Sons of the Lion (DA Special Doctrines)

[Orkinstein]

Not too crazy about the new Deathwing assault stratagem, but at least it didn’t disappear. for 5 storm bolters in rapid fire range during tactical doctrine you’ll do an average of 1 additional damage to a T5 3+ Sv unit. Enough to kill 2 models instead of 1 about half the time. Not special. Definitely not worth 2 CP for a full squad of 10.

It only cost 1 CP now.

[Brother Ramael]

Btw if I read it correctly, in the DW detachment you can use Black Knights and keep the rules since they're Inner Circle. Good way to sneak in a RW apotech. as well.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Brother Ramael

[Orkinstein]

Btw if I read it correctly, in the DW detachment you can use Black Knights and keep the rules since they're Inner Circle

 

So... you can even use Sammael

[G8Keeper]

Not too crazy about the new Deathwing assault stratagem, but at least it didn’t disappear. for 5 storm bolters in rapid fire range during tactical doctrine you’ll do an average of 1 additional damage to a T5 3+ Sv unit. Enough to kill 2 models instead of 1 about half the time. Not special. Definitely not worth 2 CP for a full squad of 10.

 

I think it comes into it's own against T8+ units, now wounding on 5's rather than 6's, it's not going to bring one down from full wounds, but it might bracket them or finish them off, where before you'd have had to use dedicated anti-tank. I also think it's going to be useful against T3 units now wounding on 2's, shove a Strikemaster (I assume his rules include re-roll 1's to wound here) in with them and suddenly those 14 hits are mostly, if not all wounding.

[G8Keeper]

Btw if I read it correctly, in the DW detachment you can use Black Knights and keep the rules since they're Inner Circle

Edit: actually there are no FA slots in a vanguard detach. if I remember correctly

 

Black Knights are Elites now :D

 

Also, there's 2 FA slots in a Vanguard detachment.

[Brother Ramael]

 

Btw if I read it correctly, in the DW detachment you can use Black Knights and keep the rules since they're Inner Circle

Edit: actually there are no FA slots in a vanguard detach. if I remember correctly

 

Black Knights are Elites now

 

Also, there's 2 FA slots in a Vanguard detachment.

 

Yeah I edited the comment, you're right

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'd hope we see some way for Land Raiders and Repulsors to count as DT for it. Only 2 heavy support slots.

[bigtrouble]

 

 

Not too crazy about the new Deathwing assault stratagem, but at least it didn’t disappear. for 5 storm bolters in rapid fire range during tactical doctrine you’ll do an average of 1 additional damage to a T5 3+ Sv unit. Enough to kill 2 models instead of 1 about half the time. Not special. Definitely not worth 2 CP for a full squad of 10.

I think it comes into it's own against T8+ units, now wounding on 5's rather than 6's, it's not going to bring one down from full wounds, but it might bracket them or finish them off, where before you'd have had to use dedicated anti-tank. I also think it's going to be useful against T3 units now wounding on 2's, shove a Strikemaster (I assume his rules include re-roll 1's to wound here) in with them and suddenly those 14 hits are mostly, if not all wounding.

Sure, I can see that. You can do 1 maybe 2 more damage to a T8 target before you charge it with power fists. That could help. But is it worth a CP?

 

The same squad would also kill 2 more ork boys, so if you really needed to capture an objective and were outnumbered by only a few models that would definitely be worth the CP.

[G8Keeper]

 

Sure, I can see that. You can do 1 maybe 2 more damage to a T8 target before you charge it with power fists. That could help. But is it worth a CP?

 

The same squad would also kill 2 more ork boys, so if you really needed to capture an objective and were outnumbered by only a few models that would definitely be worth the CP.

 

 

It all depends on the situation in game.  Is that unit on 1 or 2 wounds, would killing it nab you an objective, would 1 wound bracket it and make it easier to deal with in combat?  Are those ork boys stopping you from charging something else, maybe they're at full strength and you want to maximise how many you kill before a charge? etc etc.  I don't think we can simply discard a +1 to wound strat, even when it is only shooting.

[Brother Ramael]

I am sad to see the extreme level of sodium trade in the News forum, at this rate it's the 2nd thread about IC that will get closed there.

[Berzul]

I think it can be REALLY useful for ensuring you clear a particularly pesky unit of infantry from an objective, or to get them out of the way for a charge. Wounding T4 models at 3+, or T3 models at 2+, with 20/40 bolter shots, could help you a good deal.

[Angel of Solitude]

I am sad to see the extreme level of sodium trade in the News forum, at this rate it's the 2nd thread about IC that will get closed there.

 

The number of times I have started composing a response, but then decided against it is too many. I completely understand their perspective - always-on Transhuman is massive. But trying to convince them that it's balanced by other considerations such as mobility and points cost is just lost on them. I also believe it makes your target choices far easier - just spend your energies destroying the rest of my army, instead of that single squad that is sitting on only 1 of the 6 objectives. 

 

A lot of the stuff we are being given is amazing, but I don't think any of it will turn Dark Angels into an OP, point-and-click instant win army that everyone thinks it will. I'm not quite overwhelmed by all the choices we now have, but working out the killer combinations and actually executing them on the table top will still require considerable skill.

[WrathOfTheLion]

There is no point in attempted compromise with them. I tested the waters on that during the last thread a while back, it is completely emotionally driven, and they won't be satisfied until DA are nerfed worse than our 8E rules.

 

It's like the discussions about the Mace of Absolution. It is no better than it was in 8E, and it was a fly on the wall and didn't even merit their attention then. Now it's the worst thing ever and has to go.

 

So be happy with what we have and are getting and enjoy it.

Edited January 28, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Angel of Solitude]

Agreed - DWK have always been absolute wrecking balls of a unit with the ability to make them really tough. However, they’ve suffered from lacking reliable delivery mechanisms and having points to reflect their wrecking ball status. And also being quite immobile once down. Screening against them I guess is too easy.

 

PA improved the delivery mechanism, but at a cost - you now have to fit a Ravenwing bike somewhere in your army, and plan to keep it safe until it’s time to deploy. Their points dropped at the time too, but that’s since been reversed.

 

Agreed, if you manage to get them into an objective then they are very tough to shift, but then their threat range is easily avoided. At the very basic level, nearly 250 points to babysit one single objective is probably not the most efficient way to spend those 250 points.

[Orkinstein]

 

That is the data from GW, I think the strength of DA is fine.

[Fierce Bear]

Has anyone else seen the MWG Vault game between DA termies and DG Termies... We are improved sure but not point and click...

 

And transhuman etc is a trade off as mentioned above, mobility, model count etc... I think our other SM brothers are just learning to love green just as we are deciding to pick between raven black and deathly white

[bigtrouble]

Dark Angels are also the faction people love to hate. It is what it is.

[jaxom]

 

 

Not too crazy about the new Deathwing assault stratagem, but at least it didn’t disappear. for 5 storm bolters in rapid fire range during tactical doctrine you’ll do an average of 1 additional damage to a T5 3+ Sv unit. Enough to kill 2 models instead of 1 about half the time. Not special. Definitely not worth 2 CP for a full squad of 10.

I think it comes into it's own against T8+ units, now wounding on 5's rather than 6's, it's not going to bring one down from full wounds, but it might bracket them or finish them off, where before you'd have had to use dedicated anti-tank. I also think it's going to be useful against T3 units now wounding on 2's, shove a Strikemaster (I assume his rules include re-roll 1's to wound here) in with them and suddenly those 14 hits are mostly, if not all wounding.

I don’t have time to do the math, but my gut says assault cannons are the big winner with it. May only be D1, but the volume of shots wounding most heavy infantry on 2s could be worth it.

[Aeri]

Isn't this also perfekt against t4 models? (Like marines)?

[Archaeinox]

I should take this time to mention that when I ran Hellfyre Missile Racks with my 5 Scarab Occult Terminator for TS, popping Veterans of the Long War for 1 CP (the +1 to wound rolls strat for infantry), it was typically very helpful. Forgive the TS comparison, but I feel like the damage output of 5 Scarabs is similar to 5 shooty Deathwing over the course of a game. The deathwing will survive longer, so those AP0 stormbolters will crack away longer than the inferno bolts. Might as well get +1 to wound if you teleport.

 

For those of us who use Cyclone Missile Launchers, it might be of some value. Don't forget about Fury of the First. I think that's in shooting phase. It just gets a lot out of a small unit if you happen to be high on CP. 

 

If you start with fairly low CP, no, you prob won't see much benefit.. but this is def built for Cyclones.

 

Worst case, we just dont use the strat. there's tons of other tasty ones

Edited January 29, 2021 by Archaeinox

[Skywrath]

 

That is the data from GW, I think the strength of DA is fine.

 

You do realise when we get our codex, you can expect that number to go up substantially, right? Thanks for showing the data though.

 

Sad to see my Grey Knights be brought so low :(

Edited January 29, 2021 by Skywrath

[Orkinstein]

 

 

That is the data from GW, I think the strength of DA is fine.

 

You do realise when we get our codex, you can expect that number to go up substantially, right? Thanks for showing the data though.

 

Sad to see my Grey Knights be brought so low

 

 

Well, most people complain that inner circle is OP but the data shows that it is okay, isn't it? When other faction get their codex, the balance will be back. So, I am not too worry about that   

[Orkinstein]

I found normal terminators from codex could be interesting. They have teleport homer that can deployed again. In 1st company detachment, they have objective secure. They will be quite good to grab objectives.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I was also thinking of grabbing a Terminator Assault squad box. With the extra shoulderpads and all leftover from building Deathwing Knights, should have enough bits to make them quite a bit more Deathwing. Now that we have some more options available, I'm a bit interested in adding some of them.

 

Combining some of the base Space Marine terminator kits should add some more variety as well if it all comes together right.

Edited January 29, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Aeri]

Im still not getting any new terminators because I fear they are getting the first born treatment sooner or later. Did I already mention in this thread, that I want some Primaris Terminators?