More Attacks... For Kabalites? (And other codex reveals)

[ThePenitentOne]

So this was on Warcom today: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/02/08/snatch-a-sneak-peek-of-the-faster-sharper-drukhari/

 

I love the news about the Splinter Cannon inflicting 2 damage.

 

But I'm concerned about Kabalites that get an extra attack. It just doesn't seem like they are the unit that needed this. If Kabalites get +1 attack, what's left in the tickle trunk for Wyches?

 

And does an upgrade to basic Kabalites dash hopes for the resurrection of Trueborn?

Edited February 26, 2021 by TrawlingCleaner

[Karhedron]

1 extra S3 Ap-0 attack is not exactly going to upset the meta. I guess it might help them get stuck in to the occasional chaff unit but by and large, this will have little effect.

 

Admittedly the 4+ save is slightly better but they will still be prone to dying if anyone sneezes in their general direction.

[WarriorFish]

Agreed, it's not going to be making much difference as it's not like this is what Warriors are for but it'll help :) The 4+ save is more notable as it means they're no longer made out of paper. Being made out of cardboard isn't a huge step up but if you think about your odds of a save against AP-1 weapons nobody will be complaining. If you field a Kabal you have Warriors anyway right? Hopefully they're not getting pricey for the changes.

 

Wyches will like the attack more of course but since they're looking at saves also perhaps we can hope for some tickling there too? Even something like a reduced invulnerable against shooting would go far. Looking forward to finding out more, this along with the Incubi changes are an encouraging start :)

[GrinNfool]

Splinter cannons.... eh they will basically stay only being on venoms and possibly on razorwings now.  The heavy change makes it even less likely you will throw them on scourges or kabalites.  They are basically just a worse heavy bolter... hopefully GW doesn't price them as a heavy bolter.  Honeslty they are about half as good as a heavy bolter, worse vs t4 or less, worse vs vehicles, the same vs t5 infantry and better vs t6+ not very many of those targets.  Its worth about 5-8 points somewhere, but I'm betting GW point it at 10-15 somewhere.  If GW points it at 5-8 I will be excited for these, but I won't get my hopes up til we see points.  That said, they aren't bad, just unfortunately splinter cannons were a large part of our anti horde options (which we didn't have many ranged options) and they turned it into anti MEQ, but hey they are a reasonable pick vs marines now on venoms so take what we can get.

 

Kabalites being at 4+ is nice at least they might get to actually make a save occasionally now, its not like it will massively up their survival, but again its not like anyone expects kabalites to live.  So any chance they do is welcome.  This honestly is the change I am most excited for.

 

The +1a makes me laugh honestly... first 3-4 custom kabals are combat focused, and now we get +1a for kabalites.  Someone at GW REALLY is in love with the idea of kabalites being a combat unit lol.  But in all seriousness, they can potentially charge guardsmen, cultists, termagants etc, and actually get a few kills to finish off a unit, and their 4+ save would actually make a difference vs most units they would potentially charge, so it gives them more flexibility even if its not necessarily something you will want to utilize in most matchups, it can still find a use occasionally.

 

So its not like anything here was bad they are improvements, just nothing to really get excited about either.  I think if the cannon was 4 shots or even 5 I would have something to get happy about, but making it a worse heavy bolter is kinda like, eh ok I guess I can use it on venoms.  Hopefully future previews can provide something to really look forward too as opposed to, a, "Oh thats nice that they got something."

Edited February 8, 2021 by GrinNfool

[Medjugorje]

So this was on Warcom today: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/02/08/snatch-a-sneak-peek-of-the-faster-sharper-drukhari/

 

I love the news about the Splinter Cannon inflicting 2 damage.

 

But I'm concerned about Kabalites that get an extra attack. It just doesn't seem like they are the unit that needed this. If Kabalites get +1 attack, what's left in the tickle trunk for Wyches?

 

And does an upgrade to basic Kabalites dash hopes for the resurrection of Trueborn?

 

I think otherwise. I like the fact that DE will be superior in melee against normal guardman, Termagants and Firewarriors which all used to be on par. 

On the other hand I had prefered Splinter Cannon being Assault 4 or staying Rapid Fire 3 with -1 AP but still one damage .

Poinsonweapons should be the choice against mass infantry. What me concerned mostly is that our army get more heavy weapons.

 

I dont like the way 40k had taken away the oppurtunity to move or shoot (not allowed to shoot or get penalties if you had moved in the movement phase ) for all armies. That  used to be a DE thing not harmed by such rules. Now everyone is that fast and has this abilities while we get opposit treatment for our infantry???

That sounds really stupid.

 

 

EDIT: just saw that 4+ change. If I havent read here I would have overlooked it. This is the biggest change. It depends on the point cost changes but I think this is a huge buff if you play more of them and I hope they are worth it.

 

EDIT2:

 

@GrinNfool

 

90 percent of what you said I think absolutely similar. But what you maybe forget is that durability, the cheap point costs of kabalites and the cheap weapon options for the Leader of such a Kabalite unit (and of course +1 attack) with the new costum kabalites (maybe we see changes in the better known too) maybe we have the opportunity to make them efficient. DE used to be more melee oriented. Spamming Venoms with splinter cannons never was the way GW liked them to be played and in new edition we need everything in close combat we can find - especially OBSEC troops.

 

And maybe all units gain this treatment. + Archons used to be just buffing characters for the shooting part which I never felt comfortable with - I hope we will see them as Meleemonster they used to be in 3rd edition when they wiped out complete terminator squads alone

Edited February 8, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Snazzy]

I have a theory that this is less about boosting Kabalites, and more about a way of subtilty undermining them as 5 man and a Blaster riding in a Venom spam.  The change in how Splinter Cannons work reinforces this to me. EDIT: this also severely undermines Dark Technomancer armies, too.

 

Genuinely considering the use of Expert Flayers and Deadly Deceivers now.  It all depends on points and Power From Pain works.  I envision scenarios where 9 ordinary Kabalites cause 7 wounds in melee to a MEQ using a combination of Expert Flayers and Power From Pain.  PfP was always wasted on Kabalites outside of 6+++.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Snazzy

[Lord_Ikka]

The +1 attack and better save now make the 9 point cost per kabalite a little easier to stomach- at least they might last slightly longer against bolters. The attack itself isn't such a big deal as nobody but GW views regular Kabalites as a close-combat unit. I have a feeling that Wyches will not be left out and will get their own bonuse, whether that is some sort of natural AP for their attacks or something along the lines of an extra attack when charging/charged.

 

The splinter cannon was never really on my radar as an infantry-born weapon- I didn't use Kabalites in 10+ man squads and my Scourges have other weapons that they use for their role of anti-tank/heavy infantry.

[Angel of Death]

So this was on Warcom today: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/02/08/snatch-a-sneak-peek-of-the-faster-sharper-drukhari/

 

I love the news about the Splinter Cannon inflicting 2 damage.

 

But I'm concerned about Kabalites that get an extra attack. It just doesn't seem like they are the unit that needed this. If Kabalites get +1 attack, what's left in the tickle trunk for Wyches?

 

And does an upgrade to basic Kabalites dash hopes for the resurrection of Trueborn?

LOL but i get exactly what you mean. Giving 1 more attack to the kabbalites instead of the wyches is like giving the bone to a cat instead of the dog.

Kabbalites arent going to do anything with that attack, except maybe kill an armorless enemy here and there.

Wyches are at this point possibly one of the weakest units in the entire game, i remember that wych-cult enthusiasts have been crying out

for atleast 1 more attack. Wyches could actually become much more better if they let them take agonisers again (not just the sybarite)

and give them some form of stat that distance them atleast slightly from the laughable, disgenious position of lousiness they are in now.

 

Until then, i will continue to secretly despise wyches!

[Medjugorje]

normal chainswords for astartes became -1 ap

powerswords +1S

claws got +1 a for each claw.

 

And I think drukhari will get an similar treatment and even Kabalites will be good in melee.

[Angel of Death]

Lol. Powerswords -1 ap. Mo :cuss.

 

I wonder if any upgrades will be made to the covens. *rubs hands together

[Medjugorje]

Lol. Powerswords -1 ap. Mo .

 

I wonder if any upgrades will be made to the covens. *rubs hands together

 Powerswords have +1 S and -3 ap

 

I think thats poison weapons which gain -1 ap

[Angel of Death]

 

Lol. Powerswords -1 ap. Mo .

 

I wonder if any upgrades will be made to the covens. *rubs hands together

 Powerswords have +1 S and -3 ap

 

I think thats poison weapons which gain -1 ap

 

Typo. I meant the thing you said in the previous post.

[Medjugorje]

Drazar is a beast now. Everything is so much stronger in melee now. Even the warriors.

[SpiritFox22]

Drazar is a beast now. Everything is so much stronger in melee now. Even the warriors.

The Kabalites getting the extra swing isn't that great IMO.  The extra swing on Kabalites isn't going to help much at all since they're the only shooting troop option DE get at all.  Sure you'll be better than Guard but a min squad of SM's are gonna wipe them in melee regardless.

 

Drazhar yes I'll agree is gonna slap if he keeps the fights twice ability, adding him getting the points increase I assume he will.  He's gonna be our smash captain equivalent and will do it well.

 

The thing the DE codex needs the most is making the HQ's worth a damn, because lets be real Archons/Succubi/Hammy's are nothing more than a tax currently.  Succubi need to be better in melee than the Archon base, that includes losing their -1 to hit from their glaives.  Hammeys weapon list is a joke and their aura is mostly going to get forced to be Core only.

 

But more than that they need to get rid of the forced Realspace Raiders   as it literally kills customization of armies besides.  Yes I'm still very salty that we're forced to play 3 mini-codex's that are C-tier at best.

Edited February 26, 2021 by TrawlingCleaner
Swear-filter dodge

[Angel of Death]

 

Drazar is a beast now. Everything is so much stronger in melee now. Even the warriors.

The Kabalites getting the extra swing isn't that great IMO.  The extra swing on Kabalites isn't going to help much at all since they're the only shooting troop option DE get at all.  Sure you'll be better than Guard but a min squad of SM's are gonna wipe them in melee regardless.

 

Drazhar yes I'll agree is gonna slap if he keeps the fights twice ability, adding him getting the points increase I assume he will.  He's gonna be our smash captain equivalent and will do it well.

 

The thing the DE codex needs the most is making the HQ's worth a damn, because lets be real Archons/Succubi/Hammy's are nothing more than a tax currently.  Succubi need to be better in melee than the Archon base, that includes losing their -1 to hit from their glaives.  Hammeys weapon list is a joke and their aura is mostly going to get forced to be Core only.

 

But more than that they need to get rid of the forced Realspace Raiders BS as it literally kills customization of armies besides.  Yes I'm still very salty that we're forced to play 3 mini-codex's that are C-tier at best.

 

I think it could be an idea to let wyches take plasma weapons again (agonisers). Back in 6:th or something, wyches could take up to 3 agonisers per squad. Combine that with their unique 4+ dodge save. But today they have nothing but 2 lousy attacks. Compared to what other units can get for the same cost, 20-30 attacks is a   in the ocean. I have had kabbalites who deal like 140 dices in one turn. You just cant get to that level with wyches today. Even if we are thinking tons of squads of wyches. 1 more attack to kabbalites really does nothing, they dont have the same muscles as the wracks. (thats why they hide in a corner and kill stuff from a distance).

 

Realspace raiders is really a non-issue for me, since i play pure coven. And if I take anything other than that, it would rather be a different army.

 

Oh, and also, wracks dropped in points costs to 8pts/model. Atleast we get to be winners in this, without the slightest bit of effort. Just felt like i had to spread some salt in your wounds there.

Edited February 26, 2021 by TrawlingCleaner

[TrawlingCleaner]

There's some great discussion in here, if Kabalites and Wyches are getting an additional attack each I wonder what else will be too. If most units got a boost in that regard that would be pretty big, it would also make some units a lot more viable like Helions. I guess we'll see soone when they start to show off some more rules and people start getting more of the new boxes! In case you haven't seen the Wych changes:

 

 

On a moderator note, please watch your language when posting on the B&C, Acronyms still count here (you can find more information here)

[Medjugorje]

There is a new leak. Venoms have one attack more and -1 AP with S6 on the attacks. 

Sadly just 16" movement.

[Lord_Ikka]

Why would we assume Venoms would get more than 16" movement? That seems pretty standard for their "class" of light hover transport/tank, such as the Starweaver/Wave Serpent/Falcon.

[SpiritFox22]

Why would we assume Venoms would get more than 16" movement? That seems pretty standard for their "class" of light hover transport/tank, such as the Starweaver/Wave Serpent/Falcon.

Honestly it's more on the discussion of why they're not faster than them since the Venom is both smaller, has weaker weapons, and has less armor/survivability than any of the other options.  Which should be reflected in their stats, but GW isn't known for making great decisions with DE.

 

Though the other part of the leak for Venoms is interesting.  Bladevanes becoming Str+1 AP-1 is a tasty thought for Reavers, since now they can benefit from the +1 Str drug when that follows through to them.

 

 

 

[Lord_Ikka]

What they really need to do is just up the transport capacity to 6 for Venoms, to equal what Harlequins have in their Starweavers. Starweavers would still be superior, with their 4++, but giving the Venoms the extra transport slot would make them so much more versatile and help out all the Drukhari sub-factions by allowing HQs to hop aboard along with MSU squads, rather than having to go on one solo or with various Court models.

[GrinNfool]

Eh would have been nice to see this go to t6, or at least 7 wounds, especially in the 2 wound marine meta everyone will be bringing 2 damage guns which are also more prevalent. 7 wounds would have required 4 to go through instead of 3,  Assuming no special rule changes nothing to really get excited about, but its not like venoms were terrible so barring a points increase i guess its fine.  Bladevanes change is nice though so I'll take that, +1a is ok i guess, makes them more likely to do something when you send them in to prevent overwatch or tie up a unit.  So more or less as expected, of course special rules can always change so depends on data sheet,

[SpiritFox22]

What they really need to do is just up the transport capacity to 6 for Venoms, to equal what Harlequins have in their Starweavers. Starweavers would still be superior, with their 4++, but giving the Venoms the extra transport slot would make them so much more versatile and help out all the Drukhari sub-factions by allowing HQs to hop aboard along with MSU squads, rather than having to go on one solo or with various Court models.

Agreed Venoms should be able to transport 6 models like Starweavers.  But I think it stems more from the issues from our HQ's.

 

Literally the DE are the only faction with a Transport of 5/10 that doesn't have an option to increase the mobility of our HQ's so they can keep up with the troop options.  So you're either foot slogging your troops, which in general is a terrible idea for DE, or making a 9 strong squad of Kabal/Wyches and then shoving the Archon/Succubi in the Raider.

 

But that goes into wishlisting territory for what I'd like to see from the DE.  I want Archons/Succubi/Hammeys with bike/wing/jetpack options so they can just keep up instead of paying the venom tax for them.

[Medjugorje]

Why would we assume Venoms would get more than 16" movement? That seems pretty standard for their "class" of light hover transport/tank, such as the Starweaver/Wave Serpent/Falcon.

because a Land Speeder STorm have 18" too.

And LSS had 14 before and both vehicles have T5 W6 4+

[Snazzy]

 

What they really need to do is just up the transport capacity to 6 for Venoms, to equal what Harlequins have in their Starweavers. Starweavers would still be superior, with their 4++, but giving the Venoms the extra transport slot would make them so much more versatile and help out all the Drukhari sub-factions by allowing HQs to hop aboard along with MSU squads, rather than having to go on one solo or with various Court models.

Agreed Venoms should be able to transport 6 models like Starweavers.  But I think it stems more from the issues from our HQ's.

 

Literally the DE are the only faction with a Transport of 5/10 that doesn't have an option to increase the mobility of our HQ's so they can keep up with the troop options.  So you're either foot slogging your troops, which in general is a terrible idea for DE, or making a 9 strong squad of Kabal/Wyches and then shoving the Archon/Succubi in the Raider.

 

But that goes into wishlisting territory for what I'd like to see from the DE.  I want Archons/Succubi/Hammeys with bike/wing/jetpack options so they can just keep up instead of paying the venom tax for them.

 

 

It would help if the jump pack, jetbike and skyboard units weren't cults onto themselves.  Wings are not an equipment upgrade, they are a lifestyle.  So, it would be weird to see an Archon with wings, without a retcon of the Scourge fluff.  A Succubus or other Cult unit with a Skyboard isn't outside the realm, as Beastmasters are characters (no warlord traits!) with skyboards.  A Reaver Succubus, especially a Red Greif one is a scary prospect.

 

I just think it comes down to the reoccurring issue of a lack of vision for Drukhari.  We're still pirates.  We're still on Raiders and Venoms.  We still have no Lord of War units.  We still only have 1 non-HQ character.  We still have the lowest unit count of any army, and a good fraction of those units aren't even Drukhari.  We still have our HQs on foot.  I hope we get some new blood in this codex, but i doubt it.  

[Angel of Death]

 

 

What they really need to do is just up the transport capacity to 6 for Venoms, to equal what Harlequins have in their Starweavers. Starweavers would still be superior, with their 4++, but giving the Venoms the extra transport slot would make them so much more versatile and help out all the Drukhari sub-factions by allowing HQs to hop aboard along with MSU squads, rather than having to go on one solo or with various Court models.

Agreed Venoms should be able to transport 6 models like Starweavers.  But I think it stems more from the issues from our HQ's.

 

Literally the DE are the only faction with a Transport of 5/10 that doesn't have an option to increase the mobility of our HQ's so they can keep up with the troop options.  So you're either foot slogging your troops, which in general is a terrible idea for DE, or making a 9 strong squad of Kabal/Wyches and then shoving the Archon/Succubi in the Raider.

 

But that goes into wishlisting territory for what I'd like to see from the DE.  I want Archons/Succubi/Hammeys with bike/wing/jetpack options so they can just keep up instead of paying the venom tax for them.

 

 

It would help if the jump pack, jetbike and skyboard units weren't cults onto themselves.  Wings are not an equipment upgrade, they are a lifestyle.  So, it would be weird to see an Archon with wings, without a retcon of the Scourge fluff.  A Succubus or other Cult unit with a Skyboard isn't outside the realm, as Beastmasters are characters (no warlord traits!) with skyboards.  A Reaver Succubus, especially a Red Greif one is a scary prospect.

 

I just think it comes down to the reoccurring issue of a lack of vision for Drukhari.  We're still pirates.  We're still on Raiders and Venoms.  We still have no Lord of War units.  We still only have 1 non-HQ character.  We still have the lowest unit count of any army, and a good fraction of those units aren't even Drukhari.  We still have our HQs on foot.  I hope we get some new blood in this codex, but i doubt it.  

 

Baron Sathonyx was a HQ in 6:th ed or something. He was a HQ on a skyboard. Not much other than that tho....