More Attacks... For Kabalites? (And other codex reveals)

[Petitioner's City]

You lost a lot of special characters after their introduction or continuation in 5th - Baron Sathonyx & his board, Kheradrakh a mandrake lord, Duke Sliscus the exile naval pirate, Lady Malys and her fan, and of course Vect. Lost after 3rd were Decapitator and Kruellagh. 

 

This is all tangential; I think its always better to view a setting and cut through strict lines and instead expand the liftstyles & complexities of a given culture. Wings might be very common among various elites in the Commoragh, or an affectation for particular warriors, as Talon of Horus suggests?

[Dread]

The baron was always in my army back then, want him back. Lady Malys was too. How they would work now i dunno but i want them. Getting rid of cults kabals and the like would be great and just have army wide specials like most other armies, well all other armies.

 

Venoms should definitely be 6 occupant capacity. Thats always made me wonder.

[ThePenitentOne]

The baron was always in my army back then, want him back. Lady Malys was too. How they would work now i dunno but i want them. Getting rid of cults kabals and the like would be great and just have army wide specials like most other armies, well all other armies.

 

Venoms should definitely be 6 occupant capacity. Thats always made me wonder.

 

Getting rid of the restriction that Cults, Kabals and Covens must be fielded in separate detachments in order to get their obsessions is definitely something we know is coming, we just don't know how they are going to do it.

 

And fair warning, it has just as much potential to be a bad thing as a good thing. 

 

Because now, there's a chance that only Kabalite obsessions exist. That cults and covens get stuck with other people's traits. It could mean losing options. I didn't always like having to separate the three subtypes into their own detachments, but I did like the fact that the three subtypes felt different- that they had their own obsessions, warlord traits, bespoke strats. To me, rules define a model better than fluff; fluff is hyperbole- rules are actually reflected in play.

 

Case and point- all fluff talks about Marines being faster than other humans. They aren't- move stats are the same. Fluff lies. Rules don't.

 

And from that point of view, we have a lot to lose.

[Snazzy]

Something is needed.  The potential to run a Raiding Party with 6 custom traits, three warlord traits, non affiliated Beasts, and non-Drukari Court units is not only possible, but desirable.  It needs a rework towards simplicity.

 

...words i'd never thought i'd say about DE.

[ThePenitentOne]

Something is needed.  The potential to run a Raiding Party with 6 custom traits, three warlord traits, non affiliated Beasts, and non-Drukari Court units is not only possible, but desirable.  It needs a rework towards simplicity.

 

...words i'd never thought i'd say about DE.

 

See, I like that.

 

To me, that's what makes the army cool. Don't get me wrong- I think it should be possible to run it in a more streamlined way too, so that everyone can have their cake and eat it too. But from my point of view, the situation you describe above is the most perfect expression of the complexities of Commorragh's society. The army is the society in microcosm; a collection of fractious and ever shifting alliances held together through sheer force of will.

 

If anything, my biggest complaint about the Raiding Force rules is that they don't go far enough, because 1) they need to kick out game size detachment limits in order for the rules to work at any level other than Strike Force and 2) they need to scale the CP reward for higher multiples of 3 to accommodate infantry heavy lists at Strike Force level and all lists at Onslaught Level.

 

Like I said, I don't mind them introducing a simpler way- in fact I think they should. No one should be required to play a Raiding force. But those who want to should continue to have the option, because it added a layer of intrigue that is very much in character for this army. I am looking particularly forward to how the Crusade content in the dex interacts with the Raiding Force concept- assuming they keep it.

Edited March 2, 2021 by ThePenitentOne

[Snazzy]

 

Something is needed.  The potential to run a Raiding Party with 6 custom traits, three warlord traits, non affiliated Beasts, and non-Drukari Court units is not only possible, but desirable.  It needs a rework towards simplicity.

 

...words i'd never thought i'd say about DE.

 

See, I like that.

 

To me, that's what makes the army cool. Don't get me wrong- I think it should be possible to run it in a more streamlined way too, so that everyone can have their cake and eat it too. But from my point of view, the situation you describe above is the most perfect expression of the complexities of Commorragh's society. The army is the society in microcosm; a collection of fractious and ever shifting alliances held together through sheer force of will.

 

 

Sure.  I just don't think that it needs to be so cumbersome in terms of rules.  

[Plague _Lord]

I don't get why people are dissatisfied with the upgrade to 2 attacks and 4+ save on kabalite warriors. It makes their profile pretty unique and let's them mulch T3 infantry in close combat (as it should be).

[Karhedron]

The 4+ save is welcome. The extra attack on Kabalites feels odd because it mainly provides help against a class of targets that DE do not typically have trouble dealing with.

[Medjugorje]

The 4+ save is welcome. The extra attack on Kabalites feels odd because it mainly provides help against a class of targets that DE do not typically have trouble dealing with.

but thats not even correct. Do you played against Catachan with Straken? Against 40 Eldar Guardians? This attack is very nice

 

It should be said that many people feel so but thats strictly a bad assasment of situation

Edited March 3, 2021 by Medjugorje

[SpiritFox22]

 

The 4+ save is welcome. The extra attack on Kabalites feels odd because it mainly provides help against a class of targets that DE do not typically have trouble dealing with.

but thats not even correct. Do you played against Catachan with Straken? Against 40 Eldar Guardians? This attack is very nice

 

It should be said that many people feel so but thats strictly a bad assasment of situation

 

Honestly that's more your area's Meta though.  I won't speak for everyone, but where I'm at the Kabalites extra attack amounts to basically nothing.  The increase to a 4+ save is nice though since AP-1 is basically everywhere so at least I'm not praying for boxcars after every attack.

 

Sure it's nice that we can punch slightly above our weight against GEQ, but it's GEQ and punching through that is weighted entirely on quantity.  But against Marines the extra attack falls off hard, which for my area is the majority of players and also what most people compare the utility to.  The extra attacks basically means a single round of combat if we're LUCKY if get a single wound on Tactical marine without upgrades if we throw a 10man squad at a minimum 5 man squad of theirs, vs them taking 2.22 of ours out.  And that's with DE having a points advantage, if you add in shooting the DE are marginally better with getting the single wound through a majority of the time.  And that's with DE using more points to be less effective than their opponent (80pts vs 75pts) so forgive us for not going "OMG BEST TING EVAH" when they're straight up worse.

 

Granted the negativity is mostly due to how GW has treated DE for the last decade+.  The removal of Trueborn, bloodbrides, Malys, Silscus, Kheradruakh, Dracons, customizable HQ's, etc. took out a majority of the DE's flexibility.  Add in almost no utility for our few HQ's besides the Hammy sitting next to Wracks/Grots and the 99.999% likely to be dead Archon babysitting Triple Ravagers.  Then the issue that DE heavily require us to spam our transports, one of which lost half of its firepower and has the lowest troop capacity in the entire game, which if you want your HQ's to have any mobility you either pay for the Raider for a 9 man Wych/Wrack/Kabalite squad or have to buy a venom just for the HQ, where their Aura's don't help anything.

 

Honestly Dark Eldar in a nutshell have gone from a fast glass cannon army to feeling more like a marginally dysfunctional hoard army with no clear direction.

Edited March 4, 2021 by SpiritFox22

[Medjugorje]

Do you think the meta will stay the same? I think when Imperial Guard, Eldar etc get their own books they will have big impact in the meta.

 

 

Of course at the moment there is not a big difference... For this point it should be said that its not bad to have a good tool against specific things which are not played at the moment as long as we have good other tools for "killing" Dark Angels, Marines in general, Harlequins ...

 

btw... against harlekins the attacks are not bad because we dont need expensive AP or dmg against them... just chep mass attacks. And I think we have a big potential for being the Nightmare for Harlekins in the meta.

[jgascoine011]

 

 

The 4+ save is welcome. The extra attack on Kabalites feels odd because it mainly provides help against a class of targets that DE do not typically have trouble dealing with.

but thats not even correct. Do you played against Catachan with Straken? Against 40 Eldar Guardians? This attack is very nice

 

It should be said that many people feel so but thats strictly a bad assasment of situation

 

Honestly that's more your area's Meta though.  I won't speak for everyone, but where I'm at the Kabalites extra attack amounts to basically nothing.  The increase to a 4+ save is nice though since AP-1 is basically everywhere so at least I'm not praying for boxcars after every attack.

 

Sure it's nice that we can punch slightly above our weight against GEQ, but it's GEQ and punching through that is weighted entirely on quantity.  But against Marines the extra attack falls off hard, which for my area is the majority of players and also what most people compare the utility to.  The extra attacks basically means a single round of combat if we're LUCKY if get a single wound on Tactical marine without upgrades if we throw a 10man squad at a minimum 5 man squad of theirs, vs them taking 2.22 of ours out.  And that's with DE having a points advantage, if you add in shooting the DE are marginally better with getting the single wound through a majority of the time.  And that's with DE using more points to be less effective than their opponent (80pts vs 75pts) so forgive us for not going "OMG BEST TING EVAH" when they're straight up worse.

 

Granted the negativity is mostly due to how GW has treated DE for the last decade+.  The removal of Trueborn, bloodbrides, Malys, Silscus, Kheradruakh, Dracons, customizable HQ's, etc. took out a majority of the DE's flexibility.  Add in almost no utility for our few HQ's besides the Hammy sitting next to Wracks/Grots and the 99.999% likely to be dead Archon babysitting Triple Ravagers.  Then the issue that DE heavily require us to spam our transports, one of which lost half of its firepower and has the lowest troop capacity in the entire game, which if you want your HQ's to have any mobility you either pay for the Raider for a 9 man Wych/Wrack/Kabalite squad or have to buy a venom just for the HQ, where their Aura's don't help anything.

 

Honestly Dark Eldar in a nutshell have gone from a fast glass cannon army to feeling more like a marginally dysfunctional hoard army with no clear direction.

 

 

I dont really like comparing like for like in terms of points,

I dont think a 80 point DE warrior unit should be as good as a SM unit.

 

Instead you have some of the best transports in the game, you should be able to play the missions so much better than SM.

 

The really only thing i am not a fan of with DE is that it is a super expensive army in terms of $ to be good/competitve.

You really need massed venoms/raiders etc and it really starts to add up

[SpiritFox22]

Do you think the meta will stay the same? I think when Imperial Guard, Eldar etc get their own books they will have big impact in the meta.

 

 

Of course at the moment there is not a big difference... For this point it should be said that its not bad to have a good tool against specific things which are not played at the moment as long as we have good other tools for "killing" Dark Angels, Marines in general, Harlequins ...

 

btw... against harlekins the attacks are not bad because we dont need expensive AP or dmg against them... just chep mass attacks. And I think we have a big potential for being the Nightmare for Harlekins in the meta.

 

Honestly I don't see the Meta changing at all due to GW's love for Space Marines and repeatedly keeping them near the top in power rankings.  Then again hoping GW does something that helps the game instead of selling more SM models is like asking water to not be wet.  I honestly see Harlaquins getting slapped with the nerf bat mainly cause they're too consistently good against SM's.

 

 

 

 

The 4+ save is welcome. The extra attack on Kabalites feels odd because it mainly provides help against a class of targets that DE do not typically have trouble dealing with.

but thats not even correct. Do you played against Catachan with Straken? Against 40 Eldar Guardians? This attack is very nice

 

It should be said that many people feel so but thats strictly a bad assasment of situation

 

Honestly that's more your area's Meta though.  I won't speak for everyone, but where I'm at the Kabalites extra attack amounts to basically nothing.  The increase to a 4+ save is nice though since AP-1 is basically everywhere so at least I'm not praying for boxcars after every attack.

 

Sure it's nice that we can punch slightly above our weight against GEQ, but it's GEQ and punching through that is weighted entirely on quantity.  But against Marines the extra attack falls off hard, which for my area is the majority of players and also what most people compare the utility to.  The extra attacks basically means a single round of combat if we're LUCKY if get a single wound on Tactical marine without upgrades if we throw a 10man squad at a minimum 5 man squad of theirs, vs them taking 2.22 of ours out.  And that's with DE having a points advantage, if you add in shooting the DE are marginally better with getting the single wound through a majority of the time.  And that's with DE using more points to be less effective than their opponent (80pts vs 75pts) so forgive us for not going "OMG BEST TING EVAH" when they're straight up worse.

 

Granted the negativity is mostly due to how GW has treated DE for the last decade+.  The removal of Trueborn, bloodbrides, Malys, Silscus, Kheradruakh, Dracons, customizable HQ's, etc. took out a majority of the DE's flexibility.  Add in almost no utility for our few HQ's besides the Hammy sitting next to Wracks/Grots and the 99.999% likely to be dead Archon babysitting Triple Ravagers.  Then the issue that DE heavily require us to spam our transports, one of which lost half of its firepower and has the lowest troop capacity in the entire game, which if you want your HQ's to have any mobility you either pay for the Raider for a 9 man Wych/Wrack/Kabalite squad or have to buy a venom just for the HQ, where their Aura's don't help anything.

 

Honestly Dark Eldar in a nutshell have gone from a fast glass cannon army to feeling more like a marginally dysfunctional hoard army with no clear direction.

 

 

I dont really like comparing like for like in terms of points,

I dont think a 80 point DE warrior unit should be as good as a SM unit.

 

Instead you have some of the best transports in the game, you should be able to play the missions so much better than SM.

 

The really only thing i am not a fan of with DE is that it is a super expensive army in terms of $ to be good/competitve.

You really need massed venoms/raiders etc and it really starts to add up

 

Ok so then how do you compare them to their competition?  If it's not by Points/Powerlevel then how should you compare them?  The fact that for almost the exact same points DE bring double the attacks and double the shooting, but still cant trade evenly against the most common/popular army at all. 

 

As far as the "best transports" I'll disagree heavily on The Venom being anywhere close to that discussion.  The change to the Venoms weapons/stats means it lost half it's firepower and the fact that it has the lowest troop capacity of any army.  Compare it to the Harlaquins Starweaver and it becomes even more of a joke.  For 15pts more the Starweaver gets a better Invul, Automatically adding 6" to advancements, carries more troops, and has better guns.

 

The Raider is nice since it's a half decent Darklance/Dissie platform, but it's still made out of tissue paper on a good day.  Still should have a Transport capacity of 12 like the Wave serpent but that's never happening.

 

Regardless unless Dark Eldar get something akin to the Necron Reboot they're going to end up where they've been for the last 3 editions.  An army that's on the lower end of the power curve, not quite trash tier, but not really an army that does well even when Min/Maxing.

Edited March 4, 2021 by SpiritFox22

[Snazzy]

I don't get why people are dissatisfied with the upgrade to 2 attacks and 4+ save on kabalite warriors. It makes their profile pretty unique and let's them mulch T3 infantry in close combat (as it should be).

 

Some people want Kabalites to be WS 0 and A 0 with no save whatsoever if it meant they could take off 2 points per model.  Their value is to be shooters and easy vectors for Venoms.  There is a fair complaint about how more attacks and armor are only going to matter if their transport is destroyed.

 

 

Sure it's nice that we can punch slightly above our weight against GEQ, but it's GEQ and punching through that is weighted entirely on quantity.  But against Marines the extra attack falls off hard, which for my area is the majority of players and also what most people compare the utility to.  The extra attacks basically means a single round of combat if we're LUCKY if get a single wound on Tactical marine without upgrades if we throw a 10man squad at a minimum 5 man squad of theirs, vs them taking 2.22 of ours out.  And that's with DE having a points advantage, if you add in shooting the DE are marginally better with getting the single wound through a majority of the time.  And that's with DE using more points to be less effective than their opponent (80pts vs 75pts) so forgive us for not going "OMG BEST TING EVAH" when they're straight up worse.

 

The long view is that this change helps to bring Kabalites more in line with the rest of the army.  Power From Pain has never combined well with Kabalites, even in the old Pain Token days.  Just think about Black Heart.  They seldom make use of their Obsession, and are mostly there for Agents of Vect and Writ of the Living Muse.  Giving Kabalites 2A a piece allows them to make better use of turns 2 and 3 of Power From Pain (assuming it stays the same) and give a little more incentive to upgrade Sybarites.

 

I'd also argue that when combined with the 4+ save it gives Kabalites more options than before.  There are scenarios where you want to charge the enemy just to be in a safer spot than out in the open.  Or, you need to charge to get onto an objective.  Or, the target of your shooting is in light cover, and charging them is actually more effective than shooting.  Or, just having those few extra attacks means 1 more dead model.  The final verdict comes from how much more they will cost per model.  1 point for 4+ save and +1 attack?  Great.  2 points?  Nope.

 

 

Honestly Dark Eldar in a nutshell have gone from a fast glass cannon army to feeling more like a marginally dysfunctional hoard army with no clear direction.

 

*Laughs in Footdar*

 

 

 

Ok so then how do you compare them to their competition?  If it's not by Points/Powerlevel then how should you compare them?  The fact that for almost the exact same points DE bring double the attacks and double the shooting, but still cant trade evenly against the most common/popular army at all. 

 

 

They also bring double the bodies, which is pretty handy when determining control of objectives.  

[TrawlingCleaner]

In terms of making the Obsessions easier to use, it could be that they only apply the cult/coven/Cabal if they have the relevant HQ in the detachment.  IE: You take a Battalion with a mix of all 3, but only have an Archon and a Succubus, the Cult and the Cabal get their Obsessions but the Coven units don't, however it doesn't break the detachment. You could also make this a strategem, like: 1CP pick a unit without their Obsession, they get their Obsession for the rest of the game

 

At the moment if you mix cult/coven/cabal in one detachment, they all lose out. With the above you can freely mix. It makes Brigades actually acheiveable, Battalions pretty tasty too. If you wanted a way to maybe balance it a bit, you could have to take the Archon as the Warlord if you want to mesh (they could explain this as the Archon has to be in charge as they're financing the whole thing or whatever)

 

Raiding force is nice but it's a band-aid because the rules don't mesh together.

 

 

 

Regarding the attack and save changes, I think Snazzy hits the nail on the head for me. Kabalites are great GEQ killers with high output of shots but they never really benefitted from PfP futher than the 1st turn. With more attacks and a better save, you have the choice to now get them involved as they slot further into their niche. Previously you kept them out of combat at all costs due to low attacks and fear of being hit back, they're now not awful. They can kill guardsmen etc as they are want to do in their lore.

[ThePenitentOne]

Yeah, I'd be okay with a system like that. 

 

Personally, I always connect mechanics to the story- not sure if I've said it in this thread already, but "fluff" as written in both Codices and BL novels is usually hyperbole, and nowhere near how the units in question actually perform on the table. When I write GW fiction, I start with the rules. So you won't ever catch me saying a marine is faster than a guardsman, because they literally aren't, and all the fiction and fluff will not ever make it so.

 

And that's where Raiding Force runs into trouble. Because the multi-detachment version that we currently have IS super fluffy, even if it makes the army more difficult to play than others. People have mentioned numerous scenarios where an Archon might have authority over a Wych or a Wrack, and so I've certainly come to see it as Possible, fluff-wise, for the mixed detachment to function. But I still hold that small mono-patrols feel like they would be more likely. Yes, a Wych can be ordered by her Succubus to obey an Archon for the duration of a raid; there may even be cases where an Archon becomes a formal patron of a particular Wych, and at that point, her loyalty may belong more to the Archon than the Succubus who trained her. These cases definitely exist; they probably even occur fairly frequently, but they are not the norm. Or at least, the Raiding Force rule is the "Crunch" which provides the basis for the "Fluff" which suggests it isn't the norm. The Raiding Force rule is the equivalent of a marine's move stat being equal to a guard's move stat.

 

I like your solution, because it allows us to retain the "Crunch" behind the fluff, but facilitates accurate representation for the fringe cases which fall outside the norm. And in fact, your system would allow us to put the change in a warrior's status on the table. For the first five games of the Crusade, perhaps a particular Wrack only ever appears in the company of their Haemonculus. But during the fifth battle, perhaps that wrack is the last one standing in a squad that tarpits an important enemy, allowing the Archon and his bodyguard to claim an important objective, and after the fight, the Archon is so impressed that he purchases the Wrack from the Haemonculus. So you give the Haemonculus a Crusade relic to represent the purchase, and from that point on, this Wrack appears only in battles with the Archon.

 

I've always played 40k this way, all the way back to the Rogue Trader days. It's why I did cartwheels when GW gave us the Crusade system; finally there are actual rules to reflect the kinds of things I've been doing on the table for 32 years. Hopefully the rules we get allow me to continue to tell good stories. Winning has always been a secondary concern for me.

[jgascoine011]

 

Do you think the meta will stay the same? I think when Imperial Guard, Eldar etc get their own books they will have big impact in the meta.

 

 

Of course at the moment there is not a big difference... For this point it should be said that its not bad to have a good tool against specific things which are not played at the moment as long as we have good other tools for "killing" Dark Angels, Marines in general, Harlequins ...

 

btw... against harlekins the attacks are not bad because we dont need expensive AP or dmg against them... just chep mass attacks. And I think we have a big potential for being the Nightmare for Harlekins in the meta.

 

Honestly I don't see the Meta changing at all due to GW's love for Space Marines and repeatedly keeping them near the top in power rankings.  Then again hoping GW does something that helps the game instead of selling more SM models is like asking water to not be wet.  I honestly see Harlaquins getting slapped with the nerf bat mainly cause they're too consistently good against SM's.

 

 

 

 

The 4+ save is welcome. The extra attack on Kabalites feels odd because it mainly provides help against a class of targets that DE do not typically have trouble dealing with.

but thats not even correct. Do you played against Catachan with Straken? Against 40 Eldar Guardians? This attack is very nice

 

It should be said that many people feel so but thats strictly a bad assasment of situation

 

Honestly that's more your area's Meta though.  I won't speak for everyone, but where I'm at the Kabalites extra attack amounts to basically nothing.  The increase to a 4+ save is nice though since AP-1 is basically everywhere so at least I'm not praying for boxcars after every attack.

 

Sure it's nice that we can punch slightly above our weight against GEQ, but it's GEQ and punching through that is weighted entirely on quantity.  But against Marines the extra attack falls off hard, which for my area is the majority of players and also what most people compare the utility to.  The extra attacks basically means a single round of combat if we're LUCKY if get a single wound on Tactical marine without upgrades if we throw a 10man squad at a minimum 5 man squad of theirs, vs them taking 2.22 of ours out.  And that's with DE having a points advantage, if you add in shooting the DE are marginally better with getting the single wound through a majority of the time.  And that's with DE using more points to be less effective than their opponent (80pts vs 75pts) so forgive us for not going "OMG BEST TING EVAH" when they're straight up worse.

 

Granted the negativity is mostly due to how GW has treated DE for the last decade+.  The removal of Trueborn, bloodbrides, Malys, Silscus, Kheradruakh, Dracons, customizable HQ's, etc. took out a majority of the DE's flexibility.  Add in almost no utility for our few HQ's besides the Hammy sitting next to Wracks/Grots and the 99.999% likely to be dead Archon babysitting Triple Ravagers.  Then the issue that DE heavily require us to spam our transports, one of which lost half of its firepower and has the lowest troop capacity in the entire game, which if you want your HQ's to have any mobility you either pay for the Raider for a 9 man Wych/Wrack/Kabalite squad or have to buy a venom just for the HQ, where their Aura's don't help anything.

 

Honestly Dark Eldar in a nutshell have gone from a fast glass cannon army to feeling more like a marginally dysfunctional hoard army with no clear direction.

 

 

I dont really like comparing like for like in terms of points,

I dont think a 80 point DE warrior unit should be as good as a SM unit.

 

Instead you have some of the best transports in the game, you should be able to play the missions so much better than SM.

 

The really only thing i am not a fan of with DE is that it is a super expensive army in terms of $ to be good/competitve.

You really need massed venoms/raiders etc and it really starts to add up

 

Ok so then how do you compare them to their competition?  If it's not by Points/Powerlevel then how should you compare them?  The fact that for almost the exact same points DE bring double the attacks and double the shooting, but still cant trade evenly against the most common/popular army at all. 

 

As far as the "best transports" I'll disagree heavily on The Venom being anywhere close to that discussion.  The change to the Venoms weapons/stats means it lost half it's firepower and the fact that it has the lowest troop capacity of any army.  Compare it to the Harlaquins Starweaver and it becomes even more of a joke.  For 15pts more the Starweaver gets a better Invul, Automatically adding 6" to advancements, carries more troops, and has better guns.

 

The Raider is nice since it's a half decent Darklance/Dissie platform, but it's still made out of tissue paper on a good day.  Still should have a Transport capacity of 12 like the Wave serpent but that's never happening.

 

Regardless unless Dark Eldar get something akin to the Necron Reboot they're going to end up where they've been for the last 3 editions.  An army that's on the lower end of the power curve, not quite trash tier, but not really an army that does well even when Min/Maxing.

 

 

You have to look at the whole army in order to compare.

What strats do they have, what buffs can they get, what role do they perform etc

 

While the vemon lost half its fire power, it doubles its damage, and also go a bumb in AP which it what it really needed. While now its worse vs gaunts etc its better vs marines

 

I dont think DE were ever bad, the not being able to stack debuffs to hit hurt them a bit, it just wasnt fun to play against them with any army that was BS4+

[ThePenitentOne]

Well, there was the Sunday preview announcement- no surprise DE units, and confirmation that tomorrow's New Model Monday will be Belakor, and not DE.

 

The Book of Rust was previewed too, so it might release along with DE on March 20; this would be the mystery thing that they needed to add to the DE release since it was so sparse. Was hoping for a DE mystery kit, but looks like it's going to be the Book of Rust instead.

 

When they preview the BoR, they may choose to preview the DE parts.

 

I'm hoping that during the DE hype, which looks like it won't really start til next week, I'll be on the lookout for the announcement that "more is coming for DE" hook- they gave it to us with Sisters after previewing the Paragon. If we're very lucky, we'll get a similar announcement for DE... 

[TrawlingCleaner]

I think if we were to get a new kit, we'd have seen it at the same time as Lelith was shown off or at the least a month ago. I think general rule of thumb is to at least tease a model/s a few months before hand. This is speculation but I think we've already seen the points for the codex already with the 2021 points changes but there weren't any new units. I could be wrong of course

 

 

As you said, the Book of Rust is coming and weirdly getting a preview before the DE codex, I wonder why that is? Although there's Ad Mech and sisters rules in there too supposedly both of which have (speculated) upcoming codexes. It would be odd if they released the book with rules in before these armies got their books. I guess their release schedule is all over the place!

[jgascoine011]

I wouldn’t expect any new releases other than lelith.

One of the reasons they are pushing SM so hard is GW are wanting to get rid of 1st born and go Primaris and so need to push the kits out.

 

I am interested to see what the rules are. I’m hoping you can just pick the combat drugs you want without stupid restrictions. Also hope you can still take multiple patrols. The only thing I really don’t like with DE are the requirements to spam units

[Jings]

 

Personally, I always connect mechanics to the story- not sure if I've said it in this thread already, but "fluff" as written in both Codices and BL novels is usually hyperbole, and nowhere near how the units in question actually perform on the table. When I write GW fiction, I start with the rules. So you won't ever catch me saying a marine is faster than a guardsman, because they literally aren't, and all the fiction and fluff will not ever make it so.

 

 

The Space Marine Tactical Marine cocked his weapon more powerfully, but at the same speed of the Guardsmen he fought against. While his Strength 4 made pulling the charging handle a simple affair, he could not do this faster than the mortals around him due to the removal of the Initiative statistic at the dawn of 8th Edition. Instead, with their shared Movement of 6, his enhanced bio-engineered reflex system was rendered inert and they moved at the same speed. He aimed his bolter and shot the Tyranid Warrior two times - as it was within 12 inches, activating the Rapid Fire characteristic allowing him to shoot exactly two Bolts. Both shots connected due to his Ballistic Skill of 3+ meaning it was statistically likely to do so, but the foul xeno took only one wound - the Leiutenant was an inch too far to reroll the 1. The creature survived with two wounds left, and prepared to close the gap between the Marine and the Guardsmen he fought along.

 

While the Space Marine Tactical Marine had recently become twice as durable as the latest Codex granted him an additional Wound, the lower Leadership characteristic of the Guardsmen meant they were more easy to fail morale - for every Guardsman these creatures killed, the more likely additional Guardsmen would be lost when they took a break from the melee to allow their other soldiers time to move and shoot themselves. 

 

With just under 4 inches between the valiant soldiers of the Imperium and the cluster of Xenos monstrosities, only a roll of double ones could spare them the promise of mutilation. The Space Marine Tactical Marine gripped his combat knife, symbolically as it did not provide any combat bonuses, confident that the difficult terrain between them could deter the charging xenos horror. However, unbeknownst to the soon-to-be victims, this Tyranid Warrior had paid the points to be equipped with Adrenal Glands...

Edited March 8, 2021 by Jings

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

Some of Lelith's rules have been shown off and she's definitely still a blender, if not more so!

 

[Karhedron]

Nice combo. So against squads she can fight twice as long as she causes at least one casualty. Against big monsters or vehicles, she can Fall Back to let your AT guns take it down and still charge something else.

[Snazzy]

Seems like a side grade to me. Wierd that they cited her winning the special character xompetion when that result depended on her rerolls to hir and wound characters. Those rules are missing in the preview, but may exist alongside her missing invulvetable save. I will be a little sad if the Impaler option isn't available. Because that is slated to be a good weapon.

[GrinNfool]

She has 3 more attacks than a Wyche hekatrix with powersword.  She is pretty underwhelming, with the stat line probably belongs around 60-65 points to see much play.  Don't understand why they didn't give her 2 damage at least, to differentiate her a bit from standard wyches.  The fight twice being at the end of the phase means she gets punched first, but honestly even 14 attacks is kinda... eh.  Basically all she is good for is killing GEQ, just kinda sad honestly.  Kinda concerns me for the rest of the codex... but here is hoping she is the anomaly.