Sons of the Lion (DA Special Doctrines)

[jaxom]

I don't think Fire Discipline is a game changer, but its definitely something to consider in list building and where the power in the army lies.

 

Fire Discipline

While the Tactical Doctrine is active for your army, INFANTRY models from your army (excluding DEATHWING models) can make attacks with Rapid Fire and Assault weapons (excluding Blast weapons) while within Engagement Range of enemy units, but must target an enemy unit that is within Engagement Range of its own unit when they do so. In such circumstances, the model can target an enemy unit even if other friendly units are within Engagement Range of the same enemy unit, and while it is making such an attack, it has a Ballistic Skill characteristic of 5+.

 

The big question which will probably require an FAQ or errata is whether the BS 5+ is meant to be like the old DA rule for Snap Shot and is applied after modifiers (so Fire Discipline always hits on 5+) or if it really is BS 5+ and then modifiers can be applied. Regardless, this rule gives Greenwing some serious versatility and ability to hold the line (assuming they survive the first round of combat). I can't think of a reason to take Deathwing Terminators over Deathwing Knights in a mixed list, however.

Edited January 27, 2021 by jaxom

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think it is clear, ballistic skill changes to 5+ and if you didn't move, then you get +1 to hit from Grim Resolve.

 

Remember you can play a successor that does not use Inheritors of the Primarch: Dark Angels and be hitting on a 5+.

 

May I suggest the topic be changed to Combat Doctrine in general, since Fire Discipline is only part of it?

Edited January 25, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[solarisqc]

it's BS 5+, with grim resolve we will hit on 4+ in melee with assault and rapid fire weapon and on 2+ with pistol

[Angel of Solitude]

Here's my take on it. We have got for infantry a version of what all vehicles in the game got with Big Guns Never Tire. Vehicles got that rule so that they could avoid being 'tagged' in melee combat, and thus having their fire power rendered inoperable.  

 

Currently, infantry units that are similarly tagged have to either fall back (and suffer the relevant consequences such as not being able to shoot) or slug out the melee. This ability allows us to not be as threatened as much by that prospect. We can be aggressive with our high-firepower infantry units without worrying about them being tagged. 

 

Units that I think could really benefit from this:

• Intercessors with either Auto or regular bolt rifles;
• Heavy Intercessors with Heavy Bolt Rifle (Rapid Fire 1) and Hellstorm Bolt Rifle (Assault 3);
• Inceptors;
• Hellblasters with either Assault or regular plasma incinerators.

Eradicators could in theory benefit, but I feel you'd be wasting your Melta Rifle shot by shooting into fight - better to keep them out of range.

 

I'm really interested by this rule, particularly with the different buffs that you give that squad.

[solarisqc]

Something interesting for us to do now is to mix squad together. Having a squad of Deathwing knight and Assault hellblaster for example.

 

Use Line unbreakable on the hellblaster and not many model will be able to attack them in melee, and they will be able to shoot on 4+ the engage unit.

 

DA will be realy dangerous to charge when they can counter attack on 2+ and shoot on 4+ before your next swing. Engaging only 1 model in a unit to lock it in combat can be a bad option even for dedicate melee unit if only 1 model can attack the selected unit.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

Something to note, I think, is that flamers are not blast weapons, and are assault weapons, and therefore you can fire them in combat just as well as pistols and boltguns; indeed they may be flat-out better in some cases, for those of you that run Firstborn marines nowadays. Would be a nice counter-charge threat if the enemy knew that they'd be eating that flamer shot regardless if you overwatched or not, and might make the cost-benefit analysis of 'do I try and melee these tacticals off of an objective' more expensive. Plus, for those of you who run them, it makes assault marines a lot more effective in the shooting phase than they otherwise would be with just pistols.

[Orkinstein]

Something to note, I think, is that flamers are not blast weapons, and are assault weapons, and therefore you can fire them in combat just as well as pistols and boltguns; indeed they may be flat-out better in some cases, for those of you that run Firstborn marines nowadays. Would be a nice counter-charge threat if the enemy knew that they'd be eating that flamer shot regardless if you overwatched or not, and might make the cost-benefit analysis of 'do I try and melee these tacticals off of an objective' more expensive. Plus, for those of you who run them, it makes assault marines a lot more effective in the shooting phase than they otherwise would be with just pistols.

I think, in the shooting phase, you can only use pistol, grenade or other weapons. You cannot fire pistol and bolter at the same time, for the same model of course.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Orkinstein

[Brother Ramael]

Yeah I agree the DA are shaping up to become CQC specialists ( good news since they can support the DW better); flamers are nasty, all bolt weapons are nasty, the heavy intercessors themselves can be dangerous in close quarters with those big, big rifles. The only big losers are ironically the plsmaceptors, since they have blast weapons.

Vets squads with combis, assault centurions....

[Dracos]

I think it is clear, ballistic skill changes to 5+ and if you didn't move, then you get +1 to hit from Grim Resolve.

Totally agree with the first part. Second part doesn’t make sense. If you are at the point you are shooting while in he fight phase there is no way you moved. Seems like Grim Resolve wouldnt apply in that case

[Orkinstein]

Yeah I agree the DA are shaping up to become CQC specialists ( good news since they can support the DW better); flamers are nasty, all bolt weapons are nasty, the heavy intercessors themselves can be dangerous in close quarters with those big, big rifles. The only big losers are ironically the plsmaceptors, since they have blast weapons.

Vets squads with combis, assault centurions....

Well plasma inceptors can simply fall back then spend 2CP to shoot normally while most of green wings can shoot in close combat.

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

I think it is clear, ballistic skill changes to 5+ and if you didn't move, then you get +1 to hit from Grim Resolve.

Totally agree with the first part. Second part doesn’t make sense. If you are at the point you are shooting while in he fight phase there is no way you moved. Seems like Grim Resolve wouldnt apply in that case

 

Grim Resolve applies when you have not moved. Since to shoot into combat you must start the round in combat, it should almost always be applicable and make it 4+ to hit. I was just covering my butt a bit in case there would be a strange circumstance where you are considered to have moved and are shooting into combat.

 

The main thing I wanted to bring up there is that with the new rules, there is now the possibility you have the Dark Angels combat doctrine without Grim Resolve, if you take successor tactics.

[Brother Ramael]

I'm not a rule lawyer, but they're (imho) two totally different things: if you use the doctrine you have BS of 5+, if you are still you have a +1 to the hit roll.

Grim resolve doesn't touch the BS, it's a modifier to the dice roll, why shouldn't it count toward the result?

[Dracos]

I'm not saying you're wrong just when something feels too good (say Aggressors at 4+ in this case) then it likely is. The Apothecary Invader combo as an example. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't really see it as too good to be true, but it is quite nice to have. It's nice to see the standard Greenwing have something good, since much of the rest of the rules is going to focus on Ravenwing and Deathwing. It also won't be the end of the world if they decide the abilities don't work together.

 

For aggressors, I'd rather be shooting the flame weapon instead, which the added bonus to hit wouldn't matter anyways.

 

The best thing about this is that it looks like we will have separate doctrine abilities for Greenwing, Ravenwing and Deathwing, probably tactical, devastator and assault respectively. Just that they're really reinforcing that these operate like separate armies has me excited that it's going to be really fun to play.

Edited January 26, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Isual]

I think they factored grim resolve in on purpose. Because already having an +1 from grim resolve caps you from having any other bonus applied to than unit, while having a 4+ without grim resolve counting would open you up for a 3+ to hit.

[Brother Ramael]

Well, half of the artwork of SM are infantry shooting heretics 30 cm away from them, now you know how

Edited January 27, 2021 by Brother Ramael

[Progenitor]

Does this mean that we're more likely to want to be running Assault Bolter Inceptors now rather than Plasmaceptors as would normally be the case. Or would this still balance out depending on if we regain WotDA in some form? I already have Plasma covered with my Redemptor and Hellblasters anyway but through the last edition Plasma was defintiely one of the defining features of a DAngels army (as well as generally sucking compared to other Chapters). 

[jaxom]

Does this mean that we're more likely to want to be running Assault Bolter Inceptors now rather than Plasmaceptors as would normally be the case. Or would this still balance out depending on if we regain WotDA in some form? I already have Plasma covered with my Redemptor and Hellblasters anyway but through the last edition Plasma was defintiely one of the defining features of a DAngels army (as well as generally sucking compared to other Chapters). 

 

I think it comes down to role. If you plan on using the Inceptors to skirmish back line vehicles or artillery pieces (particularly if either has LoS ignoring rules) then the plasma is still nice. If you plan on shoring up objectives or supporting other units likely to be charged then the assault bolters.

[aura_enchanted]

I think this makes hellblasters better, not where they were with glorious weapons of the dark age but certainly more appealing, assault incinerators especially.

 

I think that the gravis captain with fist and sword only gets better by this

 

And that this also makes scout bikers insanely strong. Scout bikers now have the ability to pump out something absurd like 34 boltgun shots in a single round of firing and now u can't tar pit them to lock it up. Thats quite a bit of firepower

 

Auspex tactics pointed out how this is an aggressors buff, but i think aggressors are still terrible and you should avoid them unless u can somehow grant them buffs from the salamanders in some form of soup

Edited January 26, 2021 by aura_enchanted

[Syphid]

I think this makes hellblasters better, not where they were with glorious weapons of the dark age but certainly more appealing, assault incinerators especially.

 

I think that the gravis captain with fist and sword only gets better by this

 

And that this also makes scout bikers insanely strong. Scout bikers now have the ability to pump out something absurd like 34 boltgun shots in a single round of firing and now u can't tar pit them to lock it up. Thats quite a bit of firepower

 

Auspex tactics pointed out how this is an aggressors buff, but i think aggressors are still terrible and you should avoid them unless u can somehow grant them buffs from the salamanders in some form of soup

Fire Discipline doesn't affect bikers, unfortunately. I don't know how scout bikers are going to turn out after all this, as they aren't Infantry but they also aren't Ravenwing.

[Syphid]

No warcom article today... sad.

[davextreme]

Does this mean that we're more likely to want to be running Assault Bolter Inceptors now rather than Plasmaceptors as would normally be the case.

 

If you’re in combat, yes, the bolters are better, but that’s only for cases where your Inceptors are in melee for more than one round and you didn’t want them to fall back (and maybe shoot with Intractable).

 

Fire Discipline seems more like insurance against a situation you didn’t want—your shooty unit got charged—rather than something you’ll be looking to build around specifically. (Exception being Aggressors where it may tip you toward picking flamers. Maybe a few other units.)

Edited January 26, 2021 by davextreme

[WrathOfTheLion]

They might do an article later, they almost always start with the rumor engine.

[Raychu]

No warcom article today... sad.

my guess is that you are impatient my friend! 

 

wait for it, I bet it'll come later on.

[Raychu]

Well my optimistic nature was wrong. Sorry!