State of the Union (Heresy)

[Slips]

 

 

 

Superb info thanks, so it seems like everything is getting turned up a notch

 

 

Does this mean the humble tactical marine is getting a boost too, or will become even more of a useless tax (as a generalisation)?

 

AS far as I know, Tactical squads are getting a boost of some kind I just dont know the specifics; at the very least access to the various bayonets means that they aren't absolute wet noodles in CC anymore.

 

As for Breachers, Despoilers, Assault Marines, etc, no idea.

 

We know Astartes Shotguns got Concussive which reduces WS of units hit by a concussive weapon by 1 so thats a slight change to recon marines

 

Rotor Cannons are now assault weapons instead of salvo and have pinning and shell shock iirc which means theyre actually a potentially viable option of Tac Support squads.

 

Thats about as far as what I know is happening to the generic troops options goes.

[DesuVult]

More leaks for UM, IF, and IH on 4chan, thanks to Deus Vult in the main thread in N&R: https://imgur.com/a/1uFHWWz

 

There are a few pages of stuff missing such as the Phalanx Warders options (they are pretty much unchanged from what I know) and the IF armory/consul page.

 

First impressions for IF:

• +1BS to bolt and auto weapons is neat but it seems we lost the re-rolls in challenges for our character
• Stone Gauntlet got better
• Hammerfall Strikeforce is useable
• New Templar RoW is neat
• Stormshields can now be taken on non-TDA ICs
• Templar flat 2W across the board and any of them can take a Plasma Pistol if you want but otherwise no big changes
• Phalanx Warders have Power Axe, bolter, bolt pistol as baseline, sick, and are generally improved
• Polux got buffed to 2+/3++ from 3+/3++ and has a Sol Glove instead of regular power fist. Meaning he has S10 Ap1 attacks in melee but his WLT was nerfed
• Sigismund got better - always on instant death now
• Dorn got more expensive but also got better; always swinging at S8 Ap2 but instant death isn't always on; his armor got improved to being wounded on a 4+ or worse instead of 3+ or worse his bolter is also assault instead of Salvo may have lost Aetos Dios as a unique option though, sadly. He also lost Rampage so he cant get 9 attacks anymore but retained WS8 (which can still go to WS9 with Phalanx Warders) and 6A base is still better than before. Although if reaping blow is unchanged from its current form then he can get +2 attacks for 9 on a charge.

If this is what we're getting - more or less - at launch, then I am a happy camper.

 

In Stone Gauntlet Rann has a rerollable 4++

[Slips]

 

More leaks for UM, IF, and IH on 4chan, thanks to Deus Vult in the main thread in N&R: https://imgur.com/a/1uFHWWz

 

There are a few pages of stuff missing such as the Phalanx Warders options (they are pretty much unchanged from what I know) and the IF armory/consul page.

 

First impressions for IF:

• +1BS to bolt and auto weapons is neat but it seems we lost the re-rolls in challenges for our character
• Stone Gauntlet got better
• Hammerfall Strikeforce is useable
• New Templar RoW is neat
• Stormshields can now be taken on non-TDA ICs
• Templar flat 2W across the board and any of them can take a Plasma Pistol if you want but otherwise no big changes
• Phalanx Warders have Power Axe, bolter, bolt pistol as baseline, sick, and are generally improved
• Polux got buffed to 2+/3++ from 3+/3++ and has a Sol Glove instead of regular power fist. Meaning he has S10 Ap1 attacks in melee but his WLT was nerfed
• Sigismund got better - always on instant death now
• Dorn got more expensive but also got better; always swinging at S8 Ap2 but instant death isn't always on; his armor got improved to being wounded on a 4+ or worse instead of 3+ or worse his bolter is also assault instead of Salvo may have lost Aetos Dios as a unique option though, sadly. He also lost Rampage so he cant get 9 attacks anymore but retained WS8 (which can still go to WS9 with Phalanx Warders) and 6A base is still better than before. Although if reaping blow is unchanged from its current form then he can get +2 attacks for 9 on a charge.

If this is what we're getting - more or less - at launch, then I am a happy camper.

 

In Stone Gauntlet Rann has a rerollable 4++

 

I forgot that bit; if hes with a Squad of Phalanx Warders I think that means he could get a 3++ re-rollable but Id have to double check. Also means he and any warders he is with get +1WS whether they charge (Rann) or get charged (Warders). Some neat synergies there for him.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Slips

[Astartes Consul]

Has anyone suggested that they’re maybe making all marines 2W?

[No Foes Remain]

I'm quite enjoying these new Legion rules. They seem more on par with each other rather than the gradual creep or over complications, which is to be expected if they are going to release all the Legion rules in a loyalist and traitor books near the side.

[Petitioner's City]

Has anyone suggested that they’re maybe making all marines 2W?

 

Terror Squads alas are 1W.

 

 

I'm quite enjoying these new Legion rules. They seem more on par with each other rather than the gradual creep or over complications, which is to be expected if they are going to release all the Legion rules in a loyalist and traitor books near the side.

 

It's a great re-setting of the table. Although much sadness over what does seem to be lost - hopefully there is some kind of a get-you-by or legends-style download document 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Petitioner's City

[Lord Marshal]

The obvious No Model, No Rules going on does make me worry Militia are about to get the snip.

[No Foes Remain]

 

I'm quite enjoying these new Legion rules. They seem more on par with each other rather than the gradual creep or over complications, which is to be expected if they are going to release all the Legion rules in a loyalist and traitor books near the side.

 

It's a great re-setting of the table. Although much sadness over what does seem to be lost - hopefully there is some kind of a get-you-by or legends-style download document 

 

Agreed, there are some floating images of the Preator sheet about (seem to be pictures of a screen [which is the norm it seems]) and the bording shield is part of the swap bolt pistol/ccw options. So no more sword+pistol+board. Which is annoying as I've just finished a Ultramarine Chaplain with a sword and a plasma pistol with one of the Invitarii shields.

[Grifftofer]

The obvious No Model, No Rules going on does make me worry Militia are about to get the snip.

I believe that at least one of the rules leaked had specific mention of Militia. So they're definitely not completely gone, but they may not be exactly the same as before.

 

EDIT: Just checked and it was the Psyker rule that mentioned an "Imperialis Militia Rogue Psyker"

Edited March 29, 2022 by Grifftofer

[Billy Butcher]

Has Stone gauntlet lost the +1T on those leaks?

[WGXH]

I'm so curious about some of the logic of these design choices. Between a permanent transhuman effect, increased numbers of attacks compared to last edition (though normalising all brothers, Curze aside) and an extra wound compared to many, Dorn at a glance seems to be the premier challenger against all his brothers thus far leaked. In terms of durability, it certainly feels as though he's tougher than Mortarion- who simply cannot endure Hammers to the face where Dorn can.

 

And cheaper than a good few of them to boot!

 

Naturally examining this in a vacuum isn't entirely helpful, but we will see how it all pans out. I'm not sure I like Dorn being the toughest thematically over, say, Mortarion or Vulkan- who has yet to be seen, in fairness.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Slips I'm sorry for the hot take, but Sigismund is still bad. He's better than he was, but if he was 50 points cheaper I still think he'd be overpriced.

[Fallen11]

Slips I'm sorry for the hot take, but Sigismund is still bad. He's better than he was, but if he was 50 points cheaper I still think he'd be overpriced.

wait wut?

he is usually like 50pts more expensive than other characters, will slay any one in single round of combat, will more or less kill anything short of primarch. Why is he bad?

[infyrana]

Any news on Death Guard?

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Slips I'm sorry for the hot take, but Sigismund is still bad. He's better than he was, but if he was 50 points cheaper I still think he'd be overpriced.

wait wut?

he is usually like 50pts more expensive than other characters, will slay any one in single round of combat, will more or less kill anything short of primarch. Why is he bad?

Because only being good at killing multiwound models with low WS and high toughness isnt worth a huge tax? You can make a character sniper by giving a praetor a power fist. Or a unit of terminators. Both could actually fight more targets and the terminators can score. They also kill more multiwound meq and teq for their points than always-on instant death sigi.

 

So if he isn't as good at killing characters, infantry, and vehicles and basically doesn't do anything for the army now that the templar row exists, why does he cost so much?

 

Khârn puts him to shame with gorechild at 40 points less.

[TrawlingCleaner]

As I'm coming into 30k new, I'm still getting used to the rules and how things are formatted etc. Just to double check, on the leaked IH rules it says that I can upgrade 1 Praetor in Cataphractii to have Gorgon armour.

My question is: Do a squad of Gorgon Terminators get the rules for their armour from this page (279)? As they've already got the 2+, 5++, 5+++ on their "datasheet" do they have the Blind ability or does that only apply if they have a Gorgon armoured Praetor in the unit?

[Fallen11]

 

 

Slips I'm sorry for the hot take, but Sigismund is still bad. He's better than he was, but if he was 50 points cheaper I still think he'd be overpriced.

wait wut?

he is usually like 50pts more expensive than other characters, will slay any one in single round of combat, will more or less kill anything short of primarch. Why is he bad?

Because only being good at killing multiwound models with low WS and high toughness isnt worth a huge tax? You can make a character sniper by giving a praetor a power fist. Or a unit of terminators. Both could actually fight more targets and the terminators can score. They also kill more multiwound meq and teq for their points than always-on instant death sigi.

 

So if he isn't as good at killing characters, infantry, and vehicles and basically doesn't do anything for the army now that the templar row exists, why does he cost so much?

 

Khârn puts him to shame with gorechild at 40 points less.

 

He is Ws7,  that is primarch level, basically almost everything is below him. How is he good vs low WS when basically only primarch are on his level?

Yes, you can give preator power fist, and basically sargent with pf can kill your praetor in challenge while you praetor kills that sargent.

Sigismunds hits and wounds basically everything on 3, has insta death, is eternal warrior, kills multiwound models with single hits. ANd in challenge since you have to reroll inv saves, you are dead unless you are primarch.

Not sure why you think all that is worth 180pts and that being too expensive.

 

He vs Khârn, end up with death Khârn and him sufferin what, 1 wound?

Edited March 29, 2022 by Fallen11

[dicebod]

 

 

 

Slips I'm sorry for the hot take, but Sigismund is still bad. He's better than he was, but if he was 50 points cheaper I still think he'd be overpriced.

wait wut?

he is usually like 50pts more expensive than other characters, will slay any one in single round of combat, will more or less kill anything short of primarch. Why is he bad?

Because only being good at killing multiwound models with low WS and high toughness isnt worth a huge tax? You can make a character sniper by giving a praetor a power fist. Or a unit of terminators. Both could actually fight more targets and the terminators can score. They also kill more multiwound meq and teq for their points than always-on instant death sigi.

 

So if he isn't as good at killing characters, infantry, and vehicles and basically doesn't do anything for the army now that the templar row exists, why does he cost so much?

 

Khârn puts him to shame with gorechild at 40 points less.

 

He is Ws7,  that is primarch level, basically almost everything is below him. How is he good vs low WS when basically only primarch are on his level?

Yes, you can give preator power fist, and basically sargent with pf can kill your praetor in challenge while you praetor kills that sargent.

Sigismunds hits and wounds basically everything on 3, has insta death, is eternal warrior, kills multiwound models with single hits. ANd in challenge since you have to reroll inv saves, you are dead unless you are primarch.

Not sure why you think all that is worth 180pts and that being too expensive.

 

He vs Khârn, end up with death Khârn and him sufferin what, 1 wound?

 

Yeah, this take seems thermonuclear. For one the Black Sword is Instant Death all the time now, not just in a challenge, making him a lot more effective when your opponent denies you a challenge. And from a meta perspective, with so many more 2-wound units running around now ID at a good initiative becomes even more important. Also Slayer of Kings got better by adding EC-style Combat Resolution bonuses.

[Vazzy]

I will say if the missing units are gone gone, I’m going to be pretty upset. I have a ten man squad of both Locutarii and Fulmentarus, and if the Enigmatii Cabal gets the axe too, that’s my entire Dark Angels army toasted thanks to Serpents Bane.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

Slips I'm sorry for the hot take, but Sigismund is still bad. He's better than he was, but if he was 50 points cheaper I still think he'd be overpriced.

wait wut?

he is usually like 50pts more expensive than other characters, will slay any one in single round of combat, will more or less kill anything short of primarch. Why is he bad?

Because only being good at killing multiwound models with low WS and high toughness isnt worth a huge tax? You can make a character sniper by giving a praetor a power fist. Or a unit of terminators. Both could actually fight more targets and the terminators can score. They also kill more multiwound meq and teq for their points than always-on instant death sigi.

 

So if he isn't as good at killing characters, infantry, and vehicles and basically doesn't do anything for the army now that the templar row exists, why does he cost so much?

 

Khârn puts him to shame with gorechild at 40 points less.

 

He is Ws7,  that is primarch level, basically almost everything is below him. How is he good vs low WS when basically only primarch are on his level?

Yes, you can give preator power fist, and basically sargent with pf can kill your praetor in challenge while you praetor kills that sargent.

Sigismunds hits and wounds basically everything on 3, has insta death, is eternal warrior, kills multiwound models with single hits. ANd in challenge since you have to reroll inv saves, you are dead unless you are primarch.

Not sure why you think all that is worth 180pts and that being too expensive.

 

 

 

Well I'll really break it down for you.

 

Sigismund has 5 WS 7, STR 6 attacks on the charge. It's a relatively low amount of attacks, that average 3.3 wounds to meq, 1.6 wounds to teq/custodes, 3.3 wounds to thallax, 2 wounds to vorax and ~1.3 wounds to Castellax/domitars. To guestimate points killed on the charge:

 

-most elite meq models tend to cost ~30 points. So maximum ~90 points of meq. Minimum is like 30 points.

-most terminators cost ~45 points after upgrades. So ~45 points.

-thallax are 40 points each (their upgrades are a flat cost for the unit so we'll leave it there). So 120 points.  

-vorax are 65 points each base. So minimum 130 points.

-castellax are 105 base. So minimum 105 points.

-domitars are 175 base. So minimum of 175 points.

 

So when I said he's good at killing low WS, high toughness, multi-wound models, this is why; the value you get is much, much higher than normal marine targets. If you can hit a breakpoint like with thallax and castellax to hit on 2s, it really helps. Killing these targets is something other characters can't really be built to do, so this is his niche.

 

"But but but, characters, he kills characters! That's why his WS is so next level and instant death and you didn't calculate their points!" I hear you cry. Yes, he kills characters in one round. But, as I already mentioned, so do other units. It doesn't matter if he's "primarch level" if a WS 6 praetor kills his opponent just as well. Killing characters is something a praetor with a fist and iron halo can do at 145 points. 

 

"CHALLENGES!!!" they roar. Guys. No one is ever accepting a challenge from sigismund. They're not making themselves reroll invuls, and they're certainly not going to activate your warlord trait. Why do you think they removed the challenge requirement for Instant Death? And guess what, every legion lost rules that forced challenges.

 

Let's summarize:

-He can't kill most marine targets better than generic praetors.

-He can't kill most characters better than generic praetors.

-He can't kill vehicles better than generic praetors.

-He doesn't offer any creative army buff or unique FOC swap. 

-He also costs at least 30 points more. 

 

 

 

He vs Khârn, end up with death Khârn and him sufferin what, 1 wound?

 

That's not what I said. I said compare what you get for their price:

 

First, you get a warlord trait that actually functions; no Reactions against Khârn's charges. It's always on, it's going to apply in-game, and your opponent can't just say no to turn it off. 

 

Second, you have a chance of not giving up VPs when he dies; VPs are how you win. Oh and he might even come back to life. 

 

Third, with gorechild you have 9 WS 7, STR 5 AP 2, armourbane, shred, murderous strike 3+ on the charge. That's flat out better against every target profile than sigismund.

 

Fourth, even with gorechild, hes 35 points cheaper.

Edited March 29, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Noserenda]

Honestly though, the biggest question i have right now? Why people keep calling it Heresy 2.0 rather than 2nd Edition when many in the community hate FAQs and general updates, including Forgeworld :P 

[Petitioner's City]

But Skimask, what if there is a punishment for refusing a challenge in the new rules?

[Slips]

But Skimask, what if there is a punishment for refusing a challenge in the new rules?

I'm really rusty on this interaction but with Siggy getting a 3+ Precision Strikes that, to me, would allow him to still try and merc whoever decided to challenge dodge him the only thing that wouldn't be 'on' in this case is him forcing invuln rerolls.

[ShadowCore67]

Anyone else think Iron Hands seem really strong? Any vehicle in a list with Ferrus will have a 4+ IWND.

 

Not to mention their new assault graviton weapons.

Edited March 29, 2022 by ShadowCore67

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

But Skimask, what if there is a punishment for refusing a challenge in the new rules?

I'm really rusty on this interaction but with Siggy getting a 3+ Precision Strikes that, to me, would allow him to still try and merc whoever decided to challenge dodge him the only thing that wouldn't be 'on' in this case is him forcing invuln rerolls.

No multiquote on mobile so this is my ghetto version.

 

@Petitioner I hope there is. Challenges got lifted out of fantasy, but badly. In fantasy you basically set aside the challengers; they were immune to the combat, but you could overkill your opponent for bonus combat resolution that was hard to get elsewhere. Refusing a challenge meant the leadership value and supporting rules couldn't be used for the model (in addition to them not fighting). Losing ld 10, stubborn or battle standard bearer bonuses to combat res was a huge blow.

 

6th 40k just had the challenge lock, but none of the overkill. So you could challenge a primarch and waste a round of their attacks (except angron). Or you could tank a squad on the objective for a while and disrupt scoring.

You only lost the LD value of the character though, so it was only the output that you were concerned about for refusing.

 

7th saw how that was being abused and allowed overspill into and out of the challenge. But still, no penalty other than no fighting and no leadership value.

 

They definitely need to rethink what the purpose of a challenge is, other than sniping an extra attack off a seargent. The stakes are incredibly low for both sides and it's turned the mechanic more into a "you can't focus down my character for one round because he was in a challenge" type of thing.

 

Bringing this back around to sigismund, I'm not sure what they could do to ever make you want to accept a challenge from him. Especially with your warlord.

 

@slips if the supporting mechanics remains the same then ya, you can still allocate hits to them with precision strikes, but they'd also get look out sir on a 2+. You also would deny them the activation of the warlord trait even if he did just precision them out, and VPs win you the game.