The Lost And the Damned: A Fandex (Damndex?) Project

[Evil Eye]

So I think we can mostly agree that the Legends rules for Renegades and Heretics are not exactly ideal. It's better than nothing but it could be a heck of a lot better. That being said? As the saying goes, if you want something done properly you might as well do it yourself, and given we at the very least have a base to work off of, I'm intending to create a fanmade replacement for these somewhat mediocre rules.

 

Now, I should start this off by stating my mission intentions, what this project sets out to do and what it doesn't. After all, I'm no accomplished rulesmith or playtester, so I want to make the "mission statement" as transparent and honest as possible.

 

What this project DOES intend to achieve:

>Make LATD fun to collect and play again, at the very least at a casual level.

>Bring back the variety and customization that is sorely missing from the current rules.

>Add a whole host of new stuff to make LATD distinct from the other factions, both in terms of fluff and crunch.

>Pay homage to the glory days of WD Chapter Approved, FW supplements and other "expansion packs".

>Make a decent, functional set of rules that at least allow R&H players to stand toe to toe with other armies at a friendly level, and that function reliably.

What this project DOES NOT intend to achieve:

>Create a perfectly balanced, laser-precision-engineered ruleset that will "fix" the game, win tournaments or whatever (being a fandex it wouldn't be tourney legal anyway!). This is intended to give players the opportunity to create a cool, unique army, not to create a professional-level book with no exploitable elements, vulnerabilities or whatever at all. Not even GW can manage that with all their resources and money, so what chance do I have?

>Create a busted, overpowered or downright cheesy army that can wipe the floor with any faction. As above, this is a passion project intended to bring the Lost and the Damned in all their villainous glory. Whilst this will naturally result in some internal balance issues if playing at higher level, I don't want to create any actually broken units or potential for "BSOD" scenarios from RAW conflicts/snarls.

>Create [insert army here] with spikes on. Whilst mostly derived from the existing R&H rules, this fandex will cover more than just traitor Astra Militarum regiments- Chaotic cult insurrections, Dark Mechanicus, the rare-but-present fallen Adepta Sororitas, and mixtures of all of these. As the title implies this is a true "Lost and the Damned" army- that is, any Chaos group not currently represented by a standalone Codex, or that would be too small for a full Codex unto themselves.

 

Anyway, now that that's out of the way...

 

BASIC RESOURCES:

Obviously the core of the rules I'm intending to "translate" will be the Legends army list, for the sake of simplicity. Note, however that beyond being a very basic guideline for the R&H portion's bare bones, these will form but a small fraction of the army. This is NOT going to be "Legends with a few extra bits"- as per the mission statement (a comprehensive book for the formation of a Lost and the Damned army) it will probably end up being substantially bigger than most "regular" Codexes!

 

The IA compendium will be required as well (I need to get it myself...) as quite aside from anything else some of the new toys will be derived from FW units in some capacity, to say nothing of taking existing datasheets (Malcadors and so forth) and giving them a Chaotic makeover- specifically new options beyond just changing keywords.

 

Other existing books will probably be helpful, specifically the Astra Militarum, Sisters of Battle and Adeptus Mechanicus books. Again, I need to acquire these myself somehow, though it might be worth waiting to see what the new edition brings in terms of new books for the Militarum at the very least. Again, this is for the purpose of "porting" units over to Chaos + adapting them to be more than just re-keyworded versions of their less spiky brethren.

 

Finally, any older FW books (Vraks, IA13 etc) would be helpful to have for the sake of inspiration. Obviously not all rules can be ported over from old editions but some can, at least in spirit, and in any event they're great resources to have. I have IA13 myself and am intending to use it for this very reason.

 

It is worth noting that for anyone wishing to help out, I'm not saying "buy all these books", just that if anyone with access to them wanted to contribute it'd be very much appreciated.

 

IDEAS:
As mentioned, this is going to be far more than just "AM with spikes", so here's some of my miscellaneous ideas for stuff to differentiate them from their Aquila-wearing counterparts...

>Rather than having regimental doctrines like standard Guard, the LATD keywords will be defined by what kind of heretical mob they are. These keywords will be (tentatively) RENEGADE MILITARUM, HERETIC SORORITAS, DARK MECHANICUM, BLASPHEMOUS CULT and UNHOLY COALITION. The first three are fairly self-explanatory. BLASPHEMOUS CULT will be centred around Cultists as the main troops- they will have access to fewer heavy armour units but will have more Psykers and more opportunities for Daemonic allies. UNHOLY COALITION is basically "LATD soup"- you can take more or less anything, but won't get some of the benefits of a "monofaction" army.

>God devotions are taken separately from army faction, and give particular benefits in addition to the existing faction keywords. You can either pick a monotheistic force or go Undivided, in much the same way as any other Chaos army.

>Not every Imperial vehicle and weapon will be available to the LATD, however they will have access to some that the loyalist scum don't have (mostly homebrews). For instance, the "Unicorn Light Tank", a Chimera without transport but with better armour and a more potent main weapon, which...I made up.

>Traitor Sisters, like with everything else in the army, will not be straight spiky versions of the Loyal versions. I'm still thinking how they could vary, but I'm thinking they'd be a bit more "elite" (due to being fewer in number and also heavily favoured by the Gods) and as above would trade some of their vehicles for new ones.

>Dark Mechanicum are possibly the force I'm least certain about beyond them being the furthest removed from their loyalist versions. They'd be "the Daemon Engine faction" of course, but beyond that I'm not sure.

>Unholy Coalitions, to avoid total cheese, might not be able to take every unit available, some of which are "locked in" to the monofaction versions.

 

Anyway, if anyone has any ideas/wants to help out, that would be great! Schlitzaf has already offered to assist, but really anyone who has a contribution, no matter how great or small, is welcome!

[sitnam]

I'd love to help out. I don't really play, I just like listing building for the flavor of it.

 

I will say, I don't think Heretic Sororitas should be a thing. Not to say I'd be opposed to Chaos Sisters in this fandex (it is fairly rare), but I think it'd be fluffier for Sororitas for be a small, elite component of a greater "Blasphemous Ecclesiarchy" type deal. Personal opinion though, I wouldn't get real hung up about it either way.

 

I also think a subfaction option should be added for mutants and abhumans. "MUTANT HORDE" or something like that.

 

I could foresee the use of subfaction key words being a modernized version of Demagogue Devotions, and the various subfactions remind me of how the Drukhari codex works.

 

I know most of the Blackstone Fortress stuff can be represented on the Legends update, but I would like to see the BSF Cultist Firebrand earn a spot in this list. Very cool model

[Schlitzaf]

So mu main suggestions one of my favorites parts from Vraks (and lesser extent servants) was Chaos “Lord” and 1 Power Armored Elite Unit. So I’d like to see, Chaos Lord be 0-1 option/Characters work like they do with GSC and can take 0-1

Plague Marines (if Nurgle Marked)

Zerkers if Khorne

Etc

 

If Undivided/Markless you can take a squad of chosen.

 

Just food for thought

[Tallarn Commander]

It would be nice if R&H could get our deep-striking Blood Slaughterers back. Those sure were fun in 7th. :)

[Evil Eye]

So mu main suggestions one of my favorites parts from Vraks (and lesser extent servants) was Chaos “Lord” and 1 Power Armored Elite Unit. So I’d like to see, Chaos Lord be 0-1 option/Characters work like they do with GSC and can take 0-1

Plague Marines (if Nurgle Marked)

Zerkers if Khorne

Etc

 

If Undivided/Markless you can take a squad of chosen.

 

Just food for thought

Definitely! I think that was one of the cooler ideas from IA13, as it makes perfect sense for CSM to be operating alongside their mortal servants.

 

It would be nice if R&H could get our deep-striking Blood Slaughterers back. Those sure were fun in 7th.

Oh yes, Blood Slaughterers and Blight Drones will absolutely be making their way into the list. I want some Slaanesh and Tzeentch counterparts as well, but obviously they'd need some homebrewing as at present there...aren't any.

[Schlitzaf]

If I may suggest evil before anything else:

1) Core Army;

-1 “Big” HQ (Chaos Lord, Captains and Canoness for Marines. Company Commanders for Gauddsman).

•Renegade Commander suites this well enough

•Chaos Lord style character in which case Renegade is moved to support

-2 “Support” HQ’s (Liutanents, Commissars, Pyskers, etc)

•As of now only Malefic Lords represent. Coven’s kinda but they are more elite units

•Worth to consider Enforcers, or other units

 

Generally an army in 9th Design to have ifs “Big” Leader then supporting meant to help facilitate or encourage army theme’ing

 

Troops/Bulk

-We have Milita, Mutants and otherwise. Our bread and buttter. What role should they fill, what they do informs rest of the army. The “Bulk” aren’t always troops, Leman Russss and Marine Bikers in certain armies.

 

-The Core setup should inform everything else. Will Miltia or Mutants be the “main” Troop Choice (eg Tacticals, Cessors, Infantry Squads, Chaos Marine, Gaurdians etc) what is more “flavor” or spice. I like Militia with Mutants as Flavor.

 

The Fun Stuff

1) Elites: Everyone want everything so we need to pick.

On a base level, Disciplines are Veterans generic evolution from Militia. Solid

 

The Harder Part:

1-3 Genericy R&H Unit usable by a variety of themes but not an elitified bulk unit (Terminators, Command Squad Characters)

2-4 “Theme” Units. This is where interesting cool stuff comes in like Plague Orgyns. These aren’t army locked always but they can be.

 

Fast:

The Genercised Unit made to go fast (Assault Marines, back in the day Armored Fist Squads. Bikers generally. Otherwise for IG its Donain of Light Armour + Assault Weapon Tanks).

 

Chaos Spawn as Generic Unthemed. The Genercised fast unit slightly harder and as before 2-4 Themed Units.

 

Heavy Support

Same stuff as said point above. Russes and Heavy Teams for Genericised Troop + Genercised Non-Troop Special

 

Now for “Themed” Armies (oresumabky 4 + 1. Gods + Undivided) you should have a unit in every slot/brigade legal. But unless we tie units to Tactics. Armies should be advantaged by doing a combined arms detachment.

 

To be clear not saying don’t throw at mininum what is currently legal but try to have a sense of what the army is.

[jarms48]

I wrote this up as a simple "plug and play" type rule. Which allows you to take Astra Militarum Regiment units into Chaos Space Marine Detachments.

 

Lost and the Damned: Replace the Imperium keyword with Chaos, replace the Astra Militarum keyword with Lost and the Damned, replace the <Regiment> keyword with <Mark Of Chaos> and <Legion>. Add Lost and the Damned to the list of Mere Mortals. Lost and the Damned characters may not be given any Artefacts of Chaos and cannot be chosen as your Warlord.

 

In addition Lost and the Damned Infantry units receive the Chaos Cultists and Traitor Guardsmen keywords.

 

What this unlocks:

- Lost and the Damned units would benefit from Abaddon's Lord of the Black Legion ability.

- Lost and the Damned units would benefit from a Chaos Lord's Lord of Chaos ability.

- Lost and the Damned units would benefit from a Daemon Princes Prince of Chaos ability.

- Lost and the Damned units would benefit from a Dark Apostle's Demagogue and Prayers to the Dark Gods (Dark Zealotry, Benediction of Darkness, Warp-sight Plea, Soultearer Portent, Illusory Supplication) abilities.

- Lost and the Damned units would benefit from an Exalted Champion's Aspire to Glory ability.

- Lost and the Damned units would benefit from Huron Blackheart's Lord of the Red Corsairs ability.

- Lost and the Damned units would benefit from Khârn the Betrayer's Kill! Maim! Burn! ability.

- Lost and the Damned units would benefit from Lucius the Eternal's Lord of Slaanesh ability.

- Lost and the Damned units would benefit from Obsidius Mallex's Lord of Chaos ability.

- Lost and the Damned units would benefit from the Traitor Commissar's Enforcer and Forwards! For the Dark Gods! abilities.

- Lost and the Damned units would benefit from Cold and Bitter, The Voice of Lorgar, Veteran Raider, Master of Diversion, Faceless Commander, Bastion, Siege Master, Stoic Advance, and Violent Urgency warlord traits. As with the above, it may seem like a lot, but it is highly dependent on the <Legion> chosen.

- Lost and the Damned units would benefit from Epistle of Lorgar, Remnant of the Maraviglia, and Banner of Rage artefacts of chaos.

- Lost and the Damned units would be able to use Beseech the Chaos Gods and Tide Of Traitors stratagems.

 

Depending on the <Legion> chosen Lost and the Damned units would have access to:

- Lost and the Damned units would be able to use Black Legion Stratagems: Let the Galaxy Burn, Chosen of the Pantheon, World Killers, Merciless Fighters, Tip of the Spear, and Legacy of Horus.

- Lost and the Damned units would be able to use Purge Stratagem: All Life is Worthless.

- Lost and the Damned units would be able to use Crimson Slaughter Stratagem: Terrifying Phenomena.

- Lost and the Damned units would be able to use Scourged Stratagem: Prescience.

- Lost and the Damned units would be able to use Flawless Host Stratagem: We Cannot Fail.

- Lost and the Damned units would be able to use Word Bearers Stratagems: Dark Pact, Cursed Despoilers, Hexagrammatic Ward, and Vengance for Monarchia.

- Lost and the Damned units would be able to use Night Lords Stratagems: In Midnight Clad, Vox Scream, Prey on the Weak, Hit and Run, We Have Come For You, From The Night, and Flay Them Alive.

- Lost and the Damned units would be able to use Alpha Legion Stratagems: Forward Operatives, Conceal, Sabotaged Armoury, Scrambled Coordinates, Renascent Infiltration, Ambush, and Feigned Retreat.

- Lost and the Damned units would be able to use Iron Warriors Stratagems: Iron Within Iron Without, Methodical Annihilation, Dour Duty, Unholy Vigour, Tank Hunters, Cannon Fodder, and Bitter Enmity.

- Lost and the Damned units would be able to use Emperor’s Children Stratagems: Excess of Violence, Incessant Disdain, Honour the Prince, and Tactical Perfection.

- Lost and the Damned units would be able to use World Eaters Stratagems: Scorn of Sorcery, Apoplectic Frenzy, Skulls for the Skull Throne!, Kill! Maim! Burn!, Wild Fury, and Blood for the Blood God!.

- Lost and the Damned units would be able to use Creations of Bile Stratagems: Taken Alive, and Supreme Creation.

 

What this restricts:

- Any form of Astra Militarum regimental doctrines, characters, warlord traits, relics, and stratagems.

- Limits the datasheets to solely <Regiment> units. So no Militarum Tempestus, no Advisors, and Auxilla.

- No longer can ally with any Imperium factions or receive benefits from their abilities. IE: Inquisitors, Celestine, etc.

 

Please note that the above is only current with codex Chaos Space Marines and not codex Death Guard. I'm pretty sure any Lost and the Damned units would be treated the same as Cultists thus losing access to essentially everything above.

Edited May 19, 2021 by jarms48

[Tallarn Commander]

These changes would make the Renegades and Heretics feel more like the old 3rd Edition Lost and the Damned. Which is a good thing.

 

Thanks for taking the time to write up this set of rules!

[jarms48]

These changes would make the Renegades and Heretics feel more like the old 3rd Edition Lost and the Damned. Which is a good thing.

 

Thanks for taking the time to write up this set of rules!

 

Thanks! That was my intention. 

 

I kept the rules as simple as possible for both easy implementation and to make it streamlined. So, if someone was wanting to run a narrative campaign focusing on Chaos invading. Then a player could mix some traitor Guard in with their Chaos Space Marines.

[Goreshed]

This is all GW would have to do....but we all know they wont.

[Excessus]

Personally I don't see the use of swapping <regiment> for <mark of chaos> & <legion>. I mean, they could just add <mark of chaos> to the datasheets and make a new and fitting <regiment> for chaos in a WD article. A strategem per god or something and a bunch of warlordtraits/relics and wouldn't take up more than two pages at most. Adding <legion> seems excessive and would probably only complicate things in the long run.

 

Heck, only swapping <imperium> with <chaos> and choose a fitting <regiment> from Codex: AM would probably be enough for a narrative campaign.

[jarms48]

Personally I don't see the use of swapping <regiment> for <mark of chaos> & <legion>. I mean, they could just add <mark of chaos> to the datasheets and make a new and fitting <regiment> for chaos in a WD article. A strategem per god or something and a bunch of warlordtraits/relics and wouldn't take up more than two pages at most. Adding <legion> seems excessive and would probably only complicate things in the long run.

 

Heck, only swapping <imperium> with <chaos> and choose a fitting <regiment> from Codex: AM would probably be enough for a narrative campaign.

 

This makes more sense for a Renegades and Heretics style force. Mine was based around the old Lost and the Damned, which had Chaos Marines with Guard units. I'd like both to be represented. 

[Excessus]

In that case the <regiment> called "Lost and the Damned" could give the <legion> keyword and the special additions and limitations in your above post.

 

 

Maybe the <regiment> of "Defenders of Vraks" could have their own rules as well, like having csm chosen as an elite choice.

[jarms48]

In that case the <regiment> called "Lost and the Damned" could give the <legion> keyword and the special additions and limitations in your above post.

 

 

Maybe the <regiment> of "Defenders of Vraks" could have their own rules as well, like having csm chosen as an elite choice.

 

Renegades and Heretics: Replace the Imperium keyword with Chaos, replace the Astra Militarum keyword with Renegades and Heretics. In addition Renegades and Heretics Infantry units receive the Traitor Guardsmen keyword.

Renegades and Heretics are limited to choosing two rules from only the Custom Regimental Doctrines List, they can never take a named regiment or named characters. Alternatively, to represent a renegade force descending further into Chaos they may sacrifice taking one rule (to a minimum of 1) during the Regimental Doctrine Creation Process and instead every unit gains the <Mark of Chaos> keyword. If you do this, all models in this detachment must follow the same chosen god (Psykers cannot have the Khorne keyword).

Advisors and Auxilla:

- Tech-Priest Enginseer:

- Servitors

- Aeronautica Imperialis units

- Militarum Auxilla units

- Scholastica Psykana units

- Traitor Commissar

 

That’s my rough idea so far. Obviously needs more tweaking, but there could be a nice distinction between Lost and the Damned going with Chaos Marines, and Renegades and Heretics coming out of the Guard book.

Edited June 4, 2021 by jarms48

[Azekai]

Interesting. Not sure giving up a custom doctrine is commensurate with a Mark of Chaos... regular IG are quite weak at the moment, R&H even more so. You could probably just let them take marks for free. They don't do anything in and of themselves, so they shouldn't really have much of a cost.

Unless you are doing some kinda weird Epidemius build, I am not sure what they would even do, except offer some flavor.

[jarms48]

Interesting. Not sure giving up a custom doctrine is commensurate with a Mark of Chaos... regular IG are quite weak at the moment, R&H even more so. You could probably just let them take marks for free. They don't do anything in and of themselves, so they shouldn't really have much of a cost.

 

Unless you are doing some kinda weird Epidemius build, I am not sure what they would even do, except offer some flavor.

 

It opens up a ton of soup options. So you could bring in some of the most efficient options that also share that mark.

[Garrac]

Hi! Now that a lot of rules have changed and we have various new cult units, any ideas on how to revitalise a project like this? Just interested on doing a crusade LatD proyect

 

I guess I could use this rules to make a traitor IGarmy, but I also like the new current kits, and want to find a way to field them

Edited October 11, 2022 by Garrac

[Wolf Lord Loki]

On 10/10/2022 at 12:51 PM, Garrac said:

Hi! Now that a lot of rules have changed and we have various new cult units, any ideas on how to revitalise a project like this? Just interested on doing a crusade LatD proyect

 

I guess I could use this rules to make a traitor IGarmy, but I also like the new current kits, and want to find a way to field them

 

I put together a list of all the official GW rules and have an idea I'm going to use Vs a friend of mine.

 

It start with the Heretic Astartes codex

HQ - blessed commune

T - cultist

T- accursed mutants and Torments

 

Then basically adds in things like 

E - Traitor commissar

T - Traitor guardsmen 

 

You can take a Mechanicus magos which unlocks 

Nega-volt cultists 

Defiler 

Desicrator 

Greater blight drone (nurgle only)

Blood slaughterers (khorne only)

 

Taking a god mark unlocks units that are marked such as:

Poxwalkers (nurgle)

Tzangors (tzench)