9th Ed. Wishlist?

[Commisar Necros]

Ya the guys on the field are mostly mid-range commanders from my understanding. Regimental and divisional HQ are in like leviathans and back fields from my memory of the lore from the ghosts series. Maybe having them interact with the battle field would be cool, but really the doctrine system does that, and the master of ordinance, fleet, ect work well in showing the interconnected-ness with regimental command. Maybe that could be the supreme commander thing we get, some LoW style high command thing, since a guardsmen no matter how senior is still just a guy.

[OldWherewolf]

I was watching Tabletop Titans yesterday, AdMech vs. Black Templars, and I realized something...

 

We're not going far enough with these ideas

 

AdMech literally outfought BT in HtH, with solid shooting to back it up.  Our weakness is HtH, and there's twice as much of HtH as there is shooting, so our shooting has to be~2x as lethal as it currently is to bring us up to new codex standards (DE & AdMech).

 

Think about it, a 9th edition Ironstrider is 35 points, a sentinel is 35 points, but the IS has 6 autocannon shots (vs our 2) or 2 Lascannon shots (vs our 1, with D3+3 vs our D6), for the same T and W, not to mention the better BS and far better Dogmas, WL Traits, etc.  So the Sentinel has to be 2x as lethal just to keep up.

 

Since Rangers+GR are the basic AdMech troop, let's compare that to the guardsman LasGun.  @99point, a Ranger will do 3.6 wounds to a T4 MEQ BASE.  No doctrines, Forge World buffs, re-rolls, etc.

 

18 guardsmen (matches the current point cost) with our current lasguns would need 66 shots (3.7 each) to do that same damage to T4MEQ.  Now, buffing the AP to -1 with our current base of 36 shots gives us 3W to T4MEQ, but that assumes rapid firing all the time, so Lasguns would have to change to Rapid fire 2, 24" AP-1 to be roughly comparable, and would still be inferior, and still hasn't made up for our weakness in HtH.

 

Yikes!

[sairence]

Yeah, that is something you notice sometimes with Guard players...a lot of great fluff ideas, but often this unspoken worry of going too far and creating a monster. When the id as are actually fairly tame by comparison. :P

 

Considering we've been near the bottom of the pile for a while and the trend with new books it would be nice to dream a bit more.

 

Mainly I just hope that whoever writes/wrote the 9th ed Guard codex has solid ideas of what Guard is meant to be able to do and what makes us unique.

Edited May 23, 2021 by sairence

[OldWherewolf]

Totally agree.  I think we already have a unique codex & rules & playstyle, we just need to be brought up to 9th's level of lethality.  I think we were aiming for something around the SM codex, but that has been far surpassed by the codicies of late. 

[jarms48]

Tempted to pick up the new Ad-Mech codex now, as it could give a good idea on how a Guard codex could go. Apparently there's a ton of changes, even for super-heavies.

[sairence]

Tempted to pick up the new Ad-Mech codex now, as it could give a good idea on how a Guard codex could go. Apparently there's a ton of changes, even for super-heavies.

They can take a free superheavy aux detacument for a questor mechanicus knight unit, which is pretty neat. Guard could easily get the same for an AM superheavy.

[Diagramdude]

Is there an ETA on the guard codex? Or a rough idea of how many faction codex releases between now and our release?

[sairence]

Is there an ETA on the guard codex? Or a rough idea of how many faction codex releases between now and our release?

Nope. AdMech is up now, Sisters should be coming I think and a box for Thousand Sons vs Grey Knights has been teased, so it's likely their Codexes will come around that. No hints about us.

 

Realistically, we are pretty much the oldest remaining 8th ed Codexes out...GK may be slightly older, not sure. But who knows how much of a role that plays.

[OldWherewolf]

With no rumors, I think we have to wait a while.  From the rumor mill & what GW has teased, I'm guessing SoB are next, followed by GK+Thousands Sons and/or Demons.  It just means the longer we wait, the better our codex will be!
 
Speaking of, I thought of a cool idea for Hellhounds:
 
 

Burn 'em out!

While most armies think cover is a useful tool, Hellhounds strike fear into units by igniting the entire forest around them or turning bunkers into burning tombs.

When attacking a unit in cover with an Inferno cannon, the targeted unit does not gain any benefits of cover, and the Inferno cannot receives a +1 to Wound and and additional -1AP (to a total of -2).

This wouldn't be a strategm, just a baseline rule.  There are many abilities that "ignore cover", but a hellhound with an Inferno Cannon is supposed to be designed against these entrenched units.  This turns the whole concept of cover on it's ear, while providing a unique benefit/rule to Hellhounds

[Diagramdude]

I like that for the Hellhound but take it up a notch and have it turn off cover for that unit for the rest of the phase like the Catachan order.

[OldWherewolf]

Here's an idea

 

Saturation Fire

 

Sometimes, weight of fire can kill even the most entrenched enemy by hitting the vision slots or weak spots in the armor.

 

When guardsmen, scions and veterans (not conscripts) use FRFSRF:  unmodified 6s with lasguns, laspistols and hot-shot lasguns/laspistols cause a mortal wound.

If lasguns are RF1, then it's on the to-hit roll.  If lasguns are RF2 then it's on the to-wound roll.  Either way, it will cause about 3 mortal wounds with 10 LGs with FRFSRF, not overpowering, but means there's a chance to kill something, rather than just do nothing. 

[Shamansky]

Here's an idea

 

Saturation Fire

 

Sometimes, weight of fire can kill even the most entrenched enemy by hitting the vision slots or weak spots in the armor.

 

When guardsmen, scions and veterans (not conscripts) use FRFSRF:  unmodified 6s with lasguns, laspistols and hot-shot lasguns/laspistols cause a mortal wound.

If lasguns are RF1, then it's on the to-hit roll.  If lasguns are RF2 then it's on the to-wound roll.  Either way, it will cause about 3 mortal wounds with 10 LGs with FRFSRF, not overpowering, but means there's a chance to kill something, rather than just do nothing. 

 

If that aplied Infantry squad would cost as a Primaris unit I'm afrad

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

Would be alright, but I would make it a Stratagem and the attack sequence for any given attack would have to end once the MW is dealt. It wouldn't be overpowered that way, you'd need to use a CP to activate the Stratagem, then use up an order on FRFSRF, then roll to hit and finally the MW would count instead of the weapons attack rather than in addition to it. Both fluff and rules wise it shouldn't be something that could be counted on to wipe :cuss out, but you could throw caution to the wind and end up doing some serious damage with luck. Sort of a Hail Mary. Edited May 27, 2021 by Captain Smashy Pants

[OldWherewolf]

Since Rangers+GR are the basic AdMech troop, let's compare that to the guardsman LasGun.  @99point, a Ranger will do 3.6 wounds to a T4 MEQ BASE.  No doctrines, Forge World buffs, re-rolls, etc.

 

18 guardsmen (matches the current point cost) with our current lasguns would need 66 shots (3.7 each) to do that same damage to T4MEQ.  Now, buffing the AP to -1 with our current base of 36 shots gives us 3W to T4MEQ, but that assumes rapid firing all the time, so Lasguns would have to change to Rapid fire 2, 24" AP-1 to be roughly comparable, and would still be inferior, and still hasn't made up for our weakness in HtH.

Ok, I was a little off on my math, but not too far.  We're taken in squads of 10, so 55 points, keeping RF1 that means we do 2.2 base wounds to a MEQ with FRFSRF.  With 6s to wound doing mortals, 40 shots, hitting on 4s (20 hits), yields ~3.3MW for a total of 5.5 wounds, or 2.5 T4MEQ, or ~50 points of models. 

• Now we do almost nothing in the next 2 HtH phases. 
• The enemy is within 12" for the 40 shots
• It's 10 models so we suffer from blast
• Hitting on 5s drops that to 2.2MW, overwatch to 1 MW.

So basically we're just getting our points back.  Combine that with 10 ObSec bodies on a point, and you get a fairly balanced unit for 9th.  Now take them in platoons, and you've got a really strong army that has a ton of bodies that has to be dealt with, which boosts the survivability of other units (like our tanks...) because firepower has to be diverted to take care of our now-effective massed infantry.

 

edit: minor correction

Edited May 27, 2021 by Brainpsyk

[Khornestar]

Gimme back my stormhammer rules, is my wish. I don’t wanna run it as another baneblade variant…

[Diagramdude]

I would like the concentrated fire stratagem extended to all infantry units not just the HWT. If your infantry unit all targets the same unit, +1 to hit and wound. Would give infantry squads or veterans or SWS a needed boost without breaking the game with mortal wound lasguns.

[sitnam]

We're not going far enough with these ideas

 

Think about it, a 9th edition Ironstrider is 35 points, a sentinel is 35 points, but the IS has 6 autocannon shots (vs our 2) or 2 Lascannon shots (vs our 1, with D3+3 vs our D6), for the same T and W, not to mention the better BS and far better Dogmas, WL Traits, etc. So the Sentinel has to be 2x as lethal just to keep up.

 

 

Where did you get 35 points from? I just checked the codex and it lists Ironstrider as 65 points

[OldWherewolf]

Where did you get 35 points from? I just checked the codex and it lists Ironstrider as 65 points

 

From a leaks site.  If it's 65 points, that's a whole lot better.  But still, the chickens still have a better lascannon (d3+3), and 2 of them, with a better BS.  With the double las, are the chickens 75 point each?

[jarms48]

I would like the concentrated fire stratagem extended to all infantry units not just the HWT. If your infantry unit all targets the same unit, +1 to hit and wound. Would give infantry squads or veterans or SWS a needed boost without breaking the game with mortal wound lasguns.

 

Personally, I'd like to see Overlapping Fields of Fire to be made a general stratagem and make Vengeance for Cadia! the unique Cadian stratagem. It seems a little silly that Imperial Guard soldiers on the other side of the galaxy who might not have even known about the destruction of Cadia, or more commonly know about the destruction of Cadia but hold no cultural ties to them, can use this stratagem. 

 

Regarding Concentrated Fire specifically, I'd rather it be applied to Heavy Weapon Squads and Sentinels. Maybe it could also extend to Special Weapon Squads, to give them some more utility over Command Squads. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by jarms48

[duz_]

This is circulating from the up coming CA

Helps a bit with Baneblades et al?

 

[OldWherewolf]

I think that was on our wishlist, along with making super-heavies not so squishy.  The next benefit is that it gives us 2 more CPs to spend on other things

 

I think this FAQ and mission pack also gave us another buff, with Thin Their Ranks (now No Prisoners) not counting wounds against tanks,characters and monsters.  So unless you're running an infantry spam army, having 99 guys only gives 9 VPs, and no double-dipping against our tanks.  (just beware of commanders and Bullgryns with multiple wounds).

 

So that drops the guaranteed VPs against us from 30 down to below 20, which is HUGE.  Killing 3 TCs and 2 manticores is now 10 VPs for Bring It Down when you include the change from January. 

[Commisar Necros]

So if I read that right, I could bring a Baneblade because its the same faction:Astra Militarum, but not a Knight with the same thing since it only shares faction:Imperium? That seems like a pretty cool thing all in all. Like its a relic of the army being brought onto the field, not a separate thing tagging along.

 

The changes to secondaries helps a lot I think. I don't like having to buy yet another book, but may need to order this one.

[sitnam]

So if I read that right, I could bring a Baneblade because its the same faction:Astra Militarum, but not a Knight with the same thing since it only shares faction:Imperium? That seems like a pretty cool thing all in all. Like its a relic of the army being brought onto the field, not a separate thing tagging along.

 

The changes to secondaries helps a lot I think. I don't like having to buy yet another book, but may need to order this one.

Given that AdMech got similar rules for Mars aligned Knights, it wouldn't surprise me for Guard to get something for their tanks.

 

I wonder if Terran aligned Knight houses get a similar rules for non-Mech forces

[Shamansky]

To be honest, i was tired of lists under name "Astra Militarum" where all the job was done by Knights. So i'd be happy to see real Guard Lords Of War on tables again.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Shamansky

[Khornestar]

This is circulating from the up coming CA

Helps a bit with Baneblades et al?

 

 

It does, but in terms of design philosophy I'm not really sure why one needs to spend the points for the unit AND additional CP just to bring them to the game. There is already a cost, in points and preventing other units being taken as a result.

 

Superheavy units are not particularly good, as a category, so reducing the CP cost just makes it more not great IMO. Two steps forward...

Edited June 7, 2021 by Juggernut