Sons of the Lion (DA Special Doctrines)

[Berzul]

Well my optimistic nature was wrong. Sorry!

 

No worries, brother.

 

Nothing to do but wait.

 

Patience is its own reward.

 

(I think that's how it goes? Like, how we have waited 10k+ years for the Primarch to return?)

[G8Keeper]

RW stuff up:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/01/27/field-an-all-bike-army-with-new-rules-and-stratagems-for-the-ravenwing/

[Angel of Solitude]

Soooo...23" movement for Bikes, Outriders and ATVs units on the first turn, at -1 when shooting. Bikes and Outriders are ObSec too, that's lovely! WIth Melta ATV's / Attack Bikes, armour is going to just melt. Will also be interesting to see what damage you can do with a Flyer that has potential 59" move on the first turn. Nephilim Jetfighters could just wreck stuff on turn 1!

 

Article confirms the Jink special ability is still a thing, but does not explicitly reveal if this applies to ALL Ravenwing units. Hint too at a Librarius power to make them go even FASTER!

 

I like these rules. I like them a lot!

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Sounds like 9th Ed may be a good one for us!

[jaxom]

I renamed the thread to fit the broader topic.

 

Bold added by me

 

 

In a first for a Space Marine Chapter, their special bonus to the Combat Doctrines ability is split into three parts that take effect in different turns.

 

Greenwing got Tactical Doctrine, Ravenwing got Devastator Doctrine, Deathwing getting Assault Doctrine it seems. It's interesting as each kind of turns expectations on their heads. Fire Protocol (Tactical Doctrine) helps in close combat, Speed of the Raven (Devastator Doctrine) helps movement. I'm very curious about what direction the Assault Doctrine bonus takes.

[templarphoenix]

Ouch, never see that coming...so deathwing is assault doctrine then?

[Berzul]

I renamed the thread to fit the broader topic.

 

Bold added by me

 

 

In a first for a Space Marine Chapter, their special bonus to the Combat Doctrines ability is split into three parts that take effect in different turns.

 

Greenwing got Tactical Doctrine, Ravenwing got Devastator Doctrine, Deathwing getting Assault Doctrine it seems. It's interesting as each kind of turns expectations on their heads. Fire Protocol (Tactical Doctrine) helps in close combat, Speed of the Raven (Devastator Doctrine) helps movement. I'm very curious about what direction the Assault Doctrine bonus takes.

Yet, in their own way, each of these really DO help the corresponding units in their respective roles.

[jaxom]

 

I renamed the thread to fit the broader topic.

 

Bold added by me

 

 

In a first for a Space Marine Chapter, their special bonus to the Combat Doctrines ability is split into three parts that take effect in different turns.

 

Greenwing got Tactical Doctrine, Ravenwing got Devastator Doctrine, Deathwing getting Assault Doctrine it seems. It's interesting as each kind of turns expectations on their heads. Fire Protocol (Tactical Doctrine) helps in close combat, Speed of the Raven (Devastator Doctrine) helps movement. I'm very curious about what direction the Assault Doctrine bonus takes.

Yet, in their own way, each of these really DO help the corresponding units in their respective roles.

 

 

Hard agree to that! I'm rather impressed so far and am wondering if Deathwing Assault is going to get slotted in for Assault Doctrine, either as shooting or as setting up from Teleportation within less than 8" of an enemy unit.

[Brother Ramael]

What if the DW had Innate Transhuman in Assault Doctrine only...

We can expect a Goonhammer early review soon enough anyway ( I think friday perhaps? if it goes on preorder saturday)

 

Edit: Bless the Throne, we're being spoiled this time around.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Brother Ramael

[Angel of Solitude]

So with these changes, I think GW are doing an excellent job of creating a chapter that has three distinct elements that synergise well on the battlefield. We’re distinctly moving away from being the “plasma!” chapter, which I feel is very welcome. It does also make me think that WftDA is long gone.

[Hantheman]

Pure unadultered filth. Ravenwing are very, very strong.

[Gederas]

Sounds like 9th Ed may be a good one for us!

Indeed it will! And people are already crying for us to be nerfed. The supplement isn't even out yet!

 

So with these changes, I think GW are doing an excellent job of creating a chapter that has three distinct elements that synergise well on the battlefield. We’re distinctly moving away from being the “plasma!” chapter, which I feel is very welcome. It does also make me think that WftDA is long gone.

Hey, never say never. We still are the "relic" chapter in a way. WftDA could still exist because of that.

 

Pure unadultered filth. Ravenwing are very, very strong.

Dude. Just image Deathwing with this. ObSec in a pure DEATHWING Vanguard Detachment. On units you can only wound on a 4+

 

Lawdy!

Edited January 27, 2021 by Gederas

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

Sounds like 9th Ed may be a good one for us!

Indeed it will! And people are already crying for us to be nerfed. The supplement isn't even out yet!

 

We've upset the natural order  there's a way things need to and have always been, and that way is our rules sucking

 

I can't wait for the Deathwing rules.

[Raychu]

I am very happy to read this news. however I still don't get how Jink will work for everything Ravenwing.

 

As for the Deathwing, they'll get obj. secured, for sure. as for their doctrine, why not a reroll charges and not having -1 to hit?

 

just to come back on this.:

 Hint too at a Librarius power to make them go even FASTER!

 

I read it differently. just that if you have guessed right, then maybe you're a psyker. then the Librarium would like to see you.

[Berzul]

I'm thinking DW might get something like a +1" or +2" to charges, or a reroll to charges, if they arrive via deepstrike, while the Assault Doctrine is active.

[Raychu]

I would just add something.

 

have you read the condition to have the 2nd company rule?

you will have to have a dark angels only army. but also a ravenwing only outrider detachement.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Yes, they had mentioned that in a previous article a month or two back. We get objective secured on bike units only when in a Ravenwing Outrider detachment. There will be an equivalent Deathwing Vanguard detachment.

 

I think this is totally fine, I rather prefer that they push for the Ravenwing and Deathwing to actually play as sub armies.

[G8Keeper]

I would just add something.

 

have you read the condition to have the 2nd company rule?

you will have to have a dark angels only army. but also a ravenwing only outrider detachement.

 

Fine by me.  Promotes mono faction but can still run with different wings in different detachments, perhaps eating the patrol CP for an accompanying greenwing force?  Heck, even paying the 3CP for an additional Vanguard detachment for DW  will have so many rules benefits it's probably worth it.

Edited January 27, 2021 by G8Keeper

[Angel of Solitude]

What G8Keeper said. I think it’s a necessary restriction that counters our ability to make Terminators, BGV, Bikes and Outriders ObSec. No other faction has that ability, other than Deathwatch. But again - they come with some restrictions.

 

I’m genuinely in a quandary - focus around Ravenwing, or focus around Deathwing? Either way, my wallet is going to love me...

[Berzul]

 

I would just add something.

 

have you read the condition to have the 2nd company rule?

you will have to have a dark angels only army. but also a ravenwing only outrider detachement.

 

Fine by me.  Promotes mono faction but can still run with different wings in different detachments, perhaps eating the patrol CP for an accompanying greenwing force?  Heck, even paying the 3CP for an additional Vanguard detachment for DW  will have so many rules benefits it's probably worth it.

 

Also, consider that the main benefit here is that you do not lose the CP for the detachment, and you gain Objective Secured. We do not have our doctrine abilities locked behind these detachment rules.

 

So, you could still bring a mixed force of DW and RW in a Battalion or something else. You'd keep your CP, and lose your Objective Secured, but still have access to all the codex abilities.

 

This rule is clearly meant to be for those who want to play mono faction, and there are still good ways to make multi-wing armies.

[G8Keeper]

What G8Keeper said. I think it’s a necessary restriction that counters our ability to make Terminators, BGV, Bikes and Outriders ObSec. No other faction has that ability, other than Deathwatch. But again - they come with some restrictions.

 

I’m genuinely in a quandary - focus around Ravenwing, or focus around Deathwing? Either way, my wallet is going to love me...

 

Same quandry here.  I have a fair amount of vouchers and birthday/Christmas money saved up for this release, so I'm pretty excited! I've just got to keep enough back for Drukhari.

[Berzul]

You guys think DW might get a +1A in the Assault Doctrine?

 

Maybe to replace the +1A we used to get through the DW Ancient?

[Angel of Solitude]

I’m not sure - isn’t that basically what Blood Angels get?

 

I wonder if it will be something that will allow them to retain their shooting potency while in Assault Doctrine - Deathwing shouldn’t really be a melee force, but a defend-at-all-costs/brutal speartip force with both martial and shooting potency.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I could see that, but the Ravenwing one was a bit of a surprise to me, so I'm open to any possibilities at this point.

 

I do want to appreciate how this ended up working though. This is exactly what I remember wanting when they first announced combat doctrines, something different for each wing.

[Angel of Solitude]

I think GW had to revise their thinking of the Combat Doctrines when they realised allowing an army to stay on one doctrine all game was a bit overpowered (*cough* Iron Hands). I therefore think they’ve tried to come up with something different but along the same theme. Blood Angels have Death Visions, and we now have the tri-wings.

 

In terms of Deathwing, Ravenwing essentially got back from the Codex what was left out of the Index - advancing and shooting. This makes me think Deathwing will have the same treatment. There are two candidates:

1. Deathwing Assault. I believe unlikely as doesn’t really benefit BGV, which GW will want to sell lots of;

2. Never Forgive, Never Forget, so some variation of exploding attacks in melee. It was restricted to Heretic Astartes (6+) and Fallen (4+), but having a blanket 6+ which becomes a 5+ with our Chapter Tactic would be strong for all varieties of Deathwing Terminators, BGV and characters.