GW and their recent approaches

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think necrodermis intent is to make ctan more survivable... did they go too far one way, prolly.

[Joe]

Restrictive posing is tied to detail - there's a point at which you have to decide between great detail and restrictive posing, or reduced detail and unrestrictive posing.

 

Historicals have been a pretty clear cut indication of this for decades. There's a rough middle-ground, but you can't have it all.

[Charlo]

 

As well, there were only a few things that went with Book 9: Crusade, including only 1 kit for the Night Lords, announced in March this year. It is now November, two months after book 9 released, and it still isn't out! This kit was shown off way back when Ghazghkull and Ragnar were announced. Their box has been released, had their obligatory 6 month window and even had their separate release during this time.

 

Not sure if you heard pal, but there is an ongoing world wide pandemic xo

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

As well, there were only a few things that went with Book 9: Crusade, including only 1 kit for the Night Lords, announced in March this year. It is now November, two months after book 9 released, and it still isn't out! This kit was shown off way back when Ghazghkull and Ragnar were announced. Their box has been released, had their obligatory 6 month window and even had their separate release during this time.

Not sure if you heard pal, but there is an ongoing world wide pandemic xo

This would be applicable if they weren't announcing and promptly releasing new necromunda, etc. stuff constantly.

 

The point stands, which is that they can do their other things promptly, but will not for those.

 

An example - They announced the new Necromunda doctor on the 17th of October at the Gridiron and Glory preview, and it will be for preorder on the 6th of November, less than three weeks whilst things revealed 8 months ago linger. There's no further roadmap, communication, etc. provided, so from the outside, we can only express dissatisfaction.

Edited November 3, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

We don’t know the full story. I’m just glad for whatever they can get to release.

[Noserenda]

The Wargear limitations i think will spread among other factions as they get new kits and such but its not a problem for all the races to the extent it is with Marines (And guard but all their core kits are ancient). A Tactical sergeant could take any of a dozen pistols and melee weapons in various combinations, then half a dozen special weapons and same again for heavy weapons all of which eat sprue space, especially the heavies! Wheras a fixed loadout with a mildly variable weapon can be done super efficiently meaning more space for things like heads and variant parts.

Now weirdly they are getting flexible with this on sergeants of all things but still super tight with characters who arguably should have the most customisation and chapter relics! 

Much as i disagree with a lot of FWs direction they really are suffering from social distancing in their production lines, which limits new releases, which means taking turns with all their systems unfortunately for everyone. AoD would definitely still benefit from switching to a specialist game with a plastic frame per quarter like the others but as long as this elitist attitude pervades at some noticeable levels FW will play to that as its more profitable (arguably only short term ofc). But hey thats 2 whole other topics covered quite well a few times in the appropriate forum :D 

[ThePenitentOne]

I tend to come off as a bit of a white knight, and I'm typically long winded.

 

So first I'd like to say that it is early in the edition. I'm not sure we know what's happening to all the FW units that didn't make it into the compendium. Some will go to legends, for sure. But some may make the shift from FW to GW proper. And it's also possible that there are other GW publications for the FW range on the way. Full disclosure: as soon as I saw that there was now Inquisition vehicle and that the Avenger doesn't appear to have given back the Sororitas Keyword, I stopped following the issue. So if anyone has more info, please provide links. I think an announcement has been made about some of the units that didn't make the cut which ARE for sure becoming Legends, but I don't think they've said ALL of the units are going to Legends.

 

No to OP's three complaints:

 

1: Restrictive Load Outs/ Bespoke datasheets

 

There's a HUGE thread about this on Dakka right now about this, and it's gotten so toxic that while I still read it, I have to force myself not to feed the trolls. But what it basically comes down to, from my point of view is that there are two ways to handle options: one is to have many, simple datasheets with limited options, or to have few complex sheets loaded with so many options that you're basically building the unit from the ground up, rather than choosing from a list of premade load outs. The best example to illustrate the point was the Carnifex variants; we used to have ONE entry for the Carnifex... But it was like a box of Lego; you could build a Screamer Killer, or a Thornback, or a whatever. Some people really liked that- I was one of them. But that's because I am UBER GAMER and I have the expertise to customize for exactly what I want without any guidance from GW. The new system, where we have 3 or 4 different premade Carnifexes, and players just have to pick the one that is the closest match to what they want or need... Well, it is faster and easier for new players than running math hammer on all the dozens of different combinations provided by the previous, single sheet.

 

Now I'm not enough of a marine player to know how similar the various Captain/ Lieutenant builds are to the Carnifex situation. But taking those five datacards and making them a single, more complicated data card doesn't actually increase or decrease the available options at all; it's just a difference in approach.

 

As for restrictions on Primaris builds, that's kinda the Primaris schtick- their units are all identically equipped. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have units with few options being led by those with many. Diverse load outs is one of the things that separates classic marines from Primaris. If load out options for Primaris become as varied as those for Old Marines, at that point there really won't be a difference between the two- especially after making Old Marines 2w.

 

2: USR's:

 

Again, a matter of approach. Some people (primarily competitive Tourney types) feel like they need to know ALL of the rules for EVERY army in order to anticipate their opponent's moves. I get that. But I don't think it has ever been GW's intention that you NEED to know any rules other than the rules for the army YOU are using. If I play Blood Angels, I am only obligated to know how Blood Angels work. My opponent is responsible for knowing their rules, not me. If something doesn't pass my sniff test, I can ask my opponent to show me the rule. But please, let's not make any stupid assumptions (as Dakkanaughts often do) that GW expects anyone to memorize 24 different Codices. It's always been a game that assumed players are good enough sports to call their own fouls.

 

So once you get that out of the way, USR's are pointless. Memorize the rules YOUR army uses. That's it. That's all. No need to memorize 40 USR's when your army only uses ten of the 40. Every rule YOU need is in your Codex, and most of them are on the actual datacard for the unit. And again, this is easier for new players.

 

I get that you Tourney types want to know EVERYONE's rules, and I can see why. But that's just not the way the designers want the game to be, because they want it to be as easy as possible for new players. They literally want EVERYTHING you need to be in your dex. Could they eliminate lots of extra pages by going USR? Sure. But you'd need to do a lot more memorization and cross referencing than if you simply worry about your own rules and let your opponent worry about theirs.

 

3: Legends

 

Okay, again, I get it: you're saying that Legends gives them an easy out- a way to put a model in limbo where it's squatted/ not squatted. And again, from that perspective, I feel you. BUT from my perspective, being able to use Uriah Jacobus and Confessor Kyrinov is better than not being able to use them, which is where we are if there is no Legends. Again, Tourney players and people who primarily play pick up games with strangers in stores are likely to have a different, yet equally valid point of view, because for them, the LIMBO of Legends IS basically squatting the army. But I assure you, for those of us who play garage hammer with friends, Legends units are very much in play. And again, if you're upset about Legends YOU HAVE THE OPTION OF PLAYING GARAGE HAMMER WITH FRIENDS INSTEAD OF RESTRICTING YOURSELF TO THE MUCH NARROWER FOCUS OF CHASING TOURNAMENT META. Sorry for the screaming in caps, but from my point of view, I wade through so many complaints from the tourney set that just aren't issues for the rest of us, and I think to myself about how much power GW has given these people to solve their own problems by exploring the other dimensions of the hobby, and I really genuinely wonder why these people don't just choose  to drop the meta-chasing crap and do the thing which would make them happy.

 

Sorry if this came across antagonistic and heavy handed; all the folks who have pointed out that this is a risky topic are correct, and I hope I haven't pushed us closer to a thread lock. For what it's worth, I don't actually get to play as often as many of the other posters here, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Edited November 3, 2020 by ThePenitentOne

[Special Officer Doofy]

Current GW for me.

 

Pro's: 9th is going in a great direction so far. 8th was my favorite edition, and 9th even more so building off that. I like that factions are all getting mono bonuses now too.

 

Con's: The app is garbage. I just want epubs back, but that ship sailed away. That was pretty much the nail in the coffin for me, now I'm only going to play one faction and not collect a second army because of it (sold off all my stuff when I quit and came back for 8th). Once my one faction is done, GW won't make that much money off me, considering I play DG and almost have everything possible.

 

At the end of the day, GW can't please everyone. What I find most interesting and laughable at the same time, is the amount of white knights for GW, some on this forum. That GW can do no wrong. Nobody is perfect, and GW is a for profit business. Profits drive most decisions there, for better or for worse, and it shows. But some people defend every last decision they make, like an adorable 5 year old boy who argues their dad can beat up everyone else's dad.

 

Edit: grammar.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Putrid Choir

[Scribe]

I'm still surprised at the degree I'm which the community accepted this datasheet 'what we tell you is all you get' paint by numbers approach.

 

It's completely turned me off of the game side. Auras, Bubbles, no customization, build your Army this way or it's wrong.

 

It's just so...contrived? I don't know.

 

It's not how it was in the glory days of the game.

 

It's just AoS design bled into 40K and sucked out the soul.

 

The Chapterhouse stuff didn't help either. So thanks for that...

[StrangerOrders]

My issues are a bit weird but I think I agree with some.

 

1. I genuinely hate the design ethos of Primaris vehicles. Especially transports. I am not playing Dark Eldar, so why am I having to pay a massive premium for a bundle of guns when all I want is a decent transport? Not all of us fetishize 5 man squads and I cannot fathom GWs current approach.

 

2. I think folks should be kind and polite. But the almost black shirt-like hatred if criticism I see alot of is tiresome in the extreme and sometimes I tire of it. Some folks can like a thing, others do not, be respectful and admit your preferences are not universal. I have jokingly said it in the past but I honestly see more complaints about complaints than I do complaints to begin with.

 

3. The lack of customization. I do not want to have to paint and assemble duplicate after duplicate if needlessly complex poses. I genuinely prefer a more static pose I can go ham on with bits than the frankly irritating lack of diversity that plagues my growing Primaris collection. I genuinely find them more limiting and static than the older models standing still. If GW is on a crusade against customization due to a lawsuit, good for them. But why can they not just release a big captain/LT box like before? Instead of acting as if a single option is eight and then acting as if having a horrifically bloated abomination of a roster is something to be proud of. Its just too much.

 

4. Tied to the above. I genuinely hate how many Primaris units there are and how specialized they are. It feels like a Primaris can't scratch his head without GW making a new 'Scratchcursors' unit. Folks compare it to 30k and I genuinely find that almost insulting. Not least because this makes characterization difficult and the sheer influx of units have created a big problem in the fluff. You can see it a bit in the codex but its violently prevalent in the novels. There is no fluff for most of their units or culture built around them unlike the old range. Because instead of adding variants for odder chapters or tackling Xenos, they pop out Primaris faster than the setting can keep up. Its a massive problem for someone like me that plays because of the setting rather than the opposite. I am praying this improves and I do not hate Primaris in and of themselves but the methodology around them is frankly perverse.

 

5. I feel like the AoD fanbase is genuinely treated worse than any other specialist game and Warcom seems genuinely passive-aggressive towards us. Where they are at least enthusiastic and frequent with literally anything else, they seem actively disdainful of the 30k base.

 

These are just my own opinions, I respect those that have a different take.

[Schlitzaf]

So skimmed the thread but one thing: this gonna sound weird but in my opanion, monopose/one weapon option kits are a converters paradise. For example:

 

I want to have my Super Awesome Cpt w. SShield and LClaw. The latter weapon is frankly abymsally bad. And if I did make a firstborn character and played vs most people I would be “forced” to run LClaw instead of THammer, RelicBlade, Chainsword or PowSword for relic access.

 

If I play a Primaris Marshall, only Melee Options w/o PlasPistol was a PowSword. So even if modeled w/ LClaw he has a PowSword fof ruled purposes. PreIndomitus if I want go give a Primaris Marshall a Shield cause “Cool” I could because it means nothing. Sense its not an armament and he only has three loadouts.

 

So in terms of gear access, one option units are actually imho a converters paradiss cause no matter how your converted model is armed its only one legal option regardless. Once you start adding heavily divergent loadouts like we are starting to see with Primaris Captains which have some options if not many. This concept begins to fall apart sense its no longer “okay he actually has that regardless of appearance” and more like “what does he actually have?”

 

And frankly when 90% of “Converters” want is, whatever fotm weapon is. It comes off as options for wanting to power gaming then genuine desire for converting. And I stand by my opanion: Full Customization is false choice, there is always “Best” Choice.

 

Which is what you ultimately end up always seeing on table. While limited or no choice I feel for converting is liberating because but virtue of only one option every conversion is legal and easy for the opponent to understand what that unit actually has while not stifling choice based on based table performance

[Scribe]

And frankly when 90% of “Converters” want is, whatever fotm weapon is. It comes off as options for wanting to power gaming then genuine desire for converting. And I stand by my opanion: Full Customization is false choice, there is always “Best” Choice.

 

Which is what you ultimately end up always seeing on table. While limited or no choice I feel for converting is liberating because but virtue of only one option every conversion is legal and easy for the opponent to understand what that unit actually has while not stifling choice based on based table performance

But my Captain, didn't come out looking like everyone else's Captain, and the GW Approved 'art' that oddly enough looks exactly the same as all of our Captains.

 

Minmax rules? Agreed, always gonna happen.

 

Paint by numbers design and art? Was never as bad as it is now.

 

Looking over the Necron dex was so demotivating.

[Cpt_Reaper]

One grievance I desperately need to air is...does GW know what a roadmap even is?

 

"Here are the next two codexes and after that it's a secret."

 

Bad GW! I'll get the hose!

 

A roadmap is where you announce every release for the next release period, say a quarter or more. And you don't go "two books will be out in X month but it's a secret". YOU TELL US WHAT THEY ARE!

 

Now, I have heard complaints that roadmaps lead to disappointment when your army turns out to be last. But my local manager put it amazingly.

 

Your Army is announced to be last. You suffer 1x disappointment, but then between the announcement you get hyped as you prepare for your release. You save and plan and hype yourself up.

 

Without a roadmap, same army is last in the pile. You never know what is around the corner. A new release is teased, you get hyped up. It's not Your Army so you are dissapointed. The next release comes out and you are disappointed again. After the third release you are disappointed again and so on and so forth until you finally get Your Army but...you're not hyped. You have been let down by every release not being Your Army.

[Noserenda]

Good point mentioning them but unfortunately the character boxes were a big flop as far as i heard, though they mostly rolled out on the Warhammer side which probably didnt help given how bad Warhammer sales were in general at the time tbh :/ 

Especially as with todays design and sprue filling they would be so much more flexible and dynamic and have more options! 

I suspect there is some benefit for loads of different characters too as that is definitely a design direction these days with loads of new support type characters in newer armies like Death guard and Gene cults, which is really nice personally :) 

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

I wish that the way things were handled with the Indexes in 8th were something they carried over into this edition.  But my main gripe is with their rules model, and I'm happy to bring this up at every opportunity. 

 

Here's a total lists of 40k factions I have painted, and ready to play at least combat patrol games with:

 

Blood Angels

Raptors

Raven Guard

Red Hunters

Star Phantoms

Sisters of Battle

Inquisition

Astra Militarum

Tau

Tyranids

Genestealer Cults

Chaos/Slaves to the Abyss

Gellerpox

Daemons

Necrons

 

Now, I realize that may sound like a lot, but I suspect there's probably more people with collections like this than just me. 

 

What am I supposed to do when a new edition drops every 2 years?  Buy the new book for all of these forces or just skip some for an edition? 

 

I've spent the better part of a decade and countless hours creating this table-ready collection, but if I didn't use something like battlescribe to make lists for these forces, I would be out of luck actually playing games with some of these factions because I'd really rather give GW money for more models, not for a book that miiiiight be good for 2 years.  In the case of Space Marines there were *2* codexes in a single edition, plus supplements, and they are all basically obsolete already. 

 

Not to mention that too much of these codexes from edition to edition are recycled material/fluff, sometimes with the same copy-pasted typos.  So I really don't feel like I'm getting value for my money. 

 

If GW wants to make us pay for the rules, there is definitely a better way than this, and the new app is a complete whiff on the issue I'm describing here. 

 

Although I really think that it would be more fruitful to just releasae all the basic unit rules for free, or ALL for a single purchase, and then sell us rules for campaigns and stuff like that.  There are plenty of ways to sell rules without putting up a full paywall to the core rules/stats. 

 

I don't agree with the idea that the only valuable way to critique them is to "vote with my wallet" because they do articulate back to the community critiques I read here and elsewhere so that shows that they do listen to what people say on social media and possibly what we write to GW directly. 

 

That being said, I am definitely voting with my wallet as well; I'm tired of buying GW books that are out of date sometimes in around a year's time, especially when the content isn't that different from iteration to iteration. 

 

It's essentially like I'm being punished for having so many factions, when it sort of seems like they should incentivize me to do so.  But as is it's like they are saying "don't spend money on different factions unless you can pay for the rules too!" which feels like  a perverse incentive they would want to remove.

 

Anyways, there are also systems like Infinity that has managed a great unit/army builder for free, but they also somehow still manage to sell the core rules and unit rules as books, but at least if you have multiple factions there it doesn't add up to hundreds of dollars to accumulate all the rules.

 

One last thought; what stings most is not knowing how long a book I buy is good for.  Magic:TG has a clear release schedule for blocks and it seems like GW could do the same for their  rules, even if they try to keep model releases under wraps.  After all, plenty of rules get released that aren't directly tied to new models so I don't see why all the secrecy there.  It just makes for a fairly hostile company/consumer dynamic for me.   Someone above pointed out how silly their "roadmap" was, that was like, here's a few months releases, and the rest is redacted." 

 

Thanks! 

[chapter master 454]

I would point that my disgruntlement with GW and their approach to characters is fairly wasteful. I personally don't know why we don't have "character" boxes where the box builds 2-3 characters with various options. Considering how most characters are put onto one sprue (and a small one at that) I would of thought that a good way of cutting the gunk from store shelves. Maybe some factions can't have this for certain reasons (Tyranids maybe lose out because you all can't stick to a diet!) but ultimately this is where I think they have lost out on a major method of not having shelves cluttered.

 

Most factions would easily have one of these each but with marines, likely have several. For example would be a possible box set called "Captain masters" where they would of had 4 captains like the 4 "masters of the chapter" thing but instead of being 4 sprues they get put into one fancy box and boom, sell that as a special edition thing.

 

Also I want to just take my quick pot shot here: Dark Millennium Captain when? Seriously...he has a datasheet but no kit to obtain him...I thought "no kit, no rules" or was he re-packed into some other kit silently.

[MegaVolt87]

The whole no model argument, no rules thing never really held much water considering-

 

Jump pack CSM sorcerer- no model, has rules

Jump pack librarian- no model has rules

regular SM bike captain- no model has rules, but the chaos lord on bike with no model went to legends....

CSM chosen- no model, has rules

Vet intercessors- no models has rules-  but they cut DE kabalite trueborn which are made with a troops box like chosen and vet intercessors. 

 

I'm sure there are countless other examples in other factions, I am just most familiar with CSM and SM to pick these ones out. If GW were to evenly apply their no model no rules policy all of the above should be put into legends ASAP because they lack models yes? Something like the basic primaris captain should be boxed up like the old SM captain, the way things are done/ designed now, many weapons options could be simple hand swaps. Unpopular opinion- the line between ETB kits and regular multipart kits is fast disappearing with these mono loadouts kits. Its unnecessary product bloat, especially for LGS's to stock on limited shelf space. What's happening now is LGS can't stock everything, many customers can't impulse buy, if its only via store order, 50/50 on weather they say don't worry about it and order it online or wait to get it from a LGS order.

 

Converting wise, I am still going to get eyebrow raises and an uncomfortable silence when I do something like a gravis captain with power axe and boltstorm gauntlet at a GW store, how is that conversation meant to go between my opponent with others including the manager within earshot, especially if its someone new to the game or a WYSIWYG stickler? Seems only SW can have axes because they are the viking guys, DA the plasma pistol and power sword because they are the duelist types etc. The lore itself suffers enough with such tropes and typecasting, having it bleed into the hobby and rules of the actual game is just not acceptable, one straw too many. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Something I noticed about the app... Faith and Fury vs Templars’ new index/supplement... it was annoying looking up WLT, stratagems and relics in F&F since they were all mixed together in seemingly no particular but now that the index is out is really easy. Still waiting for the army builder though.

 

In terms of modeling it was easy to kitbash a Primaris Captain with a power fist and plasma pistol.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

 

Sooner or later the cost of the hobby is going to outweigh the fun it can provide, or GW will make some final bad decision that pushes all of the loyal old guard away for good.

The old guard do not make up the bulk of GW's customers because we already have armies and just buy the odd new unit when it comes out. The majority of GW's income comes from new players who are building up a complete army from scratch. Second are existing players who start a new faction. These players spend far more money in a short space of time than the old guard do.

 

Sadly, old Greybeards like me are not GW's core market. The biggest contribution I have probably made to GW's balance sheet in the last 5 years has been getting my kids into 40K. They have spent quite a bit more than me.

 

You've actually illustrated my point. The purpose of Old Guard isn't to buy new models, it's to provide a base for new players to interact with. It is the Old Guard that brings new players into the game, and gives them opponents to face. If there hadn't been a bunch of regular old players meeting at my LGS every Wednesday I never would have bought into the hobby and made the friends I have. 

 

That is why GW needs to remember the OGs and the roll they play in their business. The moment they quit the hobby, the backbone of this industry will fall out and the newbies will have to carry it. If they can't, it goes under. 

 

That, and the OG do tend to buy the books, update their ranges, and even create new armies alongside new players. The guy that brought me into the hobby is building a Word Barer army for Crusade, another vet is starting Harlequens. Every player is their own individual, but existing in the hobby does tend to mean some money being shelled out.

[Dark Shepherd]

I would say if you follow 40k/GW closely these days you get a good idea of when things will be released outdated eg psychic awakening leading to 9th

 

BUT you drop money on a P.A book cos yay new shiney shiney and then its out of date within a matter of months. Vigilus lasted a year?

 

That said new/more casual players getting burnt by codexes suddenly (soon) being out of date is not nice. To echo the roadmap thang, a clearer roadmap would be better here and they could withdraw codexes, discounting them would be too ridiculous to wish for

 

(Want to stress am not casting aspersions about how serious/casual any fraters are)

[MegaVolt87]

The vet GW hobbyist VS the new/ casual one is an interesting one.  @Dark Shepherd makes a good point about vets more willing to sink money into short shelf life products to a point, while a new person would definitely be shocked with say their revised SM codex barely lasting a year. I think the move of GW to become more mainstream + mass marketable will fix many of the current issues, especially price and ease of entry. Can just imagine joe public flooding social media with "love the setting, why the models so expensive?" etc. Big box stores stepping up for distribution (walmart, Kmart etc) coming in buying bulk, then setting their own RRP less than GW main will fix it. Similar happened with BL books via places like Amazon, larger book chains on pricing. MTG has moved to big box stores, LGS are still making a good trade in MTG despite that change. Also the fact that uneven pricing model has driven a big wedge in the community, feels like us out here in the colonies are subsidising UK and EU players GW hobby, corporate/ consumer economic inequality etc. If i were GW I would be scrambling to fix that issue, especially as the community at large is definitely trending to be much more diverse and welcoming to progressive types. Its a needless hot button issue that can be eliminated before it becomes a problematic hashtag issue and PR nightmare for the company. 

[Dark Shepherd]

Us EU players are subsidising the UK too :)

 

GW, and this is a major major grievance of mine, has converted Sterling to Euro at about 1 to 1.35 for the last 5 years or so DESPITE the actual rate being around 1 to 1.15 on average

 

Newer releases are about 1 to 1.25

[Kain Mor]

Us EU players are subsidising the UK too :)

 

GW, and this is a major major grievance of mine, has converted Sterling to Euro at about 1 to 1.35 for the last 5 years or so DESPITE the actual rate being around 1 to 1.15 on average

 

Newer releases are about 1 to 1.25

GW’s trademark conversion for USD is pretty crazy as well. Intercessors are nearly double from £35 to $60 when the conversion rate is $1.3 to £1 and that’s the most favorable it’s been for them in quite awhile...

[WrathOfTheLion]

Currency conversion is a serious gripe as well. US have it horrible, with VAT included into the conversion rate. Australia and New Zealand have it worse, I think their predatory conversion rates are significantly immoral.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Currency conversion is a serious gripe as well. US have it horrible, with VAT included into the conversion rate. Australia and New Zealand have it worse, I think their predatory conversion rates are significantly immoral.

I thought the same, but that's how it is with alot of stuff. Look at an American to Britain sale, Xbox games are currently $59.99 new in the U.S., and are £59.99 over seas (I looked at NHL 21 for an example). I'm grateful, I spend a whole hell of alot more on that hobby than this hobby so I'll take the wonky conversions haha.