More Attacks... For Kabalites? (And other codex reveals)

[ThePenitentOne]

You'd have to bring a Brigade if you wanted Drazhar to be a part of a Raiding Force. But if you hate the troop tax in a brigade, and you just want Drazhar on the battlefield WITH a Raiding Force (rather than being a part of it), then you could just give him a squad of Kabalites so that he operates in his own detachment.

 

There's no rule preventing you from using Drazhar in a Raiding force (unless it's on his new datacard- I haven't seen it yet)- the only thing that makes it a challenge is that you need 4 HQ slots, so only brigade works. Given that 3 of your 6 mandatory troop choices are already filled by the required choices of Real Space Raiders along with the mandatory HQ's, a Brigade shouldn't be hard to fill out.

[jgascoine011]

Well Wyches got hit with a minor nerf bat to counter their ability to swing 4 times at minimum.  Seems you cant replace their Hekatrarii Blades until you reach 10 models with the unit and then you're limited to 1 of each, which is a minor nerf.  On the other hand I can understand why they did so.  Now the No Escape rule gives -1 to your opponents roll to fall back for Each Shardnet so with the old option a 10 strong squad could've forced a -3 on the roll off, now it's capped at -2 for a maxed out Wyche squad.

 

Kabalites get a special weapon (Blasters/Shredder) for every 5 models and Heavy for every 10 models, which if you take one it's 99.9% chance that its going to be a Darklance for the Trueborn squad.  The Squad leader now doesn't have to trade his splinter rifle to snag a power sword/agonizer or Phantasm Grenade Launcher, which I think I'm gonna be taking quite often especially for the Trueborn.

 

*Edit*

 

Though I definitely like the upgraded Medusa, even if they're swingy as hell.  Pistol D6 Str4 AP-2 D1 12" and Auto-hitting is hilarious even if it's not as likely to shoot 24 shots vs their old gaurenteed 16 shots at 9".  But for less serious games I'm definitely throwing a unit of 4 in a Venom and going to town.

 

 

So how do I shoehorn Drazhar into a detachment now? It looks like he can't be used for the Realspace Raiders.

Realspace Raiders from what I've theory crafted from the points seems to be nigh impossible to build on at the Brigade level at 2k points and get enough of each Kabal/Cult/Coven for it to be worth the effort.  So IMO just keep him running in the triple Patrol cause that's what I'm doing in a Wyche/incubi bomb since they're just flat out scary now.

 

Yea just noticed the change to wych weapons.

They did the same thing to death guard plague marines and honestly its the dumbest rule they have done in a long time and i hope they errata it so you can just pick.

It takes ages to go through each weapon and its just frustrating. The reason its done is because its what comes in the box and thats what GW wants to push, but its still a stupid rule. The fact is that in 99% of games nobody cares if your wyches are moddeled with razor flails, hydra gauntlets and impaler, and you just say they are all razor flails.

 

The realspace raiders seems like a lot of hoops to jump through for what looks like minor benefits and even if you take drazhar in his own patrol, he cant get his WLT as the archon has to be the warlord

[GrinNfool]

Unless you REALLY want to bring 3 choices of a specific FA or heavy unit, or really want to run kabal cult and coven in the same list and give everyone warlord traits, I don't see much of a benefit to running realspace raid, especially since it essentially kicks out drazhar which is one of our better choices now unless you tack on a patrol.  I'd rather start the game with 14 CP, and just run double kabal if I want 3 ravagers or something.  Overall though the army looks interesting... except coven... I don't think much of them from what I understand of their rules, and I think I understand them all.  Scourges are the other kinda sorta loser, all of their guns becoming heavy but blasters and shredder is, not great considering they don't get obsessions, lost their FNP and aren't particularly impressive stat wise in any department.  They are kind of a filler unit, competing with mandrakes, difference is mandrakes have always been there.

Edited March 21, 2021 by GrinNfool

[SpiritFox22]

Honestly the leaks of the new codex are pushing me more to running a heavy Cult list more than anything.  Triple Patrols with 2 Succubi and Drazhar for the HQ's, 2 squads of 10 Wyches with Shardnets and Razorflails and a PGL and Powersword, 1 Wych squad at 5 with only a PGL and Powersword. One squad of Incubi, 2 sets of 6x Reavers with Heat lances and Grav talons, 2 sets of 10 Hellions with PGLs, 1 squad of Mandrakes, 2 raiders, 4 venoms with chain snares.

 

One of the Succubi becoming a Master Variant and a the 5 strong squad Bloodbrides.  Main plan is all of them going Cursed Blade and everything taking +1 str drugs, except Hellions who get the +2" movement and the Reavers who get +1BS.  So the entire army minus mandrakes has Str 5 AP-1 minimum.

 

Is it something that will warp the meta to counter?  Not in the slightest, but it'll be a blast to watch my friends melt under the buckets of dice I'll be throwing.

[Angel of Death]

Honestly the leaks of the new codex are pushing me more to running a heavy Cult list more than anything.  Triple Patrols with 2 Succubi and Drazhar for the HQ's, 2 squads of 10 Wyches with Shardnets and Razorflails and a PGL and Powersword, 1 Wych squad at 5 with only a PGL and Powersword. One squad of Incubi, 2 sets of 6x Reavers with Heat lances and Grav talons, 2 sets of 10 Hellions with PGLs, 1 squad of Mandrakes, 2 raiders, 4 venoms with chain snares.

 

One of the Succubi becoming a Master Variant and a the 5 strong squad Bloodbrides.  Main plan is all of them going Cursed Blade and everything taking +1 str drugs, except Hellions who get the +2" movement and the Reavers who get +1BS.  So the entire army minus mandrakes has Str 5 AP-1 minimum.

 

Is it something that will warp the meta to counter?  Not in the slightest, but it'll be a blast to watch my friends melt under the buckets of dice I'll be throwing.

Can wyches take more power weapons and such again?

They do look kinda interesting, actually. I havent paid that much attention to them, but if they get like +1 to hit, they would have very strong WS and maybe could do some damage to the enemies. I havent played them that much earlier, because they tended to not do that much damage. But im sure they can be pretty fun. I knew a guy who played chaos, with berzerkers, and he was actually afraid of wyches because of their 4+ dodge and lots of whips and such. However, kabs tend to do the same amount of damage as wyches, except inside venoms and raiders, so I think thats why cults are less played than others. But I def think they deserve a the buff to their stats.

[SpiritFox22]

 

Honestly the leaks of the new codex are pushing me more to running a heavy Cult list more than anything.  Triple Patrols with 2 Succubi and Drazhar for the HQ's, 2 squads of 10 Wyches with Shardnets and Razorflails and a PGL and Powersword, 1 Wych squad at 5 with only a PGL and Powersword. One squad of Incubi, 2 sets of 6x Reavers with Heat lances and Grav talons, 2 sets of 10 Hellions with PGLs, 1 squad of Mandrakes, 2 raiders, 4 venoms with chain snares.

 

One of the Succubi becoming a Master Variant and a the 5 strong squad Bloodbrides.  Main plan is all of them going Cursed Blade and everything taking +1 str drugs, except Hellions who get the +2" movement and the Reavers who get +1BS.  So the entire army minus mandrakes has Str 5 AP-1 minimum.

 

Is it something that will warp the meta to counter?  Not in the slightest, but it'll be a blast to watch my friends melt under the buckets of dice I'll be throwing.

Can wyches take more power weapons and such again?

They do look kinda interesting, actually. I haven't paid that much attention to them, but if they get like +1 to hit, they would have very strong WS and maybe could do some damage to the enemies. I haven't played them that much earlier, because they tended to not do that much damage. But I'm sure they can be pretty fun. I knew a guy who played chaos, with berzerkers, and he was actually afraid of wyches because of their 4+ dodge and lots of whips and such. However, kabs tend to do the same amount of damage as wyches, except inside venoms and raiders, so I think thats why cults are less played than others. But I def think they deserve a the buff to their stats.

 

Well the Sgt can take the Power sword/Agoniser/Blastpistol/Phantasm Grenade Launcher, the rest are limited to 1 of each wyche weapon per squad of 10, ie 10 strong can have a razorflail, gauntlets, and shardnet if you take 10 but cant have any if there's only 9 of them.  But with base 3/4 attacks and all their weapons giving +1 attacks, minus the razor flail which merely doubles their base attacks (6 attacks), is scary for a 10ppm unit.

 

Still with Cursed Blade + Str drugs the 5 man squad throws 16 Str 5 Ap-1 D1 and the Sgt with a powersword throws 4 Str 6 Ap-3 D1 attacks.  Prior to Turn 3 all of them are hitting on 3's and wounding T4 marines on 3's and any 6's to wound putting the attacks to AP-2/4 respectively, and that's on a squad that costs 55pts.  If you spare the points for a Master Succubi and make Bloodbrides now they're swinging on 2+ to hit and the 6's to wound make their attacks AP-4/6 for a whopping extra +2ppm  +15 for the Succubi.  Wyches T2+ getting Perma Move/advance/Charge from PFP means they're very likely to get into CQC with little issues.

 

Along with the fixed Drug table allowing you to give the same drug to as many units as you damn well please.  Wyches just became FAR more consistent of a unit than before.

 

The Phanstasm Grenade launcher is just worth slapping on anything you have now too.  Assualt D3 shots and for every hit you make on an enemy unit roll 2d6, if greater than their leadership deal a MW.  What was once a dicey strat is now it's base ability and works pretty often if you combo it on a vehicle with Grizzly trophies.

 

Which Grizzly Trophies is another huge boon to our Raiders/Venoms since they have a 3" bubble of -2 leadership to every enemy unit measuring from their hulls that from what I read stacks with itself. 

 

Chain snares are hilarious since it's a flat +3 attacks on our gunboats actually can hit worth a damn, well the raider/venom can but hey now it's actually a decent option to slam them into CQC to stop over-watch.

 

*Edit*

 

That's not to say Kabalites are the worst option for troops now.  They actually kept their weapon options and Splinter rifles are really decent for anti-anything not a Vehicle.  Add in Raiders splinter racks now give Rapid fire for them at full range means they're better skirmisher units than before.  The extra attack + blade artists means they can pull CQC duty in a pinch to knock a nearly dead squad off an objective instead of just flailing after shooting doesn't work.  Their Trueborn option is amazing since they're BS2+ and ignore all penalties to shooting so Dark lance's are worth taking for them.

 

Wracks imo became better in general even with not getting the extra attack, a native 6++ 5+++ save is imo better than a 5++ 6+++ they had before.  Add in Liquifiers now are Assualt D6 Str 4 AP-2 D1 Flamers at 12" makes them perfect to spam in Venoms with Dark Technomancers since they straight up ignore the downside to it's rule of "1's to hit inflict a MW" and the fact that Grots and Talos can all take them means we are definitely seeing more of those spammed.

 

...To go along with the Talos the Ichor injector is scary on them.  On a hit with one you deal D3 MW's to your opponent, on a squad of 3 that's 3D3 MW's after they just flambeed your opponent with Liquifiers and before they start punching.  Also BTW the only things that cost to upgrade on them are Talos Gauntlets and the Twin Liquifier guns.

 

But this codex buffed Wyche Cults the most imo while bringing Covens down a tad and leaving Kabals mostly the same.  Now we've got 3 viable options to run our armies that can mix a bit thanks to the Triple patrols costing 0cp giving us 14CP to play with from the start over everyone else having 12.  Real-space Raiders isn't a bad option either, but you're not fitting Drazhar in without a brigade and that makes the minimum reqs very hard to run in a 2k list.

 

The Heat lance moving to heavy isn't even the worst trade since it's now an 18" Str 8 AP-4 Dd6+2 over it's old 18" Str 6 Ap-5 Dd6 profile, sure it hurt Scourge list a bit but you're still hitting on 4's and lets be honest I'd be taking a Darklance for dedicated AT with D3+3 damage.  It however besides them it literally doesn't affect Talos/Reavers, ie the two other units that have access to them.

 

Hellions are now point for point better than Grotesques too thanks to them getting +1 Toughness, Wounds, Attacks, and AP on their melee weapons.  For 17ppm in a Cursed blade they're native Str5 Ap-1 D2 with 3/4 attacks base, are infantry for stratagems/terrain purposes, have drug access so either Str5, 4/5 attacks on the charge, or make them T5.

Edited March 21, 2021 by SpiritFox22

[Angel of Death]

 

 

Honestly the leaks of the new codex are pushing me more to running a heavy Cult list more than anything.  Triple Patrols with 2 Succubi and Drazhar for the HQ's, 2 squads of 10 Wyches with Shardnets and Razorflails and a PGL and Powersword, 1 Wych squad at 5 with only a PGL and Powersword. One squad of Incubi, 2 sets of 6x Reavers with Heat lances and Grav talons, 2 sets of 10 Hellions with PGLs, 1 squad of Mandrakes, 2 raiders, 4 venoms with chain snares.

 

One of the Succubi becoming a Master Variant and a the 5 strong squad Bloodbrides.  Main plan is all of them going Cursed Blade and everything taking +1 str drugs, except Hellions who get the +2" movement and the Reavers who get +1BS.  So the entire army minus mandrakes has Str 5 AP-1 minimum.

 

Is it something that will warp the meta to counter?  Not in the slightest, but it'll be a blast to watch my friends melt under the buckets of dice I'll be throwing.

Can wyches take more power weapons and such again?

They do look kinda interesting, actually. I haven't paid that much attention to them, but if they get like +1 to hit, they would have very strong WS and maybe could do some damage to the enemies. I haven't played them that much earlier, because they tended to not do that much damage. But I'm sure they can be pretty fun. I knew a guy who played chaos, with berzerkers, and he was actually afraid of wyches because of their 4+ dodge and lots of whips and such. However, kabs tend to do the same amount of damage as wyches, except inside venoms and raiders, so I think thats why cults are less played than others. But I def think they deserve a the buff to their stats.

 

Well the Sgt can take the Power sword/Agoniser/Blastpistol/Phantasm Grenade Launcher, the rest are limited to 1 of each wyche weapon per squad of 10, ie 10 strong can have a razorflail, gauntlets, and shardnet if you take 10 but cant have any if there's only 9 of them.  But with base 3/4 attacks and all their weapons giving +1 attacks, minus the razor flail which merely doubles their base attacks (6 attacks), is scary for a 10ppm unit.

 

Still with Cursed Blade + Str drugs the 5 man squad throws 16 Str 5 Ap-1 D1 and the Sgt with a powersword throws 4 Str 6 Ap-3 D1 attacks.  Prior to Turn 3 all of them are hitting on 3's and wounding T4 marines on 3's and any 6's to wound putting the attacks to AP-2/4 respectively, and that's on a squad that costs 55pts.  If you spare the points for a Master Succubi and make Bloodbrides now they're swinging on 2+ to hit and the 6's to wound make their attacks AP-4/6 for a whopping extra +2ppm  +15 for the Succubi.  Wyches T2+ getting Perma Move/advance/Charge from PFP means they're very likely to get into CQC with little issues.

 

Along with the fixed Drug table allowing you to give the same drug to as many units as you damn well please.  Wyches just became FAR more consistent of a unit than before.

 

The Phanstasm Grenade launcher is just worth slapping on anything you have now too.  Assualt D3 shots and for every hit you make on an enemy unit roll 2d6, if greater than their leadership deal a MW.  What was once a dicey strat is now it's base ability and works pretty often if you combo it on a vehicle with Grizzly trophies.

 

Which Grizzly Trophies is another huge boon to our Raiders/Venoms since they have a 3" bubble of -2 leadership to every enemy unit measuring from their hulls that from what I read stacks with itself. 

 

Chain snares are hilarious since it's a flat +3 attacks on our gunboats actually can hit worth a damn, well the raider/venom can but hey now it's actually a decent option to slam them into CQC to stop over-watch.

 

*Edit*

 

That's not to say Kabalites are the worst option for troops now.  They actually kept their weapon options and Splinter rifles are really decent for anti-anything not a Vehicle.  Add in Raiders splinter racks now give Rapid fire for them at full range means they're better skirmisher units than before.  The extra attack + blade artists means they can pull CQC duty in a pinch to knock a nearly dead squad off an objective instead of just flailing after shooting doesn't work.  Their Trueborn option is amazing since they're BS2+ and ignore all penalties to shooting so Dark lance's are worth taking for them.

 

Wracks imo became better in general even with not getting the extra attack, a native 6++ 5+++ save is imo better than a 5++ 6+++ they had before.  Add in Liquifiers now are Assualt D6 Str 4 AP-2 D1 Flamers at 12" makes them perfect to spam in Venoms with Dark Technomancers since they straight up ignore the downside to it's rule of "1's to hit inflict a MW" and the fact that Grots and Talos can all take them means we are definitely seeing more of those spammed.

 

...To go along with the Talos the Ichor injector is scary on them.  On a hit with one you deal D3 MW's to your opponent, on a squad of 3 that's 3D3 MW's after they just flambeed your opponent with Liquifiers and before they start punching.  Also BTW the only things that cost to upgrade on them are Talos Gauntlets and the Twin Liquifier guns.

 

But this codex buffed Wyche Cults the most imo while bringing Covens down a tad and leaving Kabals mostly the same.  Now we've got 3 viable options to run our armies that can mix a bit thanks to the Triple patrols costing 0cp giving us 14CP to play with from the start over everyone else having 12.  Real-space Raiders isn't a bad option either, but you're not fitting Drazhar in without a brigade and that makes the minimum reqs very hard to run in a 2k list.

 

The Heat lance moving to heavy isn't even the worst trade since it's now an 18" Str 8 AP-4 Dd6+2 over it's old 18" Str 6 Ap-5 Dd6 profile, sure it hurt Scourge list a bit but you're still hitting on 4's and lets be honest I'd be taking a Darklance for dedicated AT with D3+3 damage.  It however besides them it literally doesn't affect Talos/Reavers, ie the two other units that have access to them.

 

Hellions are now point for point better than Grotesques too thanks to them getting +1 Toughness, Wounds, Attacks, and AP on their melee weapons.  For 17ppm in a Cursed blade they're native Str5 Ap-1 D2 with 3/4 attacks base, are infantry for stratagems/terrain purposes, have drug access so either Str5, 4/5 attacks on the charge, or make them T5.

 

Thank you, my friend, I am honored by your long and thorough reply.

 

Wyches becoming more of a respectable unit, after having been used as cannon fodder and combat-locking units, is actually quite interesting. I wonder if wyches are actually going to be more of a steady choice among us dark eldar players now. There were only 3 drukhari players the last time i checked at my club, and that was 2 years agio. Back then, i was running a standard kabalite army, the other drukhari player aswell, and the third one played covens. Between me and the other drukhari player, I managed to beat him, and he took an almost submissive stance to me (im also a guy no homo, hehe) and like. Take my list and just tear it apart. And I sort of mentored him on how to use your army effectively. But at this point, drukhari wasnt very big on wyches, that was what I was going to say.

 

Without their now upgraded WS(2+) and their new drugs table, they wouldnt be as strong. But I may consider if they are actually becoming a more viable choice. Not as a unit that I would play, but more to discuss on the forum about.

 

Kabalites WS(2+) is actually a HUGE  deal. It is so good, that you cant even imagine, for kab players. I remember fielding a light infantry army with kabalites and some trueborn. I had like 5-6 venoms with kabalite crew, and these 6 or so venoms dished out around 160 dices when they fired. This is what a kabalite army can do in roughly ~1000-1500pts. Now, imagine if we increase this from hitting on 3+ to 2+. That would mean that out of these 160 dices, it would be almost 140 hits == 70 wounds.

 

And each of these venoms is like less than 100pts a piece.

 

This is why we can have INSANE dps when we are at our best. The only question is, can wyches actually up this challenge, now with kabs hitting on 2+ ? Can wyches actually perform better than this? I leave that to you to decide, and see if you can answer how ;)

 

Wracks become even more nasty if you run them as prophets of flesh. They get 4+ FnP, increased by 1. And they can mitigate 1 wound each round.

 

Talos pain engines are rly fun and hurts the enemy alot. They get like 6 attacks, WS(3+), STR7, so it wounds everything on 2+ and with chain flails it gets rerolls for everything. They can also get instant death on every attack, with poisoned(2+), good if you want to put carnifexes to sleep or give heroes a swift death.

[SpiritFox22]

 

 

 

Honestly the leaks of the new codex are pushing me more to running a heavy Cult list more than anything.  Triple Patrols with 2 Succubi and Drazhar for the HQ's, 2 squads of 10 Wyches with Shardnets and Razorflails and a PGL and Powersword, 1 Wych squad at 5 with only a PGL and Powersword. One squad of Incubi, 2 sets of 6x Reavers with Heat lances and Grav talons, 2 sets of 10 Hellions with PGLs, 1 squad of Mandrakes, 2 raiders, 4 venoms with chain snares.

 

One of the Succubi becoming a Master Variant and a the 5 strong squad Bloodbrides.  Main plan is all of them going Cursed Blade and everything taking +1 str drugs, except Hellions who get the +2" movement and the Reavers who get +1BS.  So the entire army minus mandrakes has Str 5 AP-1 minimum.

 

Is it something that will warp the meta to counter?  Not in the slightest, but it'll be a blast to watch my friends melt under the buckets of dice I'll be throwing.

Can wyches take more power weapons and such again?

They do look kinda interesting, actually. I haven't paid that much attention to them, but if they get like +1 to hit, they would have very strong WS and maybe could do some damage to the enemies. I haven't played them that much earlier, because they tended to not do that much damage. But I'm sure they can be pretty fun. I knew a guy who played chaos, with berzerkers, and he was actually afraid of wyches because of their 4+ dodge and lots of whips and such. However, kabs tend to do the same amount of damage as wyches, except inside venoms and raiders, so I think thats why cults are less played than others. But I def think they deserve a the buff to their stats.

 

Well the Sgt can take the Power sword/Agoniser/Blastpistol/Phantasm Grenade Launcher, the rest are limited to 1 of each wyche weapon per squad of 10, ie 10 strong can have a razorflail, gauntlets, and shardnet if you take 10 but cant have any if there's only 9 of them.  But with base 3/4 attacks and all their weapons giving +1 attacks, minus the razor flail which merely doubles their base attacks (6 attacks), is scary for a 10ppm unit.

 

Still with Cursed Blade + Str drugs the 5 man squad throws 16 Str 5 Ap-1 D1 and the Sgt with a powersword throws 4 Str 6 Ap-3 D1 attacks.  Prior to Turn 3 all of them are hitting on 3's and wounding T4 marines on 3's and any 6's to wound putting the attacks to AP-2/4 respectively, and that's on a squad that costs 55pts.  If you spare the points for a Master Succubi and make Bloodbrides now they're swinging on 2+ to hit and the 6's to wound make their attacks AP-4/6 for a whopping extra +2ppm  +15 for the Succubi.  Wyches T2+ getting Perma Move/advance/Charge from PFP means they're very likely to get into CQC with little issues.

 

Along with the fixed Drug table allowing you to give the same drug to as many units as you damn well please.  Wyches just became FAR more consistent of a unit than before.

 

The Phanstasm Grenade launcher is just worth slapping on anything you have now too.  Assualt D3 shots and for every hit you make on an enemy unit roll 2d6, if greater than their leadership deal a MW.  What was once a dicey strat is now it's base ability and works pretty often if you combo it on a vehicle with Grizzly trophies.

 

Which Grizzly Trophies is another huge boon to our Raiders/Venoms since they have a 3" bubble of -2 leadership to every enemy unit measuring from their hulls that from what I read stacks with itself. 

 

Chain snares are hilarious since it's a flat +3 attacks on our gunboats actually can hit worth a damn, well the raider/venom can but hey now it's actually a decent option to slam them into CQC to stop over-watch.

 

*Edit*

 

That's not to say Kabalites are the worst option for troops now.  They actually kept their weapon options and Splinter rifles are really decent for anti-anything not a Vehicle.  Add in Raiders splinter racks now give Rapid fire for them at full range means they're better skirmisher units than before.  The extra attack + blade artists means they can pull CQC duty in a pinch to knock a nearly dead squad off an objective instead of just flailing after shooting doesn't work.  Their Trueborn option is amazing since they're BS2+ and ignore all penalties to shooting so Dark lance's are worth taking for them.

 

Wracks imo became better in general even with not getting the extra attack, a native 6++ 5+++ save is imo better than a 5++ 6+++ they had before.  Add in Liquifiers now are Assualt D6 Str 4 AP-2 D1 Flamers at 12" makes them perfect to spam in Venoms with Dark Technomancers since they straight up ignore the downside to it's rule of "1's to hit inflict a MW" and the fact that Grots and Talos can all take them means we are definitely seeing more of those spammed.

 

...To go along with the Talos the Ichor injector is scary on them.  On a hit with one you deal D3 MW's to your opponent, on a squad of 3 that's 3D3 MW's after they just flambeed your opponent with Liquifiers and before they start punching.  Also BTW the only things that cost to upgrade on them are Talos Gauntlets and the Twin Liquifier guns.

 

But this codex buffed Wyche Cults the most imo while bringing Covens down a tad and leaving Kabals mostly the same.  Now we've got 3 viable options to run our armies that can mix a bit thanks to the Triple patrols costing 0cp giving us 14CP to play with from the start over everyone else having 12.  Real-space Raiders isn't a bad option either, but you're not fitting Drazhar in without a brigade and that makes the minimum reqs very hard to run in a 2k list.

 

The Heat lance moving to heavy isn't even the worst trade since it's now an 18" Str 8 AP-4 Dd6+2 over it's old 18" Str 6 Ap-5 Dd6 profile, sure it hurt Scourge list a bit but you're still hitting on 4's and lets be honest I'd be taking a Darklance for dedicated AT with D3+3 damage.  It however besides them it literally doesn't affect Talos/Reavers, ie the two other units that have access to them.

 

Hellions are now point for point better than Grotesques too thanks to them getting +1 Toughness, Wounds, Attacks, and AP on their melee weapons.  For 17ppm in a Cursed blade they're native Str5 Ap-1 D2 with 3/4 attacks base, are infantry for stratagems/terrain purposes, have drug access so either Str5, 4/5 attacks on the charge, or make them T5.

 

Thank you, my friend, I am honored by your long and thorough reply.

 

Wyches becoming more of a respectable unit, after having been used as cannon fodder and combat-locking units, is actually quite interesting. I wonder if wyches are actually going to be more of a steady choice among us dark eldar players now. There were only 3 drukhari players the last time i checked at my club, and that was 2 years agio. Back then, i was running a standard kabalite army, the other drukhari player aswell, and the third one played covens. Between me and the other drukhari player, I managed to beat him, and he took an almost submissive stance to me (im also a guy no homo, hehe) and like. Take my list and just tear it apart. And I sort of mentored him on how to use your army effectively. But at this point, drukhari wasnt very big on wyches, that was what I was going to say.

 

Without their now upgraded WS(2+) and their new drugs table, they wouldnt be as strong. But I may consider if they are actually becoming a more viable choice. Not as a unit that I would play, but more to discuss on the forum about.

 

Kabalites WS(2+) is actually a HUGE  deal. It is so good, that you cant even imagine, for kab players. I remember fielding a light infantry army with kabalites and some trueborn. I had like 5-6 venoms with kabalite crew, and these 6 or so venoms dished out around 160 dices when they fired. This is what a kabalite army can do in roughly ~1000-1500pts. Now, imagine if we increase this from hitting on 3+ to 2+. That would mean that out of these 160 dices, it would be almost 140 hits == 70 wounds.

 

And each of these venoms is like less than 100pts a piece.

 

This is why we can have INSANE dps when we are at our best. The only question is, can wyches actually up this challenge, now with kabs hitting on 2+ ? Can wyches actually perform better than this? I leave that to you to decide, and see if you can answer how

 

Wracks become even more nasty if you run them as prophets of flesh. They get 4+ FnP, increased by 1. And they can mitigate 1 wound each round.

 

Talos pain engines are rly fun and hurts the enemy alot. They get like 6 attacks, WS(3+), STR7, so it wounds everything on 2+ and with chain flails it gets rerolls for everything. They can also get instant death on every attack, with poisoned(2+), good if you want to put carnifexes to sleep or give heroes a swift death.

 

Well there is a limitation on Trueborn/BloodBrides/Haemocytes as you can only upgrade a Single unit of Kabalite/Wyches/Wracks for each Master Archon/Succubi/Haemonculus you field.  They are also Capped at 10 strong each.  So for the Archon/Succubi you're paying an extra 15 to upgrade them and an additional 2ppm for the upgraded troops, Hammys cost 20 + 2ppm.

 

Talos got a bit of a Nerf regarding their Chain flails losing the re-roll to wounds but still doubling their base attacks for them.  Macroscalpels now require them to be paired to getting +1 attacks. 

 

Prophets of Flesh no longer affects the FNP roll either.  Now they ]}*See GrinNfools correction below cause I had a brainfart.*{[

 

Basically Kabals stayed roughly the same, Covens got smacked a tad with the nerf bat, mainly Prophets of Flesh losing the upgraded FNP and Dark Technomancers counting as 2 obsessions and punishing 1's to hit with a MW, D3 if the unit is a Vehicle/Monster.

Edited March 21, 2021 by SpiritFox22

[GrinNfool]

Oof some straight up wrong things being talked about on here.  Just to correct a few things....

Talos = 5 attacks 6 if you bring 2 scalpels, and chain flails do not reroll wounds, and no clue where you are getting they can achieve poison 2+ on those or chain flails either

Prophets of flesh = do nothing for the invlun, the only thing that improves the invuln is haemoxytes, its part of why coven seems meh to me atm,  Prophets instead give you pseudo transhuman that you lose once you get hit by s8 or higher.... so in practice its can't be wounded on 3s until s8, not very impressive honestly, and their multiwound non vehicle models regenerate a wound at the start of your command phase.

Honestly I think the custom covens are better than the normal... unless you are going for mortal wound shenanigans with phantasm grenade launcher, in which case creed is the best.

 

Opinion wise, of the upgraded troops only the trueborn to me strike me as a must take.  Bloodbrides are nice, but don't hit me with the gotta have it feeling.  Haemoxytes only look reasonable to me turn 4 and on, so if you have a plan to keep them safe until late game then they are ok, otherwise feels like a pass.

 

Biggest winners are by far succubi, heat lances, trueborn, Incubi, Drazhar, and Hellions, honorable mention to reavers medusae, liquifiers, and dark lances.

 

Losers category consists of Scourges, and for the most part, coven, some wins here and some serious shenanigans you can do depending on coven, but unit wise even things that gained something lost out in a more important way.

[SpiritFox22]

Prophets of flesh = do nothing for the invlun, the only thing that improves the invuln is haemoxytes, its part of why coven seems meh to me atm,  Prophets instead give you pseudo transhuman that you lose once you get hit by s8 or higher.... so in practice its can't be wounded on 3s until s8, not very impressive honestly, and their multiwound non vehicle models regenerate a wound at the start of your command phase.

Honestly I think the custom covens are better than the normal... unless you are going for mortal wound shenanigans with phantasm grenade launcher, in which case creed is the best.

Yeah my bad, mixed that bit up.

 

Also Creed +1 min Cult patrol with 10+ Hellions to Eviscerating Flyby their Warlord so you can further debuff the entire army with the other strat.

[Snazzy]

 

Biggest winners are by far succubi, heat lances, trueborn, Incubi, Drazhar, and Hellions, honorable mention to reavers medusae, liquifiers, and dark lances.

 

Losers category consists of Scourges, and for the most part, coven, some wins here and some serious shenanigans you can do depending on coven, but unit wise even things that gained something lost out in a more important way.

 

Heat Lances strike me as a weapon without a purpose these days.  Anything that can take them is better off with Blasters to preserve movement options.  +2 damage is great.  But, at the cost of Reavers and Talos not being able to Advance?  Scourges getting the -1 to-hit from moving? 

 

I just bought two boxes of Scourges prior to this drop anticipating that they'd be able to weather the changes.  I guess i'd run them as more Blasters?  No great options.

 

 

The change to Wych Weapons is a giant middle finger, as far as i'm concerned.  It slows down the game and none of them are so potent that we're talking the difference between a Power Sword and Power Fist.  I also have squads modeled and painted to be in groups of 3 that i now need to either break up or repaint.  2 steps forward, one back.  Let's talk bloat, too.  In a squad of 10 you can legally use the following in the same turn:

 

Splinter Pistols

Plasma Grenade

Blast Pistol or PGL

Basic Hekatarii Blades

Hydra Gauntlets

Razorflails

Shardnet and Impaler

Power Sword or Agonizer

[WarriorFish]

Great to read all these insights, I'm liking what I hear. Except Scourges as I love the models and always planned to use them a lot, but such is life :P DE will be jostling for first out the door when I can get some games in, assuming I can get the time to get more painting done...

[SpiritFox22]

Great to read all these insights, I'm liking what I hear. Except Scourges as I love the models and always planned to use them a lot, but such is life DE will be jostling for first out the door when I can get some games in, assuming I can get the time to get more painting done...

Eh Scourges yeah are a bit odd now, but they're still a good option if you drop them with shredders or blasters.  The Heat lance change really only makes them more in line to how I've ran then before with quad Dark lances.  Deepstrike, nuke vehicle, FnF, watch as they draw an exorbitant amount of fire to stop them from deleting another one.

 

Hell they have a native 5++ invulnerable save anyway so they're still decent for the cheap FA option, hell lets not even lie their main purpose was to bring more AT anyway.

Edited March 21, 2021 by SpiritFox22

[Snazzy]

Too bad Shredders took a huge hit.  I'd take the reroll to wound over range extension any time.  They are bad enough now that i don't see a point to them.  The whole army got better at dealing with hordes.

[SpiritFox22]

Yeah we got a massive buff on anti hoard unit, but imo it's more of an accidental buff on them when GW gave DE the buff to punch out Marines better.

[GrinNfool]

Eh I think heat lances are fine borderline good on reavers, you have to wait til turn 2 to advance and charge with them anyways now since red grief isn't a thing, which used to be the go to for them.  18" movement is generally good enough, to reach most things on the now much smaller table with how people tend to cluster towards the middle due to primaries, and its not like you lose the ability to advance and charge if you need it, reavers already coudln't shoot their rifles if you advanced, sure I could have a 1-3 blasters instead of 1-3 heat lances, but hitting on 4s with blasters before a charge has never really been a wow factor of reavers to me in the first place.  Now a minimum 3 damage though with up to 8 from 18"... that piques my interest, 36" threat range and they can probably still charge into something else... if not can just use the move after shooting strat to hide til next turn for fly by + charge and shots.  Admittedly the only thing i think heat lances are reasonable on is reavers... but they are certainly one of the biggest winners from the changes, since they went from s6 weapons to s8 and d6+2.  3 damage is a pretty big break point currently between terms gravis, and death guard, and a 5.5 avg damage on a wound is solid.

 

I do not really understand why shredders lost reroll to wound either, they weren't largely taken in the first place, and bumping them from 12" range to 18" range while nice I'm not sure required losing reroll wounds to be balanced.  But  it is what it is, if horde becomes more popular I guess they will find some use.

 

The wyche weapon thing is odd, to me, but the issue of having not being able to bring more than 1 of each til 20 bothers me less than not being able to run a weapon other than the hekatrix until you run a 10 man squad, that seems like a pointless change to nerf 5 man wych squads, I suppose its trying to prevent venom spam but, seems a round about way to do that.

[WarriorFish]

I was wondering what Ghostplate would get with the Kabalite 4+, a 5++ is nice. Haywire was my original plan, but that is an old one now so I'd need to reconsider anyway. I have plenty more Scourges to give myself choices

 

There is a lot to take in, I'm not concerned with the Wyche weapons too much as I never gave them much thought besides sprinkling some in. Though I never could decide which I liked more I suppose this solves that riddle for me :lol:

[SpiritFox22]

There is a lot to take in, I'm not concerned with the Wyche weapons too much as I never gave them much thought besides sprinkling some in. Though I never could decide which I liked more I suppose this solves that riddle for me

Honestly for me the answer is easy, Razorflail over everything because it flat out doubles the attacks.  Though if we kept the old equipment rules I have no doubt we'd see Lists running double shardnets at 5man squads and Triple in 10 man purely to abuse the Shardnets cumulative -1 to the opponents no escape rule.

 

Though another big buff I just noticed with the Wyches/Shardnets.  They trap anything that's not Titanic now via the No escape rule so opponents that bring transports/tanks in general can be taken advantage of as a literal shield from the rest of your opponents army.

[TrawlingCleaner]

I'm not too sure if I've got it right but could you take a Realspace Raid detatchment as normal and have a Patrol detachment with Drazhar and 5 Black Heart Kabalites? I haven't seen anything that would stop that. In theory it would be pretty useful to have a BH detachment purely for Agents of Vect, although Black Heart seems very good in general.

 

For me it's a toss up between Poison Tongue and Obsidian Rose for my Kabal units, both seem pretty great for different reasons.

A very nice combo would be Poison Tongue plus Potent Metallotoxins against a Vehicle, maybe using a Venom or Trueborn with a Splinter cannon?

 

This book is looking like such an improvement in nearly every way. It's got me excited for Dark Eldar again and they've jumped straight onto my painting table (Sorry SoB, you'll have to wait), my decision to buy 25 Hellions last year wasn't in vein!

[jgascoine011]

I'm not too sure if I've got it right but could you take a Realspace Raid detatchment as normal and have a Patrol detachment with Drazhar and 5 Black Heart Kabalites? I haven't seen anything that would stop that. In theory it would be pretty useful to have a BH detachment purely for Agents of Vect, although Black Heart seems very good in general.

 

For me it's a toss up between Poison Tongue and Obsidian Rose for my Kabal units, both seem pretty great for different reasons.

A very nice combo would be Poison Tongue plus Potent Metallotoxins against a Vehicle, maybe using a Venom or Trueborn with a Splinter cannon?

 

This book is looking like such an improvement in nearly every way. It's got me excited for Dark Eldar again and they've jumped straight onto my painting table (Sorry SoB, you'll have to wait), my decision to buy 25 Hellions last year wasn't in vein!

Yes you could, but drazhar can’t be the warlord and can’t have his trait, and would cost you 2CP. So ask yourself, if you wanted to have a kabal, cult and coven why not just run triple patrol and get 2CP. The real space raid just seems rather pointless tbh.

[Karhedron]

Yes you could, but drazhar can’t be the warlord and can’t have his trait, and would cost you 2CP. So ask yourself, if you wanted to have a kabal, cult and coven why not just run triple patrol and get 2CP. The real space raid just seems rather pointless tbh.

The big selling point of the Realspace Raid force is that it boosts your Archon so that he buffs all the sub-factions in your army, not just the Kabalites IIRC. Depending on how you build you army, this could be a big boost.

[GrinNfool]

 

Yes you could, but drazhar can’t be the warlord and can’t have his trait, and would cost you 2CP. So ask yourself, if you wanted to have a kabal, cult and coven why not just run triple patrol and get 2CP. The real space raid just seems rather pointless tbh.

The big selling point of the Realspace Raid force is that it boosts your Archon so that he buffs all the sub-factions in your army, not just the Kabalites IIRC. Depending on how you build you army, this could be a big boost.

 

Kinda the other benefit is specific to black heart kabal, if you really like blackheart's stuff then you want to run a realspace raid, otherwise you are losing 1/3 of their obsession.  They only give the mercenary units +1pfp if they are in a realspace raid with them.  Which ironically is one of the issues against realspace raid, since its near impossible to make a functional brigade, and realspace raid feels your 3 hq slots with mandatory haem/urian succubus/lelith and an archon who must be the warlord.  That means you must bring a patrol if you want drazhar, and why wouldn't you dude is amazing now especially if you are running incubi, and one of the biggest selling points of black heart kabal is getting incubi +1pfp.  It also means Draz can't benefit from the +1pfp. 

 

Personally I think realspace raid is very blah unless you are completely enamored with black heart +reroll 1s to wound for ALL core instead of black heart and mercenary units.  Because if you aren't then all you are getting is one model with a 6" reroll 1s to hit aura that affects all core... i mean reroll 1s is nice but dark eldar are NOT the type of army of deathball up so the actual use of that is dubious unless you have a couple units you just really want to give reroll hits of 1 to that normally couldnt' get it.  I don't currently see a good build around for that personally though.

 

It certainly seems some people are very enamored with black heart, and they are a reasonable choice to me, but if you aren't interested in blackhaert + mercs or realspace as a whole then blackheart seems very meh to me.  They are fine certainly shenanigans to be had that would be effective vs certain armies of things like venoms moving + advance turn 1 putting the tons of your opponents army in combat early, but if you opponents units are combat oriented thats not an effective tactic, and a lot of armies currently good have pretty good combat units, that are seeing use.  My feeling is that obsidian rose is the best kabal currently as we have lots of units with a small number of high damage shots.  Poisontongue is the obvious choice if you got a lot of venoms and/or really like to field a lot of kabalites for spamming splinter weapons.

[Bulwyf]

I plan on using Drazhar as the WL and having the Kabal be Poisoned Tongue with lots of Incubi and poison weapons in the list. I like running pure kabal or close to it lists personally. I don't think the realspace raiders is worth it in that scenario and instead will be doing the multiple patrols. 

[Angel of Death]

 

 

 

 

Honestly the leaks of the new codex are pushing me more to running a heavy Cult list more than anything.  Triple Patrols with 2 Succubi and Drazhar for the HQ's, 2 squads of 10 Wyches with Shardnets and Razorflails and a PGL and Powersword, 1 Wych squad at 5 with only a PGL and Powersword. One squad of Incubi, 2 sets of 6x Reavers with Heat lances and Grav talons, 2 sets of 10 Hellions with PGLs, 1 squad of Mandrakes, 2 raiders, 4 venoms with chain snares.

 

One of the Succubi becoming a Master Variant and a the 5 strong squad Bloodbrides.  Main plan is all of them going Cursed Blade and everything taking +1 str drugs, except Hellions who get the +2" movement and the Reavers who get +1BS.  So the entire army minus mandrakes has Str 5 AP-1 minimum.

 

Is it something that will warp the meta to counter?  Not in the slightest, but it'll be a blast to watch my friends melt under the buckets of dice I'll be throwing.

Can wyches take more power weapons and such again?

They do look kinda interesting, actually. I haven't paid that much attention to them, but if they get like +1 to hit, they would have very strong WS and maybe could do some damage to the enemies. I haven't played them that much earlier, because they tended to not do that much damage. But I'm sure they can be pretty fun. I knew a guy who played chaos, with berzerkers, and he was actually afraid of wyches because of their 4+ dodge and lots of whips and such. However, kabs tend to do the same amount of damage as wyches, except inside venoms and raiders, so I think thats why cults are less played than others. But I def think they deserve a the buff to their stats.

 

Well the Sgt can take the Power sword/Agoniser/Blastpistol/Phantasm Grenade Launcher, the rest are limited to 1 of each wyche weapon per squad of 10, ie 10 strong can have a razorflail, gauntlets, and shardnet if you take 10 but cant have any if there's only 9 of them.  But with base 3/4 attacks and all their weapons giving +1 attacks, minus the razor flail which merely doubles their base attacks (6 attacks), is scary for a 10ppm unit.

 

Still with Cursed Blade + Str drugs the 5 man squad throws 16 Str 5 Ap-1 D1 and the Sgt with a powersword throws 4 Str 6 Ap-3 D1 attacks.  Prior to Turn 3 all of them are hitting on 3's and wounding T4 marines on 3's and any 6's to wound putting the attacks to AP-2/4 respectively, and that's on a squad that costs 55pts.  If you spare the points for a Master Succubi and make Bloodbrides now they're swinging on 2+ to hit and the 6's to wound make their attacks AP-4/6 for a whopping extra +2ppm  +15 for the Succubi.  Wyches T2+ getting Perma Move/advance/Charge from PFP means they're very likely to get into CQC with little issues.

 

Along with the fixed Drug table allowing you to give the same drug to as many units as you damn well please.  Wyches just became FAR more consistent of a unit than before.

 

The Phanstasm Grenade launcher is just worth slapping on anything you have now too.  Assualt D3 shots and for every hit you make on an enemy unit roll 2d6, if greater than their leadership deal a MW.  What was once a dicey strat is now it's base ability and works pretty often if you combo it on a vehicle with Grizzly trophies.

 

Which Grizzly Trophies is another huge boon to our Raiders/Venoms since they have a 3" bubble of -2 leadership to every enemy unit measuring from their hulls that from what I read stacks with itself. 

 

Chain snares are hilarious since it's a flat +3 attacks on our gunboats actually can hit worth a damn, well the raider/venom can but hey now it's actually a decent option to slam them into CQC to stop over-watch.

 

*Edit*

 

That's not to say Kabalites are the worst option for troops now.  They actually kept their weapon options and Splinter rifles are really decent for anti-anything not a Vehicle.  Add in Raiders splinter racks now give Rapid fire for them at full range means they're better skirmisher units than before.  The extra attack + blade artists means they can pull CQC duty in a pinch to knock a nearly dead squad off an objective instead of just flailing after shooting doesn't work.  Their Trueborn option is amazing since they're BS2+ and ignore all penalties to shooting so Dark lance's are worth taking for them.

 

Wracks imo became better in general even with not getting the extra attack, a native 6++ 5+++ save is imo better than a 5++ 6+++ they had before.  Add in Liquifiers now are Assualt D6 Str 4 AP-2 D1 Flamers at 12" makes them perfect to spam in Venoms with Dark Technomancers since they straight up ignore the downside to it's rule of "1's to hit inflict a MW" and the fact that Grots and Talos can all take them means we are definitely seeing more of those spammed.

 

...To go along with the Talos the Ichor injector is scary on them.  On a hit with one you deal D3 MW's to your opponent, on a squad of 3 that's 3D3 MW's after they just flambeed your opponent with Liquifiers and before they start punching.  Also BTW the only things that cost to upgrade on them are Talos Gauntlets and the Twin Liquifier guns.

 

But this codex buffed Wyche Cults the most imo while bringing Covens down a tad and leaving Kabals mostly the same.  Now we've got 3 viable options to run our armies that can mix a bit thanks to the Triple patrols costing 0cp giving us 14CP to play with from the start over everyone else having 12.  Real-space Raiders isn't a bad option either, but you're not fitting Drazhar in without a brigade and that makes the minimum reqs very hard to run in a 2k list.

 

The Heat lance moving to heavy isn't even the worst trade since it's now an 18" Str 8 AP-4 Dd6+2 over it's old 18" Str 6 Ap-5 Dd6 profile, sure it hurt Scourge list a bit but you're still hitting on 4's and lets be honest I'd be taking a Darklance for dedicated AT with D3+3 damage.  It however besides them it literally doesn't affect Talos/Reavers, ie the two other units that have access to them.

 

Hellions are now point for point better than Grotesques too thanks to them getting +1 Toughness, Wounds, Attacks, and AP on their melee weapons.  For 17ppm in a Cursed blade they're native Str5 Ap-1 D2 with 3/4 attacks base, are infantry for stratagems/terrain purposes, have drug access so either Str5, 4/5 attacks on the charge, or make them T5.

 

Thank you, my friend, I am honored by your long and thorough reply.

 

Wyches becoming more of a respectable unit, after having been used as cannon fodder and combat-locking units, is actually quite interesting. I wonder if wyches are actually going to be more of a steady choice among us dark eldar players now. There were only 3 drukhari players the last time i checked at my club, and that was 2 years agio. Back then, i was running a standard kabalite army, the other drukhari player aswell, and the third one played covens. Between me and the other drukhari player, I managed to beat him, and he took an almost submissive stance to me (im also a guy no homo, hehe) and like. Take my list and just tear it apart. And I sort of mentored him on how to use your army effectively. But at this point, drukhari wasnt very big on wyches, that was what I was going to say.

 

Without their now upgraded WS(2+) and their new drugs table, they wouldnt be as strong. But I may consider if they are actually becoming a more viable choice. Not as a unit that I would play, but more to discuss on the forum about.

 

Kabalites WS(2+) is actually a HUGE  deal. It is so good, that you cant even imagine, for kab players. I remember fielding a light infantry army with kabalites and some trueborn. I had like 5-6 venoms with kabalite crew, and these 6 or so venoms dished out around 160 dices when they fired. This is what a kabalite army can do in roughly ~1000-1500pts. Now, imagine if we increase this from hitting on 3+ to 2+. That would mean that out of these 160 dices, it would be almost 140 hits == 70 wounds.

 

And each of these venoms is like less than 100pts a piece.

 

This is why we can have INSANE dps when we are at our best. The only question is, can wyches actually up this challenge, now with kabs hitting on 2+ ? Can wyches actually perform better than this? I leave that to you to decide, and see if you can answer how

 

Wracks become even more nasty if you run them as prophets of flesh. They get 4+ FnP, increased by 1. And they can mitigate 1 wound each round.

 

Talos pain engines are rly fun and hurts the enemy alot. They get like 6 attacks, WS(3+), STR7, so it wounds everything on 2+ and with chain flails it gets rerolls for everything. They can also get instant death on every attack, with poisoned(2+), good if you want to put carnifexes to sleep or give heroes a swift death.

 

Well there is a limitation on Trueborn/BloodBrides/Haemocytes as you can only upgrade a Single unit of Kabalite/Wyches/Wracks for each Master Archon/Succubi/Haemonculus you field.  They are also Capped at 10 strong each.  So for the Archon/Succubi you're paying an extra 15 to upgrade them and an additional 2ppm for the upgraded troops, Hammys cost 20 + 2ppm.

 

Talos got a bit of a Nerf regarding their Chain flails losing the re-roll to wounds but still doubling their base attacks for them.  Macroscalpels now require them to be paired to getting +1 attacks. 

 

Prophets of Flesh no longer affects the FNP roll either.  Now they ]}*See GrinNfools correction below cause I had a brainfart.*{[

 

Basically Kabals stayed roughly the same, Covens got smacked a tad with the nerf bat, mainly Prophets of Flesh losing the upgraded FNP and Dark Technomancers counting as 2 obsessions and punishing 1's to hit with a MW, D3 if the unit is a Vehicle/Monster.

 

Okay, I atleast hope haemonculus covens are still viable.

[Medjugorje]

somebody here said that Grotesqes can have a 4+++,... but I cant find it in the codex.