Sons of the Lion (DA Special Doctrines)

[WrathOfTheLion]

It is not that I am aware of, I think chapter litanies as a whole have been removed from the game.

[Berzul]

I am absolutely loving what this book has done for my classic HQ team. Which is a Company Master and his First Lieutenant, both on Jump Packs.

 

I usually play my Company Master as a monster hunter, and my Lieutenant as more of a light infantry slayer.

 

While the Company Master stays the same (Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Bolter, and one Warlord Trait which I think will most likely be Brilliant Strategist with this book), the Lieutenant becomes so much better at his own role.

 

At 95 points (which is a steal) and 2 CP (for Hero of the Chapter and Paragon of the Chapter), he comes with a Jump Pack, the Teeth of Terra, and both The Imperium's Sword and Calibanite Knight. That means that this guy, on the charge, hits 8 times at 2+, always wounding infantry on 2+, at AP-2 and D2... So, aside from 3W models (Terminators, mostly) or -1D models (Death Guard, mostly), this guy will wreak havoc wherever he goes.

 

You could even sacrifice 2 attacks and instead take the Heavenfall Blade, you gain two points of AP. So, that's 6 attacks at 2+/2+, AP-4, D2... Love it.

 

I know this is not the best or most optimized combo out there, but given that I play casual matches, and I play what models I have (which means that a lot of otherwise more amazing units such as Bike Chaplains with Mantra of Strength are not available to me), this IS really good.

[SmiteThemAll]

Does anyone know if we can take chaplains or interrogator chaplains on bikes as ravenwing?

[Malakithe]

Ima go ham on BGV. 5 + support guy and launch them via impulsars. Probably 2 groups of such

[Angel of Solitude]

Does anyone know if we can take chaplains or interrogator chaplains on bikes as ravenwing?

Outside of Legends, the only chaplain that had the RAVENWING keyword is the Primaris Chaplain on Bike.

[olsol]

Just thought of an interesting combo: giving the DWK sergeant the Master-Crafted relic, making his flail D3.

 

Because of its ability, those extra wounds would not be lost after killing a model, so it pretty much increases his damage output against everything!

[TempestBlade]

We can do a tough as nails captain or lieutenant too. Deathwing with mace and shield, shield eternal, and the -1 damage DW warlord trait. Drop him in and laugh as they try to deal with a can’t be wounded on 1-3, 1+/4++/5+++ termine hitting on 2s with a str 8 ap-2 (-3 in assault) damage 3 weapon. In assault too he would reroll wounds against wound characteristics 8+ too. Man I hope we don’t get nerfed for this...

[SmiteThemAll]

 

Does anyone know if we can take chaplains or interrogator chaplains on bikes as ravenwing?

Outside of Legends, the only chaplain that had the RAVENWING keyword is the Primaris Chaplain on Bike.

 

 

 

This is sad, I haven't played a game with the new space marine codex so I'm not up to speed with whats possible anymore. I've spent so much time/money converting/painting my interrogator chaplain on bike and now its actually a detriment to my army if I take him. Oh well, guess I'll tear him apart and make a CM on bike?

 

Ha I used to have a Company master on a bike years ago, then they erased that so I took him to pieces, guess I should have waited a few years.

 

Also sableclaw is gone ?!?

 

Can we at least still have librarians on bikes?

[Gederas]

Does anyone know if we can take chaplains or interrogator chaplains on bikes as ravenwing?

Outside of Legends, the only chaplain that had the RAVENWING keyword is the Primaris Chaplain on Bike.

This is sad, I haven't played a game with the new space marine codex so I'm not up to speed with whats possible anymore. I've spent so much time/money converting/painting my interrogator chaplain on bike and now its actually a detriment to my army if I take him. Oh well, guess I'll tear him apart and make a CM on bike?

 

Ha I used to have a Company master on a bike years ago, then they erased that so I took him to pieces, guess I should have waited a few years.

 

Also sableclaw is gone ?!?

 

Can we at least still have librarians on bikes?

Only Captain on Bike and Primaris Chaplain on Bike are outside of Legends.

 

And they never updated the other Legends Bike Characters to have the Ravenwing keyword anyways

[Zustiur]

Just thought of an interesting combo: giving the DWK sergeant the Master-Crafted relic, making his flail D3.

 

Because of its ability, those extra wounds would not be lost after killing a model, so it pretty much increases his damage output against everything!

That's a very good pickup. Similarly, a Strike Master could be given a master crafted mace of absolution for D4.

[jaxom]

 

 

 

Does anyone know if we can take chaplains or interrogator chaplains on bikes as ravenwing?

Outside of Legends, the only chaplain that had the RAVENWING keyword is the Primaris Chaplain on Bike.

 

This is sad, I haven't played a game with the new space marine codex so I'm not up to speed with whats possible anymore. I've spent so much time/money converting/painting my interrogator chaplain on bike and now its actually a detriment to my army if I take him. Oh well, guess I'll tear him apart and make a CM on bike?

 

Ha I used to have a Company master on a bike years ago, then they erased that so I took him to pieces, guess I should have waited a few years.

 

Also sableclaw is gone ?!?

 

Can we at least still have librarians on bikes?

Maybe just says he’s one of the shorter Primaris Chaplains on a bike?

 

Character mobility has been a place of weakness for marines since 8th. It wouldn’t surprise me to see jump pack options phased out over time except for maybe Blood Angels.

[palin2222]

So if I am understanding this correctly:

 

During the second turn, and only the second turn. Any non-deathwing infantry unit can shoot their Boltgun in close combat. If they do, they hit on 5+. Unless im missing something this is likely going to be a rule that rarely, if ever, comes into play. It would require a unit being in close combat with a unit at the start of the second turn. Yeah I guess it give a small chance for a meltgun or a plasma gun of actually being able to do something, but 10 bolt pistols hitting on 3s  and 20 boltgun shots hitting on 5's both have 6.6 hits, Doesn't seem like much of an advantage. 

 

 

 

[Berzul]

So if I am understanding this correctly:

 

During the second turn, and only the second turn. Any non-deathwing infantry unit can shoot their Boltgun in close combat. If they do, they hit on 5+. Unless im missing something this is likely going to be a rule that rarely, if ever, comes into play. It would require a unit being in close combat with a unit at the start of the second turn. Yeah I guess it give a small chance for a meltgun or a plasma gun of actually being able to do something, but 10 bolt pistols hitting on 3s  and 20 boltgun shots hitting on 5's both have 6.6 hits, Doesn't seem like much of an advantage. 

I think it will mostly come into play when your Helblasters, of your Flamestorm Agressors, get wrapped up turn 1 or turn 2.

[palin2222]

Doesn't seem too useful. Oh well

[WrathOfTheLion]

Tactical doctrine can extend to the third turn, so it will come up a bit more. However, one or two rounds of combat may occur before getting to shoot, depending on who charged. As well if playing with deathwing, probably want to immediately go to assault doctrine on turn three.

 

So it isn't something I would build around, although it will come up sometimes.

Edited January 31, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[palin2222]

I liked the tactical doctrines a lot better when I could choose when/if they advance. How they are now, its just an extra rule to pay attention to with no actual benefit or strategic value. Then being stuck with a super doctrine that will have no value in 9 out of 10 games is just an extra slap in the face. 

 

If they wanted to make it useful, they should have let us select one at the start of the game, and we can pay a CP to change it to one of the others

Edited January 31, 2021 by palin2222

[WrathOfTheLion]

The way it progresses is the first turn, the devastator super doctrine is active for Ravenwing, turn 2 and possibly 3, the normal chapter super doctrine is active, and then turns 3 or 4 and beyond, the Deathwing assault super doctrine is active. Edited January 31, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Brother Ramael]

The point is that we, differently from how many of our detractors see it, don't get 3 superdoctrines instead of one ( which is the strenght of some chapters like BA, since theirs is great); we get instead a jigsaw puzzle we need to assemble, juggling the army so that when the clock ticks for a part of our doctrine the army is the right spot to use it.

If all we had were the "Sons of the Lion" ability, I would have a hard time saying we're there with the best superdoctrine around, but we get some very very very good rules for specialized units, which is what makes people's blood boil.

I wont deny they're awesome rules though.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Brother Ramael

[WrathOfTheLion]

They're great rules, but I think it's that the Wings offer something really interesting and just more fun to do. There's a dynamic to the army that is not replicated in other chapters, so it's like a new thing they *know* won't come to them. That is what I think it is, and it's exacerbated by sharing a codex now.

 

To many players, it looks like they spent a lot more effort on these rules. Which they probably did, as when looking back, they even hinted at some of this. When 9E was first announced, the rules team went off talking about playing full Deathwing armies, which sounds a bit more in context now.

Edited January 31, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[jaxom]

I liked the tactical doctrines a lot better when I could choose when/if they advance. How they are now, its just an extra rule to pay attention to with no actual benefit or strategic value. Then being stuck with a super doctrine that will have no value in 9 out of 10 games is just an extra slap in the face. 

 

If they wanted to make it useful, they should have let us select one at the start of the game, and we can pay a CP to change it to one of the others

 

_{The next bit is not directed at anyone specifically, but the general sentiment which has been floating around since the errata to Combat Doctrines.}

 

Why is Codex: Space Marines a good starter codex? Because it forces the player to see almost every phase of the game. One cannot read through it and avoid thinking about the interactions of doctrines, units, and how a game may progress.

 

Why is Codex: Space Marines hard to master? Because it forces the player to leverage almost every phase of the game. Without a super-doctrine to reinforce a particular play style, one must aim to maximize every benefit and that is really hard to do.

 

That's my view of it - Combat Doctrines was always meant to get players thinking about the game as a whole. The errata backed that up. The (previous?) best super-doctrines mitigate some list choices while strengthening others. Mediocre super-doctrines mitigate tactical mistakes or strengthen tactical decisions. Bad super-doctrines require a specific task-oriented goal. The strength of the sub-faction is not the same as the same as strength of the super-doctrine. Chapter Tactic, stratagems, warlord traits, special units - all have to be taken into consideration and balanced against each other.

 

The point is that we, differently from how many of our detractors see it, don't get 3 superdoctrines instead of one ( which is the strenght of some chapters like BA, since theirs is great); we get instead a jigsaw puzzle we need to assemble, juggling the army so that when the clock ticks for a part of our doctrine the army is the right spot to use it.

If all we had were the "Sons of the Lion" ability, I would have a hard time saying we're there with the best superdoctrine around, but we get some very very very good rules for specialized units, which is what makes people's blood boil.

I wont deny they're awesome rules though.

 

Emphasis mine (apologies, Brother Ramael). "First Legion," "The First," "the original space marines," how often do we see these phrases pop up on the board? Sons of the Lion reinforces the core theme of Codex: Space Marines; think about what your army uniquely benefits from in each phase (both literal and referring to the progression of a game from turn 1 to turn 5) and how you need to leverage it. And just like C:SM, leaving certain unit types out of the list means losing out on the perks. Many other Chapter Tactics and super-doctrines cover the loss of flexibility by reinforcing specific unit actions (e.g. assault); with the assumption that is why players want to play those sub-factions. Dark Angel players can now choose to embrace the design philosophy of C:SM - as The First - or that of the supplements and focus on a particular play style. The latter has mitigation (like other supplements), but in the form of strong units and stratagems. 

 

WrathOfTheLion sums it up nicely.

 

They're great rules, but I think it's that the Wings offer something really interesting and just more fun to do. There's a dynamic to the army that is not replicated in other chapters, so it's like a new thing they *know* won't come to them. That is what I think it is, and it's exacerbated by sharing a codex now.

 

To many players, it looks like they spent a lot more effort on these rules. Which they probably did, as when looking back, they even hinted at some of this. When 9E was first announced, the rules team went off talking about playing full Deathwing armies, which sounds a bit more in context now.

 

An all-bike/fast attack or all-terminator legal list being the sole realm of the Dark Angels has not been a truth for a long time.  Other Chapters can lean into how they should look beyond the usual mixed unit detachments (the traditional Force Org charg) and still benefit. A Blood Angel army of only elite and fast attack jump-pack troops doesn't lose out on an army-wide rule, a White Scar army of only bikers doesn't lose out on an army-wide rule, etc. They benefit more in some ways (compared to the loss of flexibility). The special units and (WLT, strat, and relic) combinations Blood Angels and White Scars have make some of their most powerful options still available in such armies. And so there is a trade off in terms of CP and ObjSec.

 

I can understand why the design team is so proud of the Dark Angel rules. Previous army-wide rules for Dark Angels made doing something similar to hamstringing oneself (Ravenwing, not so much for two specific lists). Ravenwing armies don't benefit from standing still, Deathwing armies don't benefit from morale-mitigation, both required a lot of CP to be competitive against other armies. If I recall correctly, one of the competitive Ravenwing lists used 9 or 12 CP by the end of turn 1. A Blood Angel list could do the same, but it didn't have to to remain competitive (not even talking tournament competitive, just not 'remove by end of turn 2'). The extra CP helps make up for missing out on all the benefits of the Chapter Tactic. The strength of the units helps mitigate them not being super-good (seriously, how often have non-relic Terminators been panned by players during 8th edition). We're going to see Deathwing and Ravenwing armies regularly, I think.

 

And here's the crux of it in my mind: Deathwing and Ravenwing armies are so Dark Angels that they've always been stressed as occurring more often than other formation variant in other chapters. They should be an option and anything less than what the upgrades they got would have seen the more tournament/competitive Dark Angel players dipping into their new C:SM options (e.g. Assault Centurions). 

[Berzul]

I agree with the general sentiment.

 

We might not have the strongest super doctrine; and we might not even be able to use it in its entirety every battle.

 

But, it just makes sense. We are the combined arms chapter. The template astartes. The first legion. We SHOULD have a doctrine that reinforces these traits and way of war.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The doctrine works exactly how a lot of DA players wanted it to work when they were first announced. Separate effects for the standard chapter, Ravenwing and Deathwing is a straightforward position to arrive at.

[LucidNinja]

Just a quick question, do DA still have access to the chapter command upgrades? Looking at the points at the end of guerillas review and they are not listed there.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Yes, those are in the base codex.

[LucidNinja]

Thank you, wasn't sure if it would have needed to be in the supplement as well.