GW and their recent approaches

[chapter master 454]

So lets chat. Mainly spurred from the armour compendium discussion and how people are voicing a bit of grievance over GWs business choices. So going to sort bring a main line thread to bear on that concept and GW's currently rather lack lustre decisions in some areas.

 

Do remember, it isn't all doom gloom and things go boom (and this is certainly not Dexter's lab) so while there are negatives there are positives so don't let it get you down too much but there is fair game in airing some bad blood and seeing if others agree, disagree or possibly can offer a new point of view on a topic.

 

The big hill right now is the rather odd and fairly negative practices with Forge World lately. Certainly I would agree on this end, with the main spot light on the Imperial guard though I believe marines have some axes to grind while there is a few here and there patches from Xenos. Not exactly impressed myself, while not an avid Imperial Guard player, I found the designs or the Drop Troops and Death Korp incredibly interesting and seeing the former had been completely merced some time ago and death korp by the seems getting the slow and gradual phase out for whatever reason, GW again push one narrative still that I notice and don't like: Play how we want you to play, the armies will look how we want them to look.

 

So to kick start proper, I will air my biggest gripes numbered 3.

 

"We will reduce bloat" says GW...I read the numerous captain datasheets and reply "so that was a lie?"

This is what irks me the most. Despite the "choice" of datasheets, characters have never been so restrained in load-outs. This didn't even start with captains to say the least with eldar Autarchs being "use Yriel or nothing at all" for any foot slogging autarch. The Datasheets are literally all for mainly one bespoke model, with 5 notably being for bespoke models: Indomintus Captain, Gravis Captain, Gravis Captain (electric boogaloo), Primaris Lieutenant, Primaris Lieutenant (but without his helmet). Excuse me but we just got 5 unique datasheets, pretty sure there are factions out there with LESS THAN 5 datasheets for HQs by default without anything special.

This annoys me because GW is basically trying to dictate how we equip our models and how to play them. How dare we try to optimise, experiment or make that really cool model. You will be pigeon-holed into a melee monster and like it, NO OTHER OPTIONS...and the weapons you get stuck with won't be optimally combined ether...

Alright, lets move on to another annoyance.

 

"We got rid of USR to help adjust the rules to each unit"...yet there are numerous units with deep strike that don't change how it works in the slightest with only one exception I know of being the ghostkeel...it can't appear with 12" if you are wondering.

So...the whole rules on datasheet is great but so far...anyone found any actual use of this to help make some units more bespoke or unique? We literally have USR still but now instead of "Universal Special Rules" they could now be called "Unspoken Special Rules". For all that talk yet no action and to top it off...more and more abilities keep going into stratagems. For most parts I like the concept but if we are going to a stratagem only thing...don't that smack of just USR but with more steps?

 

Finally. Legends...GW...I swear to the Emperor I will slap you (with a lightning claw).

As much as I understand the idea, it really isn't a good idea. I could understand really obscure models, maybe even really old ones that don't see much note but I find how it is being used like a waste bin for units you don't want to even recognise anymore revolting. I personally have a Land Raider Excelsior and Rhino Primaris and love them...but now worthless because they are legends.

Some may ask why the problem, but for someone like me legends is basically a dead pile. Open Play, yes. Some sort of weird Open "matched" play. But true matched play doesn't use it due to the units not getting updates, balance changes and the like. I would ask, how does one use the new land raider excelsior in Matched Play without house ruling. It doesn't work and I personally hate it. This is my most personal one to air but hey, got to air it.

 

 

Going to leave those there are as a platform to go from but lets not get too heavy into profanity or just giving one liners. Just trying to give an avenue to express some less positive feelings without de-railing another thread.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

The issue we're going to run into with this discussion, is as fans, the only power we hold is in our ability to not give GW our money.

 

I agree that not supporting units they don't produce models for is a crummy thing to do from a player perspective. When you then add to that their banning of any third party miniatures from their stores, it makes them come across as petty and boorish. On top of those issues, there is the ever-increasing cost of their kits, some of which are flatly ridiculous, and the less substantial feeling that any new kit they produce for a line has a good chance of being initially over balanced. And all of Those issues are separate from the opinions people might have about recent lore changes.

 

But what do we do about it? We can be angry, we can vote with our wallets, but at the end of the day this is the company that makes the rules us and our buddies play by. I know that I couldn't convince my Warhammer group to put down 40K and play another game. I couldn't even convince them to play an older edition. This means that I can stop playing and likely stop hanging out with them, choose only to buy the books and use my old models while being glad I don't play any of the armies that disappeared, or I can shrug my shoulders and pay the big price for the new stuff. 

 

Mechanically 9th is better than 8th. I stand by that. Crusade is the best way to play 40K that we've had for years. But 9th is worse than Sigmar, and even Sigmar has its list of issues. Sooner or later the cost of the hobby is going to outweigh the fun it can provide, or GW will make some final bad decision that pushes all of the loyal old guard away for good.

[MegaVolt87]

Positives for me are the 9th core rules and the game devs being more adventurous in breaking conventions eg. weapons changes like the heavy bolter. The missions rewarding objective play instead of kill hammer bubble castles of last edition. Getting rid of the "yo dawg I heard you like re-rolls, so here are some more re-rolls on yo re-rolls" faction rules also. 

 

Negatives are indecisive design direction. The new SM dex is this strange revival of oldmarines, while simultaneously making primaris have honeypot units (eradicators) or ones which are looking down the barrel of points increases in the next CA (bladeguard, stock redemptors). Old marines should have made a clean break from primaris at this point, primaris have enough to stand on their own, not allowing mixing with old marines leaves room for points reductions for both types and removes obnoxious oldmarine and primaris min/maxing + cherry picking combo's. Ditto for FW primaris and oldmarine units. Primaris FW just need that big stormbird equivalent, a smaller thunderhawk equivalent and a superheavy seige tank to complement the Astraeus. They don't need anything else, roll back in the old executioner rules from 8th, that was basically a FW unit in a codex, with primaris tanks with rules like that, no need for FW lighter primaris vehicles, flyers or walkers, just the big LOW's. 

 

Also there appears to be no one who actually "gets" what CSM and Xenos should be in the GW 40k dev team. If they had people who were as switched on with SM, but with CSM and Xenos also, the game would be perfect. If it were me, I would have 1-2 extra GW main devs and 1-2 extra FW specialist games devs write seperate complete drafts for 40k FW rules, then form a panel and hammer out a final version of 40k FW rules for further testing + publication. You get the best of both worlds- the crunch + power of detail from 30k design, streamlined design with novel ideas from the GW main team. Also stop this nonsense of "but its competing with GW main". Its the same company, who cares its a publicly traded company that needs to cross sell as much as it can to increase revenues and dividend payments. Roll in the 30k ad mech, the missing HH legion vehicles, knights etc. Start making the FW transitions to plastics, roll the vehicles into the codexes as time passes. Allow FW in all GW stores, rob all the store managers of their ability of discretionary gatekeeping it out of them. For a company that wants all the money EA style, GW is not reaching its full potential currently.

 

I don't want to see 40k/30k bottom out like with historicals because it can't get fresh blood with the current pricing model and all the bitter vets with deep pockets leave because they have had enough of not getting what they want to buy + play, be told what to do and buy instead- we hate that A LOT. Also 40k vets are too clever to immediately buy in straight away- most of the time. The current state of SM leaves me with no confidence in the faction currently, I only foresee nerfs and points increases if we get weaker books like Necrons for other factions, who in comparison can't get much worse but only have potential to improve later on so are in essence a smarter buy instead of hopping in front of that slot machine SM power creep/nerfs the faction is fast moving to. 

 

Thankyou for listening to my 40k TED Talk lol. 

[Cpt_Reaper]

Legends needs to just be removed. If it's not supported it's gone. Don't be all "oh no you can totally use them but not really." Rip that band-aid off.

 

My biggest complaint with Imperial Armour is that it is supposedly written by the core rules team. The idea was that this would make the bad units good and the "this is why our group bans Forge World" units more palatable. Instead we got a slapped together, head-scratching and halfbaked excuse of a rulebook for the tasty cost of $110 AUD that you can't even order through standard stores.

 

Now for the most part I have loved everything about 9th edition. The rules are the best they have been, Crusade is minty fresh and fun.

 

The issue is everything else. Characters locked into the loadout their model comes with, a strong anti-kitbash mentality and removal of customisation of models. It's time GW gets over the Chapter House debacle because this vicegrip of their IP will kill it.

 

Voting with wallets is a phrase thrown around a lot but it's getting to the point where the customer base needs to do more, and GW needs to make an official statement. We need to tell GW what they are doing is not okay and GW needs to make a statement. I don't care if it's "we won't change" as long as they explain why. if it is just "this is what we do and if you don't like it there's the door," I'll moonwalk out while flipping them off.

[Interrogator Stobz]

+++THIS TOPIC IS A DANGEROUS ONE,  PLEASE TREAD CAREFULLY+++

 

 

Carry on, it is very interesting so far....

[Dark Shepherd]

Isnt a huge part of all this the court case that they lost which led to no model no rules (and the names of Sigmar units)?

 

Legends is an attempt to ease the pain of implementing this

[AfroCampbell]

personally, as a hobbyist who is wildly into converting my armies and making them my own, I couldn't agree more with the sentiments about 'anti-kit-bash mentality'

just build kits that are even mildly amenable to kitbashing. Plz. 

 

<3 from a fan. 

(but for real do this GW). 

[Cpt_Reaper]

No model no rules is one thing, releasing models with no options at all is another. They lost the court case yet they punish their customers rather than fix the issue.

 

How many times do you see customers begging GW for Chapter shoulder pad packs, upgrade frames etc, or to return to the days where you buy three kits and mix all the options?

[Charlo]

I feel like a lot of the greavances here relate to things GW said over three years ago at the reveal of the previous edition.

 

Which if you recall, yes, they did reduce bloat, get rid of USR and provide rules for almost every model.

 

But a lot can happen in three years. 8th edition was a huge change and I think 9th has taken it to the logical conclusion. They have learnt and adapted the ruleset to make it arguably loads better.

 

No model no rules is one thing, releasing models with no options at all is another. They lost the court case yet they punish their customers rather than fix the issue.

 

How many times do you see customers begging GW for Chapter shoulder pad packs, upgrade frames etc, or to return to the days where you buy three kits and mix all the options?

 

Honestly?

 

The sculpts are better now and allow for more detailed poses there is single loadouts. Except, oh wait, there is still tonnes of choice!! Sure, some are a little jank but they match the models and thats fine. If you want to still go full customisation, for Space Marines at least, just play a first born captain instead of Primaris.

 

As for the second point.... GW literally make one or even two upgrade frames for all of the main chapters in the codex.

[Doghouse]

I do understand the logic behind the changes but I am not a fan of the direction they've taken since 8th. For me the biggest issues are the way Marines have made one course change only to course correct again later. I totally understand why they made marines two wounds but for me personally it makes the Primaris range a bit of a needless change. Somewhere along the line it feels like they had this plan set in stone for the evolution of marines but the original plan was suddenly abandoned and to me it just feels off. Obviously some will disagree but that is my personal take on it.

 

The other parts for me are books and sprues.

 

I hate the way the 8th edition handled books, needing this book for these extra rules, that book for these others rules for your army, this book for this points change, that book for another points change. I'd much rather they did a lot of this with free updates online, I'd rather be spending my money on models to be honest than cut and paste book additions.

 

I also understand why they have taken the dual sprue approach as it means they can throw in a single sprue to a set or start collecting set but for me it feels a bit souless and limiting. The biggest culprit for me there are the likes of Necromunda gangs, I've stopped buying a lot of kits now simply because it just feel so bland and duplicated. I just don't enjoy making them anymore and it feels like I am being steered to the way they want me to build them rather than how I want to.

 

Overall things are improving for the game and some changes have been good but these are just a few points that rub me up the wrong way. I may feel different once the Marine over saturation has died down and the other races get some attention. Untill then I'm holding off on my hobbying till I see where it's all going before I start buying into models again.

[MegaVolt87]

GW will make as little possible move towards free rules that doesn't require a paid rules publication. The reason is they have likely seen what happened with warmahordes/ privateer press. That system now has free main rules and army rules to play. PP released free rules between V2 and v3, and tried several times to get their players back onto paid rules by books etc but failed- players no longer wanted to pay for what they got for free for a while. Who remembers the free shadowspear CSM PDF that had no points, points locked behind the poor 2nd ed 8th CSM dex, which is then subsequently superceded by the next CA points revisions shortly after ? Two paid publications for the shadowspear stuff that could have been free rules and spent on more models- because GW is a model company first as they have said many times right?

 

GW will likely never give up it's traditional method of paid rules. PP releases rules semi publicly via its sign up CID (?) forums for public feedback before they are finalized. They have a much better engagement with their community about the development and design of their system. New GW isn't fitting into old GW's outfit anymore, it needs to complete the nessecary makeover it started.

[Karhedron]

Sooner or later the cost of the hobby is going to outweigh the fun it can provide, or GW will make some final bad decision that pushes all of the loyal old guard away for good.

The old guard do not make up the bulk of GW's customers because we already have armies and just buy the odd new unit when it comes out. The majority of GW's income comes from new players who are building up a complete army from scratch. Second are existing players who start a new faction. These players spend far more money in a short space of time than the old guard do.

 

Sadly, old Greybeards like me are not GW's core market. The biggest contribution I have probably made to GW's balance sheet in the last 5 years has been getting my kids into 40K. They have spent quite a bit more than me.

[Noserenda]

Privateers problems have less to do with free rules and a lot more to do with janky rules and treating their Pressgangers/fanatical fans badly at roughly the same time. That and some awful supply issues outside the US that made getting ahold of anything physical a pain in the backside. Free rules works fine for AoS for example, but thats a whole nother topic :D 

I like legends, it just needs updating by edition or major shifts like the ones they are currently doing with codexes it seems or the concept is completely undermined by the suddenly janky rules, much like FW has tended to over the years. 

On FW im more disappointed by the low target they have aimed for than what we actually got, so many units still in production that could do with 40k rules just ignored, even if it meant splitting the project into an Imperium book and a Everyone else book, let alone the stuff dropped by the wayside but lets hope Legends isnt so half arsed? 

Customisation? Well yeah, the Chapterhouse court case so many folks cheered on and funded killed that dead, no model, no rules. At least GW has rowed back on its no kit bashing policies a bit so we arent left completely out but the "multiple sheets for the same damn unit" thing is a pain in the backside that needs stopping even if we get the super techncial loadouts we are seeing, like "the codex demands you use a plasma pistol with a powerfist captain!" nonsense. arrrrgh. Why couldnt Chapterhouse just wind their neck in and stick to the same invisible rules everyone else did. Im glad their "win" killed the company at least as its messed the hobby up for literally everyone else.

Still bitter obviously :D 

                                  

[Urauloth]

I don't mind paying for rules. I mind not being able to buy lore/art without also paying for rules for systems I don't play, but that's a lost cause. What I really object to is not being able to buy either in the format I want to read them in. Please let me buy a new codex and put it in my ebook library with all the others.

[WrathOfTheLion]

For the second point, I think they have changed scope that rules are at to be more like USRs again. They aren't quite game-level rules, but they have taken a lot of them and moved them as faction-level rules, such as DS for terminators.

[chapter master 454]

+++THIS TOPIC IS A DANGEROUS ONE,  PLEASE TREAD CAREFULLY+++

 

 

Carry on, it is very interesting so far....

 

I was well aware this is a dangerous topic to open and certainly full of worms but let us be frank among brothers: many have axes to grind and if not given a suitable stage to grind them upon they may grind them where they aren't wanted and result in many threads turning sour. Not saying we can't control ourselves but I saw rising tensions in new threads and thought..."I have my own axe to grind, lets get this out in the open". That way, eventually this will sink to the bottom as a collective sump of our grievances and also helps us remember what we do like.

[WrathOfTheLion]

For a gripe I have, it is with support from FW for its game systems, especially AoD.

 

AoD hasn't had a plastic kit in 4 years. Smaller games have one every three months. Can we not get a basic range, especially to replace some really aged kits like the Deimos Rhino and the MK IV assault squad?

 

As well, there were only a few things that went with Book 9: Crusade, including only 1 kit for the Night Lords, announced in March this year. It is now November, two months after book 9 released, and it still isn't out! This kit was shown off way back when Ghazghkull and Ragnar were announced. Their box has been released, had their obligatory 6 month window and even had their separate release during this time.

 

Seeing it be lapped, where they can't get these out even with a major release, but will announce a new Necromunda thing and have it out two weeks later ends up being quite frustrating.

 

I think they have completely dropped the ball with even basic support for that game system, especially this year. In general, I think they are trying to support too many things. How FW expects to be able to handle further projects like the new fantasy completely eludes me.

Edited November 3, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Joe]

Isnt a huge part of all this the court case that they lost which led to no model no rules (and the names of Sigmar units)?

 

Legends is an attempt to ease the pain of implementing this

 

Interestingly, the judge was prepared to rule in GW's favour on the pauldron issue - they'd already ruled in GW's favour on just over 1/3rd of the individual claims they'd brought against Chapter House. The jury disagreed in the end.

 

 

 

Upon independent examination, the Court finds that GW’s shoulder pads involve enough originality to afford them copyright protection. The unusually large proportional size of the shoulder pads as compared to the Space Marine’s head (depicted in GW’s product at entry 49) is a creative addition to the common shoulder pads sometimes worn by real-life soldiers in battle. The shoulder pads created to fit onto GW’s physical figurines, though more proportionally accurate, are nevertheless still larger and boxier than those typically found outside of the Warhammer 40,000 fantasy world. The Court thus concludes that GW is entitled to copyright protection as to the design of its shoulder pads.

 

That aside, I have issues with the current approach, but they aren't rules based - it's tied to the eBook support (lack of art / lore) and the general diminishment of the Games Workshop website over what it once was, i.e. the massive bevy of modelling and painting articles that used to be available. Whilst WarCom has done a fine job so far on Youtube, there's still ground they need to revisit to really have my full support.

 

As far as rules go? I've said it before - 40k has far more content than other systems, and as such it's a monumental effort to balance that properly. It'll never be "perfect", and the best we can hope for is a healthy middle-ground at best.

[MARK0SIAN]

I really wish they’d change the ‘no model, no rules’ approach. It’s so limiting from a hobby perspective.

 

It’s also even more ridiculous when they take it to the extremes. Someone has already mentioned that to give a captain a power fist you also have to give him a plasma pistol because that’s exactly what the model has. Never mind that Sergeants aren’t similarly restricted.

 

Then you had what was probably the most ludicrous example of it in my mind: They finally introduce Death Company intercessors BUT only one of them could take a chainsword because (you guessed it) there was only one chainsword in a box of intercessors. That’s right, the Blood Angels could apparently only scrounge up enough chainswords (a weapon freely given to imperial guard sergeants) to give one to every ten of their honoured death company.

 

So it’s not just no models no rules, it’s also you must build it exactly as it is on the box. I’m really hoping we see a departure from this approach soon as I think it’s not a healthy approach to encourage variety.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

In regards to forgeworld I give gw kudos for taking responsibility and writing the rules for 40K units. Honestly I don’t want any more Chappie Dread/Leviathan fiascos. Overall they are doing a great job.

[TrawlingCleaner]

For the No model, No rules front I can see both sides.

 

On one hand, the customisation issue seems to only be with new marine kits specifically Primaris. I can't think of a range other than this that has any real wargear restrictions, or loss in the wargear they can take.

Firstborn don't have this issue at all and I wonder why that is, is it to do with beginners? Or ease of balancing? Or is it the lawsuit?

To mention AoS, I know that Sigmarines had the same issue intercessors and the like had as every member of the squad had to take the same weapons, no special weapons no upgrades on the sergants. I think we're starting to see that change with the Heavy intercessors (the heavy bolters) and Bladeguard (volkite) where they come with some customisation.

Surely it would make GW way more money if they just said that any customisation Firstborn get, Primaris get.

 

On the other hand, being able to do whatever you like with sergent and squad upgrades or character upgrades is supremly overwhelming for new players. Buy this seperate kit for a good weapon that is few and far between elsewhere. How on earth would you go about balancing something like that too? Would you point units upgrades differently depending on which unit took them? Its really just more variables to break.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I love the infiltrator/incussor kit... there’s so many dynamic poses possible.

[chapter master 454]

New poses are nice but I like to think GW aren't going to just pigeon hole armies via this method. If it keeps up, we can't pick what we like and create a narrative out of it. "oh so your captain has a power fist and plasma pistol too? What are the chances" "wow you went with the shield and sword too, such a small world".

 

I come from speaking both competitively (but not tournament top table level...in fact I see myself more as a competitive spirited player) and narratively, I like trying to create a load-out for my captains that speaks of their story and methods. 2nd company captain takes the classic Plasma Pistol Power Sword combo because he is an "all comers" kind of marine, prefers the flex but 1st company takes to the field in terminator armour, storm shield and thunder hammer with his retinue of tactical terminators (all with chainfists) because he is about breaking the enemy upon his shield and his armour. 3rd company likes his attacks fast hard and without pause so takes to field on a bike while 4th company bears the mistakes of his past and carries a thunder hammer and seeks to put down those that would halt his marine's advance!

 

I don't mind making some narrative for a few select locked-in load outs, not hard. But when all 10 slots have to be filled by "option A, B or F" that is when it gets tedious and just not fun. I can handle limited poses on troops but now the opposite problem has happened: we once had limited pose troops with more varied HQs, now we have limited pose HQs with varied pose troops!

 

Oh and yea, the lack of E-Pub files is just daft. It is just money on the table waiting to be got that is far more sure-fire than the rather pathetic app (gave a look at it...not bad but extremely clinical and not exactly...exciting).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The posing restrictions is due the problems they encountered with Chapterhouse and to be Frank I don’t blame them... they were in serious deep water and have learned their collective lesson. Try putting yourself in their shoes rather than just thinking about what you want. Often they have good reason for their business practices. I do lots of cool conversions using their chapter specific sprues and third party bits. If you don’t like their character generation maybe send them an email and tell them Frank told you lolz. Edited November 3, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Varizel]

Just to vent,

 

I don't like Transhuman or the new Ghazgkhull / C'tan damage limitations.

For modelling, some of the bits ... lacking in the sprue for Chaos.

 

Transhuman basically just negated a lot of upgrades people already pay for High Strength Weapon. Oh? You got an autocannon? pfft it only hits as hard as bolter. That giant chainsword on Knights? Pffftt... glorified sharper chainswords with more damage. Doesn't even make sense that the marines bodies are harder to wound than dreadnought body. Granted it was nerfed a bit that it only works for Primaris, but i wish they changed it to maybe half the wound (min of 1).

 

For new Ghaz/C'tan damage limitations... it just works wonky against some armies. Sure, it can be handled by armies that can wound on most of their phases (like Nids), but it makes some weird shenanigans like C'tan moving to objective carelessly and if you can only wound in one or 2 phases, you're sol and the necron player just laughed because he knows that you won't kill him until he maxed out his VP..

 

For lacking bits on sprue, well.. CSM can't even make the cheapest loadout on their termie squad on all their dudes ... which is their basic loadout of Chainaxe + Combi Bolters. No combi weapons bits at all for normal marines besides the one on characters. GW expected me to buy CSM terminators to chop off their combi bolters? HAH. Sure i can get creative and maybe model them with extra bits, but with the asking  price GW now asked... i shouldn't have to. I was more amendable to do so if CSM box costs like 45 bux.

 

My 2 cents.