Sons of the Lion (DA Special Doctrines)

[bigtrouble]

Seems like CP management is going to be pretty tricky, assuming you want Obsec RW and DW detachments.

[Angel of Solitude]

Well, if you start with a Ravenwing Outrider detachment with a warlord and add a Deathwing Vanguard detachments, then that’s starting CP of 9 before any pre-game strats.

 

The really difficult bit will be incorporating Green Wing into the list, because the minute you create a mixed detachment, you lose the benefits. In theory if everything is ObSec, then that doesn’t matter, but you’ll need some infantry units to help score your Secondaries.

[Berzul]

I think this will be more useful for mono wing and dual wing armies. Honestly, if you are going tri wing, you might as well just go with a battalion. Use your troops for objective secure, or perhaps even Rites of War if you need it (paired with the Angels Ambit, a 9" bubble of Objective Secured is pretty good).

[Archaeinox]

Since my RW/DW combo army is fully painted, there's a good chance I'll keep running it as-is. There are some games where I start at 3CP after Vanguard, Outrider and Warlord Traits. 

 

Saving even 3CP is huge when we have such good strats.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Archaeinox

[jaxom]

I think GW had to revise their thinking of the Combat Doctrines when they realised allowing an army to stay on one doctrine all game was a bit overpowered (*cough* Iron Hands). I therefore think they’ve tried to come up with something different but along the same theme. Blood Angels have Death Visions, and we now have the tri-wings.

 

Of particular note would be the SW and BA both have units or ways to get units to count as in the doctrine their army benefit from (Wolfen, Sanguinary Priest off the top of my head). This can keep parts of their force always in super-doctrine mode. DA get the same thing: parts of a tri-force area always in super-doctrine mode except the super-doctrine moves between unit types.

[Berzul]

 

I think GW had to revise their thinking of the Combat Doctrines when they realised allowing an army to stay on one doctrine all game was a bit overpowered (*cough* Iron Hands). I therefore think they’ve tried to come up with something different but along the same theme. Blood Angels have Death Visions, and we now have the tri-wings.

 

Of particular note would be the SW and BA both have units or ways to get units to count as in the doctrine their army benefit from (Wolfen, Sanguinary Priest off the top of my head). This can keep parts of their force always in super-doctrine mode. DA get the same thing: parts of a tri-force area always in super-doctrine mode except the super-doctrine moves between unit types.

 

We have Brilliant Strategist. That gives you an extra turn of Devastator or Tactical Doctrine for a unit.

[Angel of Solitude]

You also have the Adaptive Strategy stratagem from the Space Marines codex, and the Tactically Flexible Ravenwing Warlord Trait...assuming the Deathwing and Ravenwing Warlord Traits remain. 

 

After re-reading the article, I think it's important to note that it's only the ObSec bonus that you lose from having a mixed-Wing detachment. That means Speed of the Raven is always available for Ravenwing units.

 

Another interesting point...the wording is as follows:

 

"...that attack suffers the penalty incurred to the hit roll as if firing an Assault weapon."

 

If we still get the Impeccable Mobility warlord trait, then the wording on that is as follows:

 

"...models in Ravenwing units from your army that have Advanced this turn do not suffer the penalty for Advancing and firing Assault weapons."

 

Are we potentially back to the Talonmaster of Doom again? (Albeit for a single turn, but with no +6" range?)

 

I suspect I'm jumping the gun here, as they'll probably overhaul the warlord traits anyway :(

[ShadowCore67]

You also have the Adaptive Strategy stratagem from the Space Marines codex, and the Tactically Flexible Ravenwing Warlord Trait...assuming the Deathwing and Ravenwing Warlord Traits remain.

 

After re-reading the article, I think it's important to note that it's only the ObSec bonus that you lose from having a mixed-Wing detachment. That means Speed of the Raven is always available for Ravenwing units.

 

Another interesting point...the wording is as follows:

 

 

"...that attack suffers the penalty incurred to the hit roll as if firing an Assault weapon."

If we still get the Impeccable Mobility warlord trait, then the wording on that is as follows:

 

"...models in Ravenwing units from your army that have Advanced this turn do not suffer the penalty for Advancing and firing Assault weapons."

Are we potentially back to the Talonmaster of Doom again? (Albeit for a single turn, but with no +6" range?)

 

I suspect I'm jumping the gun here, as they'll probably overhaul the warlord traits anyway :(

I'm not sure that would combo with impeccable mobility because speed of the raven doesn't make the guns assault, it just lets you shoot them as if they were. They still retain their original weapon type. And impeccable mobility is strictly for assault weapons.

[ValourousHeart]

 

 

I would just add something.

 

have you read the condition to have the 2nd company rule?

you will have to have a dark angels only army. but also a ravenwing only outrider detachement.

 

Fine by me.  Promotes mono faction but can still run with different wings in different detachments, perhaps eating the patrol CP for an accompanying greenwing force?  Heck, even paying the 3CP for an additional Vanguard detachment for DW  will have so many rules benefits it's probably worth it.

 

Also, consider that the main benefit here is that you do not lose the CP for the detachment, and you gain Objective Secured. We do not have our doctrine abilities locked behind these detachment rules.

 

So, you could still bring a mixed force of DW and RW in a Battalion or something else. You'd keep your CP, and lose your Objective Secured, but still have access to all the codex abilities.

 

This rule is clearly meant to be for those who want to play mono faction, and there are still good ways to make multi-wing armies.

 

I love this change, pure RW outrider detachment getting +3 CP refunded.  I got so used to not having any CP in 8th, and now in 9th I'm spoiled with it.  Given our small squad size for RW units I'm not sure how effective Objective Secured will be.  I think we are still going to have to destroy any units holding objectives.  But attack bikes and ATVs racing up to melta a tank on an objective will score the points even if they whiff.

 

 

 

 

I think GW had to revise their thinking of the Combat Doctrines when they realized allowing an army to stay on one doctrine all game was a bit overpowered (*cough* Iron Hands). I therefore think they’ve tried to come up with something different but along the same theme. Blood Angels have Death Visions, and we now have the tri-wings.

 

Of particular note would be the SW and BA both have units or ways to get units to count as in the doctrine their army benefit from (Wolfen, Sanguinary Priest off the top of my head). This can keep parts of their force always in super-doctrine mode. DA get the same thing: parts of a tri-force area always in super-doctrine mode except the super-doctrine moves between unit types.

 

We have Brilliant Strategist. That gives you an extra turn of Devastator or Tactical Doctrine for a unit.

 

Did I miss an errata for Brilliant Strategist?  When did it change to once per game?  I didn't see it mentioned in the SM FAQ.

[Angel of Solitude]

Don’t think you did. Just checked the GW 40K app, and Brilliant Strategist is still each command phase.

 

The Ravenwing warlord trait is once per battle - perhaps that’s where the confusion is coming from?

 

(Interestingly, I noticed last night that in the latest version of the app, the Deathwing and Ravenwing warlord traits are no longer available for selection. Don’t know if this is a bug, or just preparation for the new codex...)

Edited January 28, 2021 by Angel of Solitude

[Brother Ramael]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/01/28/terminators-secure-objectives-with-new-deathwing-rules-for-dark-angels/

No mention of a doctrine for them but if they keep IC, well...

Edited January 28, 2021 by Brother Ramael

[Angel of Solitude]

No ObSec for Knights or BGV...that’s unexpected and a bit disappointing. Oh well, that’s probably the counter for them getting Transhuman...

 

Interestingly, you can include Ravenwing Black Knights in the detachment because they have the INNER CIRCLE keyword.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Angel of Solitude

[Brother Ramael]

No ObSec for Knights or BGV...that’s unexpected and a bit disappointing. Oh well, that’s probably the counter for them getting Transhuman...

DWK mirror the BK I suppose, about BGV it's a bummer tbh.

[Angel of Solitude]

Rites of Initiation now make sense...you can pay points to give the units the DEATHWING keyword so that they can be included in a Vanguard detachment and still give you the ObSec benefits.

[Brother Ramael]

I will recant my previous comment, while the article doesn't mention any specific doctrine for DW the RW article says explicitely there are 3 of them, sooooo...

[Angel of Solitude]

They still have yet to reveal the Strikemaster, so I suspect we’ll get that tomorrow along with the DW specific doctrine.

[Berzul]

Deathwing Assault is back!!

 

It will IMMEDIATELY get fixed to costing 2cp for squads of over 5 models.... BUT IT IS BACK!!!

[Isual]

Deathwing Assault is back!!

 

It will IMMEDIATELY get fixed to costing 2cp for squads of over 5 models.... BUT IT IS BACK!!!

 

And it's no longer out of phase shooting but a bonus for the following shooting phase.

[WrathOfTheLion]

At the bottom it says, 'Just in case you need your Primaris Captain to be more durable', so it looks to still give a durability bonus.

[Skywrath]

Rites of Initiation now make sense...you can pay points to give the units the DEATHWING keyword so that they can be included in a Vanguard detachment and still give you the ObSec benefits.

 

Lol, called it off the bat, even before the preview.

 

Interesting though, all of these changes might warrant me getting my Dark Angels out..

Edited January 28, 2021 by Skywrath

[WrathOfTheLion]

I tried bringing it up in the initial thread a few weeks ago, but I guess I didn't get the idea across well enough.

 

I was hoping we would get obsec on Bladeguard Veterans, but I guess it isn't meant to be yet.

[G8Keeper]

No Foe Too Great To Subdue is also looking tasty for Deathwing Knights. +1 to wound vs vehicles and monsters with +1 AP too, wounding T7 vehicles on 2's and T8 on 3's with AP-3 (only the maces though, not flail).

Edited January 28, 2021 by G8Keeper

[Brother Ramael]

No Foe Too Great To Subdue is also looking tasty for Deathwing Knights. +1 to wound vs vehicles and monsters with +1 AP too, wounding T7 vehicles on 2's and T8 on 3's with AP-3 (only the maces though, not flail).

Wounding Morty on 3 as well

[davextreme]

 

Wounding Morty on 3 as well

 

 

Also Librarians can strip his aura.

[bigtrouble]

Not too crazy about the new Deathwing assault stratagem, but at least it didn’t disappear. for 5 storm bolters in rapid fire range during tactical doctrine you’ll do an average of 1 additional damage to a T5 3+ Sv unit. Enough to kill 2 models instead of 1 about half the time. Not special. Definitely not worth 2 CP for a full squad of 10.