GW and their recent approaches

[Dark Shepherd]

They wouldnt view stopping piracy as being greedy

 

IIRC they stopped the digital only White Dwarf (possibly brought back abridged version?) which put a lot of people out and made a lot less sense

 

Not going to argue the app hasnt been bungled by any means

[Varizel]

The app should've been the way to go if they insists with this Living Rules thing they try to implement. But they should also at least offer the digital Codes only or something instead of forcing people to buy the hardback book. If GW don't want to give stipend to google or apple for opening a store in their apps, they could just sell the code on Warhammer digital/Games-workshop online store where they just mailed you a generated code to be inputted into My Warhammer (or whatever it is called). It's just mind boggling in the way the apps is being handled.

[Karhedron]

I wish they would but because of how greedy GW is they won't go back. Harder to pirate stuff in the app. I just vote with my wallet. After I finish my current DG army, I'm not collecting a second. The whole app thing was the last straw for me.

Not wanting their products stolen makes them greedy? I am not sure the App is a good approach but given that most forms of DRM seem to get cracked pretty quickly, i am not sure what a better alternative is.

 

Granted GW don't have the costs associated with printing physical copies for EPubs but they still have put the work into writing the content and taking the photographs for it.

[Dark Shepherd]

The app should've been the way to go if they insists with this Living Rules thing they try to implement. But they should also at least offer the digital Codes only or something instead of forcing people to buy the hardback book. If GW don't want to give stipend to google or apple for opening a store in their apps, they could just sell the code on Warhammer digital/Games-workshop online store where they just mailed you a generated code to be inputted into My Warhammer (or whatever it is called). It's just mind boggling in the way the apps is being handled.

Foes anyone know how many devices (at once) the codes work on? Have seen a fair few for sale and/or being passed around?

[Noserenda]

The app is worthless if you do list building on a pc, especially if you do so because your phone is old and rubbish :(

Im happy to buy epubs but if GW isnt providing a legit way to have e-codexes by the time lockdown is over and i can play games again its highly likely ill just find the inevitable PDFs online somewhere. 

Basically taking away legit e-codexes does not stop piracy but it does leave piracy as the only option for those who prefer them.

[MARK0SIAN]

I don’t think anyone would argue that trying to stop piracy is a bad idea in principle. However the cost of what you have to do to stop it might not always be worth it which is where I think we are at with digital codexes.

 

The cost of stopping/limiting the digital piracy is to annoy a lot of paying customers who want a digital version and lose the sales from people who would only buy a digital one. Is that worth it considering the codexes were still profitable in 8th? GW either thinks it is or it’s part of a broader strategy to force people to use the app.

 

Personally I think it’s not a good strategy due to how much goodwill it burns from the community but GW have shown time and again that their business model is largely immune to annoying their customers.

Edited November 15, 2020 by MARK0SIAN

[chapter master 454]

ok so going to bring a point I want to make about something that occured within the tome keeper thread in the space marines section because this is going to be about their approach and not about the tome keepers who themselves have opened can of worms and set some pretty rotten precedents.

 

ChapterHouse. Lets get the rung out right here, I may not fully know the breadth of what that entailed but I will say that at this point, many people have moved on and many may not even be aware of it yet GW are the only ones being draconian with their approaches here. The cycles round to the asinine wargear restriction of primaris marines yet the Tome Keepers get a special character who openly flaunts that concept. "no model, no rule" was the apparent approach GW has yet we are getting multiple occasions where GW can't make up their minds, settle on a style and keep breaking rules because they feel like it. "if you want customisation, use firstborn" is not valid because that isn't my statement and question: WHY are primaris HQs so pigeon holed into specific load-outs?

 

For those who say that the poses of the commander kit and various other kits is stale then your argument shoots back immediately on yourself: ALL primaris kits are stale by default with no pose variants. In fact, if you got enough boxes of Primaris you could indeed have 10 Intercessors all have the EXACT same pose, hm, sort of like back when we have the old snap fit marines who hug their guns tight. The limiting of options (as is my argument) is NOT beneficial to game health and actively HARMFUL to the long term viability of sales.

I will state there is still reason to purchase firstborn kits beyond when you have had your fill of that unit because it can have parts for conversions of weapons you want, that includes the commander kit. All Primaris kits are "buy 3, done". Only the troop options can have sales above 3 and that's just the nature of troops.

My argument is that the Primaris line is doomed to eventually run out as it can only sell so much before it needs new things for people to buy to continue. "Right, got my 3 executioners. Now I don't need more" and that assumes a player will collect 3 of the model, which is pretty bold considering price hikes (yikes).

 

In all irony I am arguing for the health of Primaris, not against it. By giving options, loadouts and variance to models, even if it is simple and stupid things like torso angles, arm up or down, it is a minor detail that improves a model's ability to stand out. By all accounts I think units like the Intercessors and Hellblasters are fine, they have options that are nice subtle changes that while not major, give a unit the ability to be interesting to play with. They need these options to keep going and for there to be a reason to enjoy the models other than "and to do model D again for the 50th time".

It is silly and harmful. So when time comes, ether firstborn continue to be de facto better sellers than primaris overall because their kits actually have buying power beyond just the unit or GW just axes firstborn and everyone has the exact same models, just with different paint. Oh...how exciting: Yellow Primaris vs. Green Primaris...truly, I can tell these are distinct armies and factions.

 

Move on. They really need to. I would actually go as far to say that most if not all of the community has moved on from the chapter house event but GW never got past the day after it.

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

I wish they would but because of how greedy GW is they won't go back. Harder to pirate stuff in the app. I just vote with my wallet. After I finish my current DG army, I'm not collecting a second. The whole app thing was the last straw for me.

Not wanting their products stolen makes them greedy? I am not sure the App is a good approach but given that most forms of DRM seem to get cracked pretty quickly, i am not sure what a better alternative is.

 

Granted GW don't have the costs associated with printing physical copies for EPubs but they still have put the work into writing the content and taking the photographs for it.

No, the company is just greedy, that's why I said them in two seperate sentences. Their profit margins and total profit for a table top wargaming/modeling company is quite high. The canceling of the epub is the canceling of a service, one that I like and used. I had multiple codexes that I purchased and used digitally. The app clearly has its issues and I am not a fan.

 

Trying to prevent piracy against themselves is not inherently being greedy, but canceling a service to funnel people to a crappier more expensive service for the sake of piracy is pretty greedy in my book.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Chapterhouse was a big deal and should not be down played. GW IP was on the line in the US. GeeDub sent Allan Merrit to make their case and totally flubbed it... he is no longer with the company by the way. Part of the fallout was GeeDub restructuring their overall processes and practices. AoS came about and 40K was completely overhauled. Gone were the days of the company being run by a CEO whom never once played any of their games and looked down on them. The new CEO is a grognard which is a big deal. TLDR Chapterhouse was a big deal and completely changed how the company operates now. 

[Noserenda]

Chapterhouse was a big deal and should not be down played. GW IP was on the line in the US. GeeDub sent Allan Merrit to make their case and totally flubbed it... he is no longer with the company by the way. Part of the fallout was GeeDub restructuring their overall processes and practices. AoS came about and 40K was completely overhauled. Gone were the days of the company being run by a CEO whom never once played any of their games and looked down on them. The new CEO is a grognard which is a big deal. TLDR Chapterhouse was a big deal and completely changed how the company operates now. 

I mean in a broad sense you are right but all the details are wrong... 

 

The case was an inconclusive mess, and it hardly rests solely on Merret  (Or any one person tbh) who retired for various other reasons afaik, not really Chapterhouse. The main fallout from Chapterhouse was "no model, no rules" and more protectable names like Astra militarum and Aelf. It didnt really change the way the company was run. The Old CEO left again for various reasons, not Chapterhouse and from what id heard the current guy is by no means a grognard, he just took the sensible view that market research and just general marketing is a proven thing, which it turns out he was completely right about :D 

 

So yeah Chapterhouse mad everything incrementally a bit crappier but they hardly caused an internal collapse :D 

[Bryan Blaire]

I can't see the "no model, no rules" thing from Chapterhouse being an influence in the options - if it is, that's dumb. No one could argue that GW doesn't make a model of a power axe, etc. The ruling that influenced that was one about GW claiming that no be else could make a model based on their name and 2D artwork - this is not how IP protection works, especially for copyright, which very much revolves around the media something is made with. You can't own copyright on a model you don't produce, and you can't prevent someone else from making said model from another media laying out the blueprint for them on how to do it. You can't even stop them from calling it something that wasn't otherwise Trademarked by you either. Once someone does make a model of something, they very much can prevent you from selling said model, because they basically got there first (especially since both models would lie,lay be very similar/damn near identical).

 

The "only options in the rules based on what's sold in the kits" seems to be more to do with bad feels from little Johnny and his DDdy Warbucks, namely that you may get bad feels when you go and find out that the option you really wanted to make a model with (especially if it's "better" rules-wise) isn't in the box you bought to make said model with, and you have to go buy another box (or even two) to make it. That leads to "war profiteering" allegations and feels-bads, and while I get that particular concept (hey, it helps limit some social media backlash - obviously doesn't prevent all of it - on a specific subject), I still think it's dumb. It seems like there could be other ways to make sure those feels-bads might be lessened, but in reality, they probably feel a lot less heat from the converting community/those that want more options than they do from folks that are happy with just putting together some figures and rolling some bones.

 

Plus, while I understand that it also gives them less options to have to try and balance, and generally helps make things more straightforward overall, I still think it's dumb.

 

There's not a "no model, no rules" issue involved in the lack options argument, it doesn't really make legal sense. They do produce model pieces already that cover the options legally for them.

 

People should really stop misconstruing the Chapterhouse suit as if another company could have taken all of GW's IP away - that couldn't have happened - GW would have had to give their IP away by not defending it. GW both won some things, and secured legal coverage for some things, as well as lost some things claimed as legally protected by them (such as being able to prevent others from using the Maltese cross as iconography on models in association with the Black Templars name) and very much had lines legally defined for them about what they could and couldn't claim due to lack of uniqueness, general use, public domain, elements of antiquity, etc. Given what some things in the case involved, there were elements that were pretty much slam dunk for GW because of how unique they were - the court wouldn't have sided against them in those elements, and didn't (juries are a totally different story). GW did have to defend their claim on everything though, to be able to contest and retain them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

Chapterhouse was a big deal and should not be down played. GW IP was on the line in the US. GeeDub sent Allan Merrit to make their case and totally flubbed it... he is no longer with the company by the way. Part of the fallout was GeeDub restructuring their overall processes and practices. AoS came about and 40K was completely overhauled. Gone were the days of the company being run by a CEO whom never once played any of their games and looked down on them. The new CEO is a grognard which is a big deal. TLDR Chapterhouse was a big deal and completely changed how the company operates now. 

I mean in a broad sense you are right but all the details are wrong... 

 

The case was an inconclusive mess, and it hardly rests solely on Merret  (Or any one person tbh) who retired for various other reasons afaik, not really Chapterhouse. The main fallout from Chapterhouse was "no model, no rules" and more protectable names like Astra militarum and Aelf. It didnt really change the way the company was run. The Old CEO left again for various reasons, not Chapterhouse and from what id heard the current guy is by no means a grognard, he just took the sensible view that market research and just general marketing is a proven thing, which it turns out he was completely right about  

 

So yeah Chapterhouse mad everything incrementally a bit crappier but they hardly caused an internal collapse

 

.

Sorry but you’re wrong I followed the trial very closely including transcripts that were made available. Merrit was let go and Kirby basically left rather than being let go by the board... there was also the huge fiasco concerning all the money his wife made wrecking their website. One of the qualifications to be the CEO was they had to be an active gamer. :D A big reason why models are made the way they are now is because of Chapterhouse.

[Noserenda]

 

.

 

Sorry but you’re wrong I followed the trial very closely including transcripts that were made available. Merrit was let go and Kirby basically left rather than being let go by the board... there was also the huge fiasco concerning all the money his wife made wrecking their website. One of the qualifications to be the CEO was they had to be an active gamer. A big reason why models are made the way they are now is because of Chapterhouse.

 

I mean you are wrong, and you even back my up by mentioning other reasons Kirby left in your own post? The Simple fact was he had been running the company down for years with various bad and even dodgy decisions (As was arguably Merret) and eventually that came to a head and they jumped before they got pushed. I dont think the dates even line up particularly closely off the top of my head, Merret in particular leaving some years after the court case?

 

Id also dispute that gamer = grognard, anyone working for GW for as long as Roundtree has almost certainly has some interest in the game or company or he would be off making more money somewhere else, but there is a big difference between someone who plays a bit and the terrible creatures who live the game :D *looks around furtively*

 

If you really need a single event that changed GW radically, id look at the absolute failure that was AoS before the generals handbook fixed it tbh. 

[Noserenda]

And yes, i can confirm directly from a games designer at the time that lack of options is specifically to do with "no model, no rules" as going forward every kit will have all its options on sprue, the only reason hobbit marines kept theirs is for legacy purposes, no particular grand design. The intent was that narrative gamers and the like could just use the separate points values or power level and convert whatever they fancied but that was never communicated well if at all, a victim i think of the weird narrative bubble they tend to live in which is different to 40k in the wild most places.

That was right at the start of 8th though, clearly that rule has been relaxed a bit since at least on sergeants thankfully but it continues on characters, i personally cant think of anything new released since then that has more than one or two options, all on sprue.

 

[Bryan Blaire]

And yes, i can confirm directly from a games designer at the time that lack of options is specifically to do with "no model, no rules" as going forward every kit will have all its options on sprue

Well, seems like there was a possible over-reaction to the ruling, then, because from what I recall of the legal record, the model issues mostly were with things that were common use/historical in nature or that GW didn't produce at all, but were seeking to protect in other media. They do make models of thunder hammers, power axes, lightning claws, and bolt carbines, so all those kinds of items that could be options would already be protected under the law (although you likely also can't stop a third-party creator from making those things either, since they likely fall into a "common domain" concept-wise, but it would be interesting to see a case around specific items).

 

Seems more likely that the lack of options is specifically to limit third party add-ons then (no need to buy that cool Night Lords axe, because you can't use it on that guy anyway, etc.).

[Joe]

To be fair I can think of a few kits that were missing all the options they ought to have had when they originally released. The previous Chaos Space Marines kit, as an example... or the previous Tactical Squad. It's unfortunate, but you can't fit every option on a single sprue in some cases without cutting corners elsewhere, or jacking the price up to accomodate for that.

 

However, Games Workshop historically supplemented missing options on the sprue with external blister releases (see: Imperial Guard /w special weapons). We're long past those being a thing (beyond occasional characters and faction-specific upgrade sprues), which has led to our present situation.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Like I said what I’ve stated are facts provided by transcripts and some insider information as well. 

[Cpt_Reaper]

I wanted to say, again, how much I disagree with GW's new policy but I am just repeating myself.

 

I don't care they lost the court case. I don't care what their reasons are for their modern practices. I care that I am being restricted in my hobby choices when I had those choices recently. Today it is Primaris, tomorrow the whole of 40k.

 

Now I need to go talk about some positive aspects of my beloved hobby before this thread breaks my heart any more.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think they are much better now for it.

[Bung]

Well every company that makes something does need to ensure it can defend its products and the like. I’m surprised it was only chapterhouse that led to a huge court case, and that it took as long as it did to get there. Could be a blessing in disguise all this stuff was caught now and not down the road more. GW even has guilt in where it gets its original ideas from so it’s not like they’re only victims in all this.

They wouldnt have much chance in an EU country.

There are so much 3rd party producers in scale modelling that they just would be told to suck it up until there is some explicit name / designcopy violation.

But anything that Kromlech and others do is still in line with laws.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Bung

[Volt]

Like I said what I’ve stated are facts provided by transcripts and some insider information as well. 

Is this also coming from the same insider source that works at Nintendo and provided completely wrong information on the latest marine release?

 

As for GW, do we even know that Rountree plays warhammer? All I know is that he's the former CFO, which speaks more that his success is because he has been literally in charge of the numbers showing what releases worked and what didn't, not because he's somehow in tap with the "gamers".

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

 

Like I said what I’ve stated are facts provided by transcripts and some insider information as well.

Is this also coming from the same insider source that works at Nintendo and provided completely wrong information on the latest marine release?

Probably the same "insider" that told him firstborn marines were staying at 1W haha.

[Evil Eye]

The Chapterhouse debacle could have been entirely avoided if CH had just done what literally every other 3P bits manufacturer does and not actually used official GW terminology and names whilst advertising their products. I'm not anti-3P in the slightest but explicitly calling the totally-not-a-Tervigon kit "Tyranid Tervigon conversion kit" was just plain daft and was inviting legal trouble.

I don't much like the limited loadout options nowadays (though it mainly seems to be a problem for Space Marines, who quite frankly have more than enough shiny toys anyway and have no right to be complaining about not having enough options) but I didn't like key units going for years without getting models either. There's a middle ground to be had for certain, but the other extreme, which is what we had before, was hardly great.

 

Though I will say, I find it quite ironic that some people will bemoan the loss of the ability to give a Primaris Lieutenant a power axe instead of a power sword and then in the same breath complain that every faction should have completely standardized weapons and wargear with no real flavour or distinction between them. Somewhat self-defeating, I feel.

[Bryan Blaire]

Though I will say, I find it quite ironic that some people will bemoan the loss of the ability to give a Primaris Lieutenant a power axe instead of a power sword and then in the same breath complain that every faction should have completely standardized weapons and wargear with no real flavour or distinction between them. Somewhat self-defeating, I feel. :teehee:

Who's doing that? I don't think I've seen any "same breath" posts like that.

 

Personally, we could just return to "power weapons" and that would be fine with me - best of both worlds for conversions - would make the rules a bit more sticky with regards to some of the Relics though.

 

Everyone has the same right to complain - there's not a limit based on anything. :teehee:

[Evil Eye]

 

Though I will say, I find it quite ironic that some people will bemoan the loss of the ability to give a Primaris Lieutenant a power axe instead of a power sword and then in the same breath complain that every faction should have completely standardized weapons and wargear with no real flavour or distinction between them. Somewhat self-defeating, I feel.

Who's doing that? I don't think I've seen any "same breath" posts like that.

 

Personally, we could just return to "power weapons" and that would be fine with me - best of both worlds for conversions - would make the rules a bit more sticky with regards to some of the Relics though.

 

Everyone has the same right to complain - there's not a limit based on anything.

 

Ah, that would be naming names. But individuals within this thread have in previous discussions put forward the suggestion of completely standardizing weapons across the game (so "Basic assault gun" etc), which doesn't to me at least quite gel with the idea of wanting full customization options for everyone.

 

Personally I quite like having bespoke profiles for different weapons, though I feel the actual execution could be better. I would definitely agree that some of the limitations for weapon options are rather odd and annoying (Noxious Blightbringers only being able to use plasma pistols for example, and likewise the utter lack of options on the Lord of Contagion), but at the same time I do feel like with the transition to everything being in plastic it's a little inevitable. It's not like before when they could make a thousand different sculpts of unit champion/lieutenant/whatever in metal, with the much cheaper moulding process that entails. They've gotten better with it to be fair; the Sisters of Battle Canoness has a surprising amount of alternate parts for example, even if she is somewhat monopose, and there's always going to be the dilemma of range of options/poses versus level of detail and quality/fluidity of overall sculpt.