjulhu]

So you want a rule that can draw out difficult to define models that gives a reward that may not in fact have any value in the game being played. Sounds like a perfect Black Templar rule.

Snark aside, I would limit the rule to just characters and have force the 2 models to fight multliple times in that round back and forth until one is dead rather than link it to a specific scoring mechanic.

[Medjugorje]

I think it could be more like the rule we used to have in codex 4th edtion. Just put pile up to 6" into a character, not to the closest enemy unit.

[Brother Sidonius]

How would you port the challenge mechanic to 9th?

 

Rather than having cumbersome rules to make it work exactly like it did in older editions, a Challenge could simply give your opponent an ultimatum. For example:

 

'Challenge: At the start of the Fight phase, the Emperor's Champion can declare a Challenge against an enemy unit within Engagement Range. If your opponent does not accept the Challenge, that unit immediately fails a Moral test. If your opponent accepts the Challenge, that unit and the Emperor's Champion are in a Challenge until they are no longer within Engagement Range of each other. A unit cannot be selected to Fallback while it is in a Challenge. A Challenge cannot be declared against a unit if:

• That unit is a Vehicle and does not have the Character keyword.

• The Emperor's Champion is already in a Challenge.

• The Emperor's Champion has already declared a Challenge this turn.'

 

Mechanically, a Character or Monster in combat with the Emperor's Champion can't Fallback and any other unit (except vehicles) can Fallback but fail a Moral test. 

[SirJyo]

Failing a morale test with a single model is an instant flee, the symbolic choice is weird unless there's models that cannot fail morale checks.

 

Could probably just be written as, units with the character keyword cannot fall back if in engagement range of the champion.

Any non-character infantry units chosen to fall back: fail a morale test and need to roll attrition before completing the fall back move.

[Banjulhu]

The problem here is going to be that characters that would want to fall back are unlikely to last more than one round.