GW and their recent approaches

[smileyjim]

That's the thing smileyjim, they weren't just OP they were so OP I am still angry at it several editions later. To Tau, and Eldar, players that may seem petty but those two factions nearly made me quit the game. Never since 4th edtion when I started did I literally get tabled before I got a turn. That's the type of event that causes me to hold a grudge.

I get it mate I've had those experiences to, just gotta move on. Think of it this way, if GW ever fixed tau and made them a faction that people like to play against and play with them the game as a whole will be better. I know that during those times there where alit if tau players that didn't enjoy those games as much as you... you know the ones with souls;)

[armarnis]

This is basically the golden age of Warhammer40k... truly is amazing to me how far they have come and what they can do now.

 

are you serious? i feel its more like the dark ages are knocking on the door.

 

im really fed up with the company right now, everything is so utterly fantastic, great and awesome, it makes me wonder how much the dudes at the preview shows are being paid for being able to keep a straight face while telling us that.

 

while i like the 9th edition mechanic wise as an improvement over 8th i feel the clutter of rules and thingies and bookkeeping is growing rampant all around me. and i have no hopes they are reigning it in with the new dexes. turning essential functions of units and vehicles into stratagems seem to be a clever move but it makes you wonder, why is it they push sales with overpowered special rules still? eradicators needing to be fed a CP each turn for double fire would work wonders but it works thrice per turn but only a single rhino can blow some smokelaunchers?

 

its these little details that gives us glimpses behind the oh so friendly face.

[ThePenitentOne]

 

This is basically the golden age of Warhammer40k... truly is amazing to me how far they have come and what they can do now.

 

are you serious? i feel its more like the dark ages are knocking on the door.

 

im really fed up with the company right now, everything is so utterly fantastic, great and awesome, it makes me wonder how much the dudes at the preview shows are being paid for being able to keep a straight face while telling us that.

 

while i like the 9th edition mechanic wise as an improvement over 8th i feel the clutter of rules and thingies and bookkeeping is growing rampant all around me. and i have no hopes they are reigning it in with the new dexes. turning essential functions of units and vehicles into stratagems seem to be a clever move but it makes you wonder, why is it they push sales with overpowered special rules still? eradicators needing to be fed a CP each turn for double fire would work wonders but it works thrice per turn but only a single rhino can blow some smokelaunchers?

 

its these little details that gives us glimpses behind the oh so friendly face.

 

 

If you don't like book keeping, you probably hate Crusade. I've been waiting for it since 1989, and I think it's the best thing to ever happen to 40k.

 

The fact that rebooted Sisters and Genestealer Cults on top of that, well that just put it over the top for me.

 

Question: Do you play multiple armies? I find many people who have issues with bloat feel that way because they want to memorize all the rules for every faction rather than just worrying about the factions they actually play. There are a fair number of datasheets that could be consolidated, of course- don't mean to imply otherwise. But sometimes what players describe as bloat feels like really valuable content to me.

 

I'm kinda weird though- for me, games are always better when they have more content- especially when they are designed in such a way that I can pick and choose what to use and what not to use. I wish we were still in either AD&D or 3.5- we'd have 20-30 different campaign settings to choose from by now. In 40k terms, if they had stuck with Rogue Trader, we could have full ranges for all the factions that currently exist- just imagine if there were as many models for all of our factions as there are Space Marines. I love 9th, but I'd go back to rogue Trader if it meant I could have 150 kits for Sisters, GSC and Dark Eldar. It is always the stupid edition reset button and the re-releasing of everything that's already been done that prevents this from happening.

 

Of course, there have been huge improvements to both the game and existing ranges due to those resets too- I'm not blind to that. But wow do I wish every faction had a minimum of 5 vehicle kits, a flyer, a lord of war, multiple troop choices and multiple HQ options. If 2021 is good for Xenos, we might get a heck of a lot closer. Here's hoping.

[armarnis]

 

 

This is basically the golden age of Warhammer40k... truly is amazing to me how far they have come and what they can do now.

 

are you serious? i feel its more like the dark ages are knocking on the door.

 

im really fed up with the company right now, everything is so utterly fantastic, great and awesome, it makes me wonder how much the dudes at the preview shows are being paid for being able to keep a straight face while telling us that.

 

while i like the 9th edition mechanic wise as an improvement over 8th i feel the clutter of rules and thingies and bookkeeping is growing rampant all around me. and i have no hopes they are reigning it in with the new dexes. turning essential functions of units and vehicles into stratagems seem to be a clever move but it makes you wonder, why is it they push sales with overpowered special rules still? eradicators needing to be fed a CP each turn for double fire would work wonders but it works thrice per turn but only a single rhino can blow some smokelaunchers?

 

its these little details that gives us glimpses behind the oh so friendly face.

 

 

If you don't like book keeping, you probably hate Crusade. I've been waiting for it since 1989, and I think it's the best thing to ever happen to 40k.

 

The fact that rebooted Sisters and Genestealer Cults on top of that, well that just put it over the top for me.

 

Question: Do you play multiple armies? I find many people who have issues with bloat feel that way because they want to memorize all the rules for every faction rather than just worrying about the factions they actually play. There are a fair number of datasheets that could be consolidated, of course- don't mean to imply otherwise. But sometimes what players describe as bloat feels like really valuable content to me.

 

I'm kinda weird though- for me, games are always better when they have more content- especially when they are designed in such a way that I can pick and choose what to use and what not to use. I wish we were still in either AD&D or 3.5- we'd have 20-30 different campaign settings to choose from by now. In 40k terms, if they had stuck with Rogue Trader, we could have full ranges for all the factions that currently exist- just imagine if there were as many models for all of our factions as there are Space Marines. I love 9th, but I'd go back to rogue Trader if it meant I could have 150 kits for Sisters, GSC and Dark Eldar. It is always the stupid edition reset button and the re-releasing of everything that's already been done that prevents this from happening.

 

Of course, there have been huge improvements to both the game and existing ranges due to those resets too- I'm not blind to that. But wow do I wish every faction had a minimum of 5 vehicle kits, a flyer, a lord of war, multiple troop choices and multiple HQ options. If 2021 is good for Xenos, we might get a heck of a lot closer. Here's hoping.

 

 

 

i skimmed the rules for crusade but boy, it looks unncessessary complicated, albeit i admit it looks like a good way to start group intern build up projects! but its not particular itching my needs, the pessimist in me sees a long term assault on player wallets by another layer of addons coming sooner or later!

 

about your question if i play multiple armies, of course i do! but in 8th edition i focussed on marines and death guard. my gripe is that while the one book of it is literally overblown with silly options (especially now with the 9th ed marines book) for different loadouts (why not simply give a single page for captains? tack on a profile for a each iteration (primaris, firstborn, terminator) and available options below. its just BEYOND my little mind why a captain in mark vii armor can decide he wants to wield a lightning claw and a gun but the primaris can not just because he has some fancy new organs in his body!

 

and its not only a problem for marines! when the DG departed for the plagueplanet in the eye, did someone from the other legions build a toll stop at the jump point and collected all fancy gear? "ohhh you are the plague boys, gimme your stuff, all nurgle permits are blunt knifes and swords fellas, too bad for ya!"

 

its forcing me onto design rails that going in the wrong direction! but we wanted to talk about bloat a bit more, the bloat i mean is buying an expensive book but NOT getting the full package out of it. why did they "cut" content for the PA books out of it? i would have bought more than just engine war (because i wanted to start a new ad mech army) if the content would have been any good. not only is the story inside laughably bad written but its all about buying that few pages of extra rules content out of it.

 

and we see this trend going all around 9th already. we already got several mission packs, terrain packs, even the first big bunch of army rules is not core rules for armies in dire need of it (i am looking at you chaos demons and tau!) but marines. because marines players can be milked until the end times!

 

content is great but it must be detached from rules and they must stop trying to balance armies by giving them strong rules in addon books! grey knights for example had a big push by their psychic awakening but those rules did not belong into a campaign book, it should have been in their codex!

[Scribe]

Yeah, Crusade is just not something I'm remotely interested in working with.

 

Take us back to 5th edition please...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Better late than never.

[Azekai]

I like elements of Crusade. The missions are fun (and avoid the already stale ITC-lite secondaries). Building a narrative is cool and getting unique relics and the like is all well and good. The new campaign book dealing with the Nexus Pariah was neat.

The bookkeeping is kind of horrendous, no two ways about it. I can't even find a good sheet for record keeping, they are all kludgey. I suspect that is just the nature of the beast, due to there being a lot of information to track.

[smileyjim]

Yeah, Crusade is just not something I'm remotely interested in working with.

 

Take us back to 5th edition please...

Pfft 5th?

First edition is the one we should play using only original models and factions. Then after we set up the armies we spend the next 2 hours complaining and reminiscing about how the games changed and how much better the game was when it didn't exist.

[Cpt_Reaper]

I'll agree that we need to stop looking back to "good edtions". I can guarentee that during 5th edition people were complainging that it was the worst edition ever and the game was dead, but once 6th dropped it was the best editioon ever and we went too far.

 

9th Edtion has just started. There are two codexes. The rules bloat was in 8th. Let us wait for a few more books before declaring 9th is the edtion that ruined the game this week.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think fifth was a great edition except for how armor worked. Sixth introduced heavy allies (yuck) and USRs. To me eighth harkens back to 3rd edition because lots of restrictions were lifted. I think the biggest issue now is geedub is printing too many codices/supplements/etc. Is ridiculous how many iterations certain factions have gone through in so short a period of time. I do like that allied army lists seem to be dying off with some exceptions like Chaos whom are a verifiable smurgosboard of lore.

[Volt]

I'll agree that we need to stop looking back to "good edtions". I can guarentee that during 5th edition people were complainging that it was the worst edition ever and the game was dead, but once 6th dropped it was the best editioon ever and we went too far.

 

9th Edtion has just started. There are two codexes. The rules bloat was in 8th. Let us wait for a few more books before declaring 9th is the edtion that ruined the game this week.

There already is rules bloat thanks to if you play an army such as Dark Angels, you're going to need Codex Space Marines, Supplement Dark Angels, the BRB, and whatever campaign books are going to be heaped on in the future. The bloat needs to end and be put finally into the ground by requiring at most only two books for any force, with nothing further. Any rules added in campaigns should be published for free in errata that can be pinned onto a codex. Mark my words, 3 years from now 9th is going to be in a similar pickle to 8e in terms of bloat. Especially when 8e actually started off less bloated with the Indices, which frankly should have been the way of the future for pure rules and no fluff in a cheap format.

 

 

 

Yeah, Crusade is just not something I'm remotely interested in working with.

 

Take us back to 5th edition please...

Crusade is a great idea but an absolute mess to keep track of and already having copious amounts of bloat with various traits for Crusade being spread all over the place. Either it should have a concise digital format to keep track of (with a desktop version) or kept to a single book for efficiency's sake. Although 40k is also so lethal of a game that the Crusade format just feels bizarre.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Volt

[Scribe]

I'll agree that we need to stop looking back to "good edtions". I can guarentee that during 5th edition people were complainging that it was the worst edition ever and the game was dead, but once 6th dropped it was the best editioon ever and we went too far.

 

9th Edtion has just started. There are two codexes. The rules bloat was in 8th. Let us wait for a few more books before declaring 9th is the edtion that ruined the game this week.

For some, sure.

 

5th was the best refinement of the 3rd edition line. 6th was the beginning of the Allies and Detachment mess that would take hold and leave us with GW designing our units and armies for us.

 

The actual game of 5th has not been surpassed.

 

The fact we got updates for Admech, and Sisters, and GSC, is all great, but no, 5th was actually better, than 6/7/8. 9th, well I doubt I play before 10th, thx Covid.

[Dark Shepherd]

This might be too offtopic but Id say 10th has been significantly pushed back because of covid, partly supply/design delays etc but also if most people missed playing the first year of it then the salt if the edition effectively lasted 2 years? Now thatd be the nadir of recent approaches

[smileyjim]

Just gives us more time to reminisce about how the model bases where so much greener back in the good old days

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

I feel like a lot of the greavances here relate to things GW said over three years ago at the reveal of the previous edition.

 

Which if you recall, yes, they did reduce bloat, get rid of USR and provide rules for almost every model.

 

But a lot can happen in three years. 8th edition was a huge change and I think 9th has taken it to the logical conclusion. They have learnt and adapted the ruleset to make it arguably loads better.

 

No model no rules is one thing, releasing models with no options at all is another. They lost the court case yet they punish their customers rather than fix the issue.

 

How many times do you see customers begging GW for Chapter shoulder pad packs, upgrade frames etc, or to return to the days where you buy three kits and mix all the options?

 

Honestly?

 

The sculpts are better now and allow for more detailed poses there is single loadouts. Except, oh wait, there is still tonnes of choice!! Sure, some are a little jank but they match the models and thats fine. If you want to still go full customisation, for Space Marines at least, just play a first born captain instead of Primaris.

 

As for the second point.... GW literally make one or even two upgrade frames for all of the main chapters in the codex.

 

More detailed poses, huh. Aggressors would like a word with you. No, you're not allowed to use brass wire or guitar string. Now pose them differently please, i'll wait.

Repose that marine from the Intercessor kit for me. Use that leg that's attached to the torso. No, you can't use any filament or greenstuff to plug the holes, only what's available in the kit. The poses have become more static. I was literally discussing with a friend earlier;

 

"...They have no flavor. This has more to do with the sculpts and the way the kits go together compared to vanilla marines... Like, they look identical to any other unit. There’s no posing to aggressors because of the cables. There’s no other way to assemble the captain other than the other arm swap. Same with the lieutenant. The lack of personal flavor and customization saddens me. The armies you see in White Dwarf, or on Hobby-round up look like the box art with a different coat of paint on it. The running intercessor with the new (and ugly) bolt weapon pointed forward sprinting forward, I've seen it a thousand times. Before that, it was the intercessor aiming down the sights of his weapon stepping forward. Unless you get to chopping up his torso, positioning him to aim in another direction, he will like a carbon copy in every army he's in."

 

 

I hate the way the 8th edition handled books, needing this book for these extra rules, that book for these others rules for your army, this book for this points change, that book for another points change. I'd much rather they did a lot of this with free updates online, I'd rather be spending my money on models to be honest than cut and paste book additions.

 

 

I haven't played 40k in like two years at this point, but I was peering over the gate to glance into the community, as it were. I think by the end of 8th, if I wanted to play my Night Lords in 40k, I needed something like five books. The index. The Codex (you got your choice of TWO! Chaos players got the SAME codex printed for them, with four additional pages stapled in!) the PA book, the Vigilus books, and I feel like I'm forgetting another. Remove bloat, they said... The second Chaos Marine codex releasing felt like such a massive slap to the face. No cover change or anything, minor changes, a few additional pages. Full price Codex...

 

I really wish they’d change the ‘no model, no rules’ approach. It’s so limiting from a hobby perspective.

 

It’s also even more ridiculous when they take it to the extremes. Someone has already mentioned that to give a captain a power fist you also have to give him a plasma pistol because that’s exactly what the model has. Never mind that Sergeants aren’t similarly restricted.

 

Then you had what was probably the most ludicrous example of it in my mind: They finally introduce Death Company intercessors BUT only one of them could take a chainsword because (you guessed it) there was only one chainsword in a box of intercessors. That’s right, the Blood Angels could apparently only scrounge up enough chainswords (a weapon freely given to imperial guard sergeants) to give one to every ten of their honoured death company.

 

So it’s not just no models no rules, it’s also you must build it exactly as it is on the box. I’m really hoping we see a departure from this approach soon as I think it’s not a healthy approach to encourage variety.

 

I had no idea it was that bad. Damn, that's really depressing. I thought it was bad for the new CSM Terminators, getting shafted with the weapon options in the box, but yikes. 

 

For the No model, No rules front I can see both sides.

 

On one hand, the customisation issue seems to only be with new marine kits specifically Primaris. I can't think of a range other than this that has any real wargear restrictions, or loss in the wargear they can take.

Firstborn don't have this issue at all and I wonder why that is, is it to do with beginners? Or ease of balancing? Or is it the lawsuit?

They do. At least, for 40k. I raised the point in another thread a little while back, but they definitely do. Lore-wise, you can have an apothecary be outfitted in so many different ways.

Apothecary in power armor.

Apothecary in power armor, on a bike.

Apothecary in power armor, on a jetbike. (okay, this is more so 30k, admittedly. Grav tech is rare in the 41st Millennium after all, so you shouldn't see it everywhere. amirite?)

Apothecary in power armor, with a jump pack.

Apothecary in terminator plate.

 

So in theory, the data-sheet for Apothecaries should be huge, and extensive. However, because there aren't models for even a fraction of those, those rules don't exist. A shame, really. Apothecaries and nartheciums are awesome. Why wouldn't you want to model your Red Scorpions biker group with an apothecary on a bike? They LOVE their apothecaries! Buuut you can't, because there's no rules for it. I mean you can, but there's a divide between people who will stop because 1) It's not legal 2) Rule of cool

 

It's definitely because of the lawsuit. Tyranid Sporemines, man. Rules existed, no model existed. Can't copyright it if you don't make the model, so...

 

 

 

And frankly when 90% of “Converters” want is, whatever fotm weapon is. It comes off as options for wanting to power gaming then genuine desire for converting. And I stand by my opanion: Full Customization is false choice, there is always “Best” Choice.

Schlitzaf, you can stand by your opinion, but its bollocks. Just because you view "converters" as power gaming, you're flat out wrong - 90% of wanting to convert is absolutely not to have the flavor of the month (had to look that up) - "fotm" is partially what magnets are for, not converting. If you are taking the time to actually convert your models, rebuild parts you've had to hack off to get them to look the way you want, make cosmetic upgrades to your models, etc., you are very likely not redoing that every month/year to chase the meta - you might be sorta mental to actually do that.

 

I have numerous models that have sat on the shelf, partially built, due to a lack of the wanted options for them to make them flavorful to the appearance of my armies. I have also converted up my own Hounds of Morkai and they will definitely see the table because they are a cool fluff unit IMO, even though everyone thinks they are terrible/a waste of an Elite space, and since they have no-nothing combat knives, I've taken the liberty to give them no-nothing axes instead, because like combat knives, axes do nothing (they aren't chain axes, they aren't power axes, they don't exist in the game, so there's nothing to complain about).

 

Because GW has never given the flavorful options I have been hoping for on some models, I am going to instead model them with other flavorful options, but honestly, not every Chapter necessarily has that ability - I'd love to see a "shield wall" of Bladeguard Vets with power spears/tridents for the Spears of the Emperor, but unless someone has converted every single power sword to a power spear/trident, then it would potentially be somewhat confusing to see, especially in a competitive environment - the spear/trident would only be saved because they haven't actually given those rules. However, a Gravis Wolf Lord with a Frost Axe or even axe Relic is currently impossible. Similarly, a Primaris Salamander Captain with a thunder hammer and bolt carbine is also impossible. Neither would be a power gaming option, yet someone may want to have just those things. However, either could be confusing for an unfamiliar opponent to the point of not wanting to play against them because you can't actually make those things and GW does have rules for both power/frost/relic axes, thunder hammers, and bolt carbines, so you can't make the argument "Those don't exist so it doesn't matter."

 

Amen, amen, ameeen. I can't speak for all converters, but as someone who can't assemble a kit without fiddling with it to make it "mine", I do it for the joy of injecting a sense of "my personality" into it. 

[Evil Eye]

 

I'll agree that we need to stop looking back to "good edtions". I can guarentee that during 5th edition people were complainging that it was the worst edition ever and the game was dead, but once 6th dropped it was the best editioon ever and we went too far.

 

9th Edtion has just started. There are two codexes. The rules bloat was in 8th. Let us wait for a few more books before declaring 9th is the edtion that ruined the game this week.

For some, sure.

 

5th was the best refinement of the 3rd edition line. 6th was the beginning of the Allies and Detachment mess that would take hold and leave us with GW designing our units and armies for us.

 

The actual game of 5th has not been surpassed.

 

The fact we got updates for Admech, and Sisters, and GSC, is all great, but no, 5th was actually better, than 6/7/8. 9th, well I doubt I play before 10th, thx Covid.

 

Speaking as someone that got into 40K during 5th, I'm gonna call groxdung on that. There was JUST as much complaining about balance, if not more so- the only difference was the armies and lists that were overpowered as hell, notably Grey Knights, Blood Angels and Imperial Guard (ironically enough). Forge World had the opposite problem to now- they made a huge library of awesome models, but the rules for some of them were so broken (remember the OG Achilles?) that even today, people are hesitant to play against Forge World models. Speaking of models, it was the heyday of units never actually getting models of any kind (half the Tyranid roster went without models for years and half of those got squatted without models after the Chapterhouse debacle), or just getting a single sculpt (not talking about characters either- you were expected to run full squads of mono-design Grotesques!). And let us not forget this was the edition that brought us such wonderful models as the Stormraven, the Dreadknight, the Stormtalon...I could go on. The fluff I would argue was far worse than nowadays; not only were we stuck in a permanent tail end of M41, but you got awful, awful stuff like half the Grey Knights book, which was so utterly masturbatory that it made even the worst of Adjective Nounverber flavour text look like high art by comparison. Chaos as a faction was a sad sack of crap. Multi-faction armies? Forget it.

 

5th had some good things (the last of the metal models were pretty delightful sculpts, FW made a huge range of cool models even if most players were only interested in the game breakers) but the same could be said for any edition, and quite frankly calling it "the best edition" is a joke.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

I'll agree that we need to stop looking back to "good edtions". I can guarentee that during 5th edition people were complainging that it was the worst edition ever and the game was dead, but once 6th dropped it was the best editioon ever and we went too far.

9th Edtion has just started. There are two codexes. The rules bloat was in 8th. Let us wait for a few more books before declaring 9th is the edtion that ruined the game this week.

For some, sure.

5th was the best refinement of the 3rd edition line. 6th was the beginning of the Allies and Detachment mess that would take hold and leave us with GW designing our units and armies for us.

The actual game of 5th has not been surpassed.

The fact we got updates for Admech, and Sisters, and GSC, is all great, but no, 5th was actually better, than 6/7/8. 9th, well I doubt I play before 10th, thx Covid.

Fifth was great if you played guard, gk or pups. Oh and then Necrons right at the tail end, yeah. This was when Matt Ward was taking over development... good times.

[Scribe]

 

 

 

I'll agree that we need to stop looking back to "good edtions". I can guarentee that during 5th edition people were complainging that it was the worst edition ever and the game was dead, but once 6th dropped it was the best editioon ever and we went too far.

 

9th Edtion has just started. There are two codexes. The rules bloat was in 8th. Let us wait for a few more books before declaring 9th is the edtion that ruined the game this week.

For some, sure.

 

5th was the best refinement of the 3rd edition line. 6th was the beginning of the Allies and Detachment mess that would take hold and leave us with GW designing our units and armies for us.

 

The actual game of 5th has not been surpassed.

 

The fact we got updates for Admech, and Sisters, and GSC, is all great, but no, 5th was actually better, than 6/7/8. 9th, well I doubt I play before 10th, thx Covid.

Speaking as someone that got into 40K during 5th, I'm gonna call groxdung on that. There was JUST as much complaining about balance, if not more so- the only difference was the armies and lists that were overpowered as hell, notably Grey Knights, Blood Angels and Imperial Guard (ironically enough). Forge World had the opposite problem to now- they made a huge library of awesome models, but the rules for some of them were so broken (remember the OG Achilles?) that even today, people are hesitant to play against Forge World models. Speaking of models, it was the heyday of units never actually getting models of any kind (half the Tyranid roster went without models for years and half of those got squatted without models after the Chapterhouse debacle), or just getting a single sculpt (not talking about characters either- you were expected to run full squads of mono-design Grotesques!). And let us not forget this was the edition that brought us such wonderful models as the Stormraven, the Dreadknight, the Stormtalon...I could go on. The fluff I would argue was far worse than nowadays; not only were we stuck in a permanent tail end of M41, but you got awful, awful stuff like half the Grey Knights book, which was so utterly masturbatory that it made even the worst of Adjective Nounverber flavour text look like high art by comparison. Chaos as a faction was a sad sack of crap. Multi-faction armies? Forget it.

 

5th had some good things (the last of the metal models were pretty delightful sculpts, FW made a huge range of cool models even if most players were only interested in the game breakers) but the same could be said for any edition, and quite frankly calling it "the best edition" is a joke.

That's cool and all but about...all of that could be cut, because I'm talking about 5th itself. The main rules set.

 

I'm also not about to get into a deep debate on it, but my local scene was never close to as active after 5th.

 

Games took longer.

Army structure got all screwed up.

Rerolling and Overwatch idiocy started.

 

No edition has been close to as clean.

 

(PS: I loved my Dark Elder. Even in a meta with GK, Guard, Angels and Nids)

[Volt]

Also I'd hardly condemn 5e's lore from the perspective of 8e. The Grey Knight stuff was dumb as hell but they were a minority of the galaxy and you'd never even knew they existed in the lore unless you specifically read their novel series or the codex. Meanwhile since 7e Guilliman is omnipresent and swallows up agency from all those around him as part of the Primarch blight.

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

Also I'd hardly condemn 5e's lore from the perspective of 8e. The Grey Knight stuff was dumb as hell but they were a minority of the galaxy and you'd never even knew they existed in the lore unless you specifically read their novel series or the codex. Meanwhile since 7e Guilliman is omnipresent and swallows up agency from all those around him as part of the Primarch blight.

Can lump Cawl into that mix too. 

[Varizel]

 

 

 

I'll agree that we need to stop looking back to "good edtions". I can guarentee that during 5th edition people were complainging that it was the worst edition ever and the game was dead, but once 6th dropped it was the best editioon ever and we went too far.

 

9th Edtion has just started. There are two codexes. The rules bloat was in 8th. Let us wait for a few more books before declaring 9th is the edtion that ruined the game this week.

For some, sure.

 

5th was the best refinement of the 3rd edition line. 6th was the beginning of the Allies and Detachment mess that would take hold and leave us with GW designing our units and armies for us.

 

The actual game of 5th has not been surpassed.

 

The fact we got updates for Admech, and Sisters, and GSC, is all great, but no, 5th was actually better, than 6/7/8. 9th, well I doubt I play before 10th, thx Covid.

Speaking as someone that got into 40K during 5th, I'm gonna call groxdung on that. There was JUST as much complaining about balance, if not more so- the only difference was the armies and lists that were overpowered as hell, notably Grey Knights, Blood Angels and Imperial Guard (ironically enough). Forge World had the opposite problem to now- they made a huge library of awesome models, but the rules for some of them were so broken (remember the OG Achilles?) that even today, people are hesitant to play against Forge World models. Speaking of models, it was the heyday of units never actually getting models of any kind (half the Tyranid roster went without models for years and half of those got squatted without models after the Chapterhouse debacle), or just getting a single sculpt (not talking about characters either- you were expected to run full squads of mono-design Grotesques!). And let us not forget this was the edition that brought us such wonderful models as the Stormraven, the Dreadknight, the Stormtalon...I could go on. The fluff I would argue was far worse than nowadays; not only were we stuck in a permanent tail end of M41, but you got awful, awful stuff like half the Grey Knights book, which was so utterly masturbatory that it made even the worst of Adjective Nounverber flavour text look like high art by comparison. Chaos as a faction was a sad sack of crap. Multi-faction armies? Forget it.

 

5th had some good things (the last of the metal models were pretty delightful sculpts, FW made a huge range of cool models even if most players were only interested in the game breakers) but the same could be said for any edition, and quite frankly calling it "the best edition" is a joke.

That's cool and all but about...all of that could be cut, because I'm talking about 5th itself. The main rules set.

 

I'm also not about to get into a deep debate on it, but my local scene was never close to as active after 5th.

 

Games took longer.

Army structure got all screwed up.

Rerolling and Overwatch idiocy started.

 

No edition has been close to as clean.

 

(PS: I loved my Dark Elder. Even in a meta with GK, Guard, Angels and Nids)

hmm.... i disagree with the ruleset statement. I don't think 5th was in any way better than 4th besides skimmer moving fast. 5th did however fixed some problems 4th had, but replaced it with their own problems.

Let's just list down what i think is inferior in 5th compared to 4th.

1. Victory points replaced by killpoints

2. No more Quarters (replaced by break the line)

3. Less emphasis on positioning (models can only be removed in 4th by the distance of their guns... if you're rapid firing bolters? that's 12 inch only from model firing can be taken as casualties... but in 5th it was 24 inch (max range of bolter) for models eligible to be removed. You have to shoot closest units in 4th unless you passed Ld test, melee combat only affecting 2 inch of the assaulting units models, Assaulting tanks resolved with Armor value facing the model in 4th. If you want to hit the rear of the predator,. you'd better charge it from the rear, not auto hit rear like in 5th)

4. Abstract replaced by TLOS ... this was big back then when 5th first came out.... it made some terrains useless (notably the 3 tress "forest" terrain that GW had). No more strategy of a unit blocking LOS to the unit behind it (units and terrains in 4th had height classification).

5. 3 vehicle damage table replaced by 1. Glancing in 4th can kill a tank if you roll a 6 (unless you're Eldar). I don't ever remember killing tanks with my venom cannon in 5th (venom cannon is an AP4 always glance agaisnt tanks weapon back then)..

6. No more guess weapon... but this is debatable

 

That was just from the top of my mind. 1 & 2 directly relates to missions design. 4 just makes a lot of arguments happened between players and invalidate some terrains. 5 just makes cheap transport unnecessarily durable which is why 5th was called the parking lot edition.

Not to mention codex designs... yeah 5th wasn't that great in my eyes, unless of course, you play GK, IG, BA, SW, Dark Eldar, and Necron. (this one debatable).

 

What i think 5th was best was the amount of players. I think i played more people in 5th than it was in 4th. The rest of 5th? Not so good.

 

My opinion of course.

 

EDIT: do note however, for reason no 5, i think 5th still allowed for tanks to be destroyed on 6s too. But it relies on volume of shots, thats why riflemen dread was rife Venkm Cannon had always been a crappy tank buster though, so i guess it wasn't fair to state that weapon as fhe reason 5th vehicle was durable.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Varizel

[chapter master 454]

Still going to ring this in: Bring back E-Pubs. Kind of irritating not being able to get a digital copy of things. Somewhat ironic timing I would think: Many businesses moved to digital means, meanwhile GW went the opposite way...hmm, me thinks that was poorly thought out.

 

Again, their approaches seem to be erratic, mixed and at best haphazardly aligned that gives an impression of a confused giant rather than malicious intent. Many decisions across different systems and no matter the result nothing sticks or is brought back but not the same way even if it worked before hand or they change their direction or was it their response feedback loop or was it their production line or was it...or was...or...or...

 

For all the removal of scatter, GW sure do seem to keep landing arrows in all directions and suffer from that age old parallax error!

 

I personally sense good in GW but they struggle to have it shine through their attempt to be a hecatoncheires but yet all we want is for them to settle and stop changing everything so rapidly when it was alright. Not saying 8th needed changed, it just need rules put back in correctly! But the change to their online E-pubs, the general feel of certain release schedules and over spotlighting on one faction (lets not honey coat it, we are all just shades of power armour) have just left sour tastes.

 

Or am I wrong? Or is this a viewpoint that many feel works. I ramble...sometimes I need to...how else can I make sense?

[ThePenitentOne]

Still going to ring this in: Bring back E-Pubs. Kind of irritating not being able to get a digital copy of things. Somewhat ironic timing I would think: Many businesses moved to digital means, meanwhile GW went the opposite way...hmm, me thinks that was poorly thought out.

 

Again, their approaches seem to be erratic, mixed and at best haphazardly aligned that gives an impression of a confused giant rather than malicious intent. Many decisions across different systems and no matter the result nothing sticks or is brought back but not the same way even if it worked before hand or they change their direction or was it their response feedback loop or was it their production line or was it...or was...or...or...

 

For all the removal of scatter, GW sure do seem to keep landing arrows in all directions and suffer from that age old parallax error!

 

I personally sense good in GW but they struggle to have it shine through their attempt to be a hecatoncheires but yet all we want is for them to settle and stop changing everything so rapidly when it was alright. Not saying 8th needed changed, it just need rules put back in correctly! But the change to their online E-pubs, the general feel of certain release schedules and over spotlighting on one faction (lets not honey coat it, we are all just shades of power armour) have just left sour tastes.

 

Or am I wrong? Or is this a viewpoint that many feel works. I ramble...sometimes I need to...how else can I make sense?

 

I agree they need digital publications back, but I'd prefer plain old PDF's to E-pubs. I purchased a bunch during lockdown, all at once. I wish I had purchased them one at a time. They may be okay on an e-reader- if you're willing to pay money for a machine which does only one job, which in 2020, I am not. On a computer, an E-pub is garbage, and every penny I spent was wasted.

 

But yes, they do need a digital format that works.

 

If only they could make the app as good as it was supposed to be, it could fill this niche.

 

As for other approaches, I see 9th as doing everything 8th did but better. Three ways to play and game size variations in particular.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m liking the app for rules.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Still going to ring this in: Bring back E-Pubs. Kind of irritating not being able to get a digital copy of things. Somewhat ironic timing I would think: Many businesses moved to digital means, meanwhile GW went the opposite way...hmm, me thinks that was poorly thought out.

 

I wish they would but because of how greedy GW is they won't go back. Harder to pirate stuff in the app. I just vote with my wallet. After I finish my current DG army, I'm not collecting a second. The whole app thing was the last straw for me.

 

The epub files on the site would update with the FAQ and CA point costs after awhile and you could redownload them. I hope the app version self updates.