State of the Union (Heresy)

[Petitioner's City]

I hope Emperor's Children get buffed.

 

The leaks paint a picture of their rules where the writers were still testing the waters and had no idea of what they were doing for the big picture.

 

Legion Rules: +1 initiative but only on the charge, cannot be disordered. Defensive weapons in vehicles react better. Not great. The 3rd should be about precision and speed more than just melee.

 

Reaction: Decent. When charged, you roll for charge as well. Depending on the roll the unit steals the charge or shoots.

 

Basic WT: Garbage. +1WS but only to units within 12" and only after they pass a morale check. When is this ever gonna come up?

 

Traitor WT: Bad. Basically warlord LARPs as a comissar and kills one marine to prevent failing morale.

 

Loyalist WT: Extremely good. All EC in the whole DETACHMENT gain +1WS against traitor astartes. Compare to the ludicrous restrictions of the basic WT.

 

Wargear: Some upgrades are good while others are ultra-situational. 15points is okay I guess. Phoenix weapons are decent and also free.

 

Maru Skara: very good. No longer do you gamble when the reserves arrive,and the movement bonus remains active as long as you hold back the "killing blow", not just the 1st turn.

 

3rd Company Elite: Potentially strong but expensive, since it's based around sonic shriekers/lances and ofc the Kakophoni.

 

 

It's a mixed bag, more on the side of weak. But most of all it's inconsistent, especislly the WT.

 

Given that Andy Hoare plays Emperor's Children, I am these actually are rather carefully thought through?

Edited March 26, 2022 by Petitioner's City

[The Scorpion]

I mean... it is possible. But I doubt it.

For example, there is no way that the Warlord Traits that give +1WS are truly thought through.

The basic WT gives +1WS only within a 12" bubble, and only after the units within the bubble also pass a morale test.

The Loyalist one gives +1WS across the whole detachment, and the bonus activates the moment your marines come in contact with any traitor.

Edited March 26, 2022 by The Scorpion

[SkimaskMohawk]

I hope Emperor's Children get buffed.

 

The leaks paint a picture of their rules where the writers were still testing the waters and had no idea of what they were doing for the big picture.

 

Legion Rules: +1 initiative but only on the charge, cannot be disordered. Defensive weapons in vehicles react better. Not great. The 3rd should be about precision and speed more than just melee.

 

Reaction: Decent. When charged, you roll for charge as well. Depending on the roll the unit steals the charge or shoots.

 

Basic WT: Garbage. +1WS but only to units within 12" and only after they pass a morale check. When is this ever gonna come up?

 

Traitor WT: Bad. Basically warlord LARPs as a comissar and kills one marine to prevent failing morale.

 

Loyalist WT: Extremely good. All EC in the whole DETACHMENT gain +1WS against traitor astartes. Compare to the ludicrous restrictions of the basic WT.

 

Wargear: Some upgrades are good while others are ultra-situational. 15points is okay I guess. Phoenix weapons are decent and also free.

 

Maru Skara: very good. No longer do you gamble when the reserves arrive,and the movement bonus remains active as long as you hold back the "killing blow", not just the 1st turn.

 

3rd Company Elite: Potentially strong but expensive, since it's based around sonic shriekers/lances and ofc the Kakophoni.

 

 

It's a mixed bag, more on the side of weak. But most of all it's inconsistent, especislly the WT.

This is kind of a weird take.

 

Their elite melee units are consistently hit on 6s with Sonic shreiekers. They can then make their attacks ap 1 and carve through anything with murderous strike weapons. If you don't need the ap 1, they strike at higher initiative.

 

Their characters are good. Which also offsets their whatever generic traits.

 

3rd company elite make kakophany really solid backline that can score. Still fodder for barrage, but they pump out the long range-mid range damage.

 

Maru skara is pretty similar. Have to see if you can charge from outflank. But considering EC actually have good melee now, it's better than it previously was since it boosts you up. It always let you choose when to bring stuff on though.

 

They're pretty good now. Instead of a joke who could only bring a primarch and a special character.

[The Scorpion]

I guess? I hope.

 

Still, it might just be personal opinion, but I just feel their rules are all over the place.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I guess? I hope.

 

Still, it might just be personal opinion, but I just feel their rules are all over the place.

Well I'll put it like this; how much would you pay for an extra wound, being hit on 6s in combat, murderous strike, an extra 1" of movement and ap 1 (albeit at initiative 1) on Pheonix terminators?

 

Would it be 55 points less for the unit and 5 less per additional model? An aggressively costed unit to say the least.

[jaxom]

I think it's that a lot of their power is in the special units and characters. Eidolon and Lucius seem great.

[Cadmus Tyro]

 

I guess? I hope.

Still, it might just be personal opinion, but I just feel their rules are all over the place.

Well I'll put it like this; how much would you pay for an extra wound, being hit on 6s in combat, murderous strike, an extra 1" of movement and ap 1 (albeit at initiative 1) on Pheonix terminators?

Would it be 55 points less for the unit and 5 less per additional model? An aggressively costed unit to say the least.

Well, if you get the charge, with perfect offensive they will be striking at I2 before unwieldy weapons thanks to LA:EC. Combined with murderous strike and Str6 they will do a number on opposing terminators. Edited March 27, 2022 by Cadmus Tyro

[Plaguecaster]

I'm looking forward to try out Death Guard in heresy with the possibilities of getting alot of the vehicles in plastic which will make it so much more easier to build an army, hopefully if it is released through gw as plastic it will make it alot more accepted and available here in NZ. Would love to field a heresy style DG force after their fall to Nurgle using plague marines and deathshroud, hopefully there will be plastic breachers as id love to convert them up using plague marine bits.

[Mango Polo]

 

 

I guess? I hope.

Still, it might just be personal opinion, but I just feel their rules are all over the place.

Well I'll put it like this; how much would you pay for an extra wound, being hit on 6s in combat, murderous strike, an extra 1" of movement and ap 1 (albeit at initiative 1) on Pheonix terminators?

Would it be 55 points less for the unit and 5 less per additional model? An aggressively costed unit to say the least.

Well, if you get the charge, with perfect offensive they will be striking at I2 before unwieldy weapons thanks to LA:EC. Combined with murderous strike and Str6 they will do a number on opposing terminators.

 

We aalso don't know what Reach does. A little early to start crying, indeed.

[Cactus]

I was looking at cadaere weapons yesterday and it looks like Reach (x) is strike at +x initiative.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I was looking at cadaere weapons yesterday and it looks like Reach (x) is strike at +x initiative.

Wonder what sudden strike is then lol.

 

From Tarvitz' rules it looks like progressive scoring is a thing. I really, really, don't like progressive scoring. It leads to units that just sit around on objectives all game and the battle feels very inorganic.

 

Every GW game with set objectives and progressive scoring I've replaced with d3+2 objectives and end game scoring. It's made for a far better experience in every case.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

I was looking at cadaere weapons yesterday and it looks like Reach (x) is strike at +x initiative.

 

Reach definitely manipulates initiative, but I don't think it's a flat boost - I'm kinda expecting it to work like strike at +x Initiative on a turn when charging/ being charged 

[Noserenda]

I would hope anything as simple as +stat would not be a USR, thats just needless page turning poor design.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I would hope anything as simple as +stat would not be a USR, thats just needless page turning poor design.

I think reach is going to interact with engagement range personally. The initiative thing seems to stack up pretty oddly.

 

People are looking at the meteor hammer and think "well it used to give bonus initiative, so reach must be that".

 

But the Pheonix spear also has reach. Are we saying they thought Pheonix terminators needed 3 sources of +1 initiative and should strike at initiative 7? That's such an odd design choice; 5 is the breakpoint for fighting power armour and 2 for fighting terminators. You don't need initiative 7 on ap 3 to fight anything in the game lol.

Edited March 27, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Grifftofer]

 

I would hope anything as simple as +stat would not be a USR, thats just needless page turning poor design.

I think reach is going to interact with engagement range personally. The initiative thing seems to stack up pretty oddly.

 

People are looking at the meteor hammer and think "well it used to give bonus initiative, so reach must be that".

 

But the Pheonix spear also has reach. Are we saying they thought Pheonix terminators needed 3 sources of +1 initiative and should strike at initiative 7? That's such an odd design choice; 5 is the breakpoint for fighting power armour and 2 for fighting terminators. You don't need initiative 7 on ap 3 to fight anything in the game lol.

 

The implication from the leaked traitor rules is that it does at least interact with Initiative in some manner (if it does something else too I don't know). The following is an excerpt from the Skill Unmatched rule:

 

Perfect Offense: A models affected by Perfect Offense must resolve all attacks made with Melee weapons at an AP of 1, regardless of the weapon’s profile, but must resolve their attacks in Initiative Step 1 (this can be modified by the Legiones Astartes (Emperor’s Children special rule) but not by other special rules that modify Initiative, such as the Reach (X) special rule).

[SkimaskMohawk]

Definitely missed that, but very weird on the need for initiative 7 for Pheonix guard and 6 for palatines.

[Balthamal]

Unless unwieldy is being changed from Initiative 1 to -1 to hit. Then fists and hammers are going to be all the rage.

[TheTrans]

I'd love unwieldy to be an initiative debuff (say -3 or something), never has made any sense that super fast bro, hits as slow as super slow bro with the same weapon.  

Edited March 27, 2022 by TheTrans

[Slips]

AFAIK, Concussive has changed from dropping the target to I1 after taking a wound to -WS per number in brackets; so that Perturabo leak that has Forgebreaker at Concussive (5) means a -5WS penalty if hit if Im not mistaken. 

 

Which makes Astartes Shotguns who have Concussive (1) a bit tastier.

 

Thunderhammers are also changing to having Sunder instead of concussive?

[DesuVult]

AFAIK, Concussive has changed from dropping the target to I1 after taking a wound to -WS per number in brackets; so that Perturabo leak that has Forgebreaker at Concussive (5) means a -5WS penalty if hit if Im not mistaken.

 

Which makes Astartes Shotguns who have Concussive (1) a bit tastier.

 

Thunderhammers are also changing to having Sunder instead of concussive?

I think this makes Perturabo one of the few primarchs able to kill other primarchs still.

[Darkwrath121]

 

AFAIK, Concussive has changed from dropping the target to I1 after taking a wound to -WS per number in brackets; so that Perturabo leak that has Forgebreaker at Concussive (5) means a -5WS penalty if hit if Im not mistaken.

 

Which makes Astartes Shotguns who have Concussive (1) a bit tastier.

 

Thunderhammers are also changing to having Sunder instead of concussive?

I think this makes Perturabo one of the few primarchs able to kill other primarchs still.

Primarchs being immune to statline modifiers now means that it won't affect them, to be fair. That and Pert finally dropping to WS7.

[Slips]

If anything it means anything but Primarchs will have decent shots at taking eachother out in Melee.

 

Otherwise your only real option is to shoot them off the board and hope for the best or chuck a Knight or larger at them.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

AFAIK, Concussive has changed from dropping the target to I1 after taking a wound to -WS per number in brackets; so that Perturabo leak that has Forgebreaker at Concussive (5) means a -5WS penalty if hit if Im not mistaken. 

 

Which makes Astartes Shotguns who have Concussive (1) a bit tastier.

 

Thunderhammers are also changing to having Sunder instead of concussive?

 

huh, I hadn't seen that anywhere, I'd been operating on the assumption that the value in brackets was what the wounded unit/ model's initiative would be reduced by, meaning a unit firing with shotguns and then charging would get a nice buff from striking first, making shotgun recon marines with just bolt pistols as melee weapons more interesting, as they could be used to mock up small units without getting butchered in melee

Edited March 28, 2022 by Iron Hands Fanatic

[Slips]

 

AFAIK, Concussive has changed from dropping the target to I1 after taking a wound to -WS per number in brackets; so that Perturabo leak that has Forgebreaker at Concussive (5) means a -5WS penalty if hit if Im not mistaken. 

 

Which makes Astartes Shotguns who have Concussive (1) a bit tastier.

 

Thunderhammers are also changing to having Sunder instead of concussive?

 

huh, I hadn't seen that anywhere, I'd been operating on the assumption that the value in brackets was what the wounded unit/ model's initiative would be reduced by, meaning a unit firing with shotguns and then charging would get a nice buff from striking first, making shotgun recon marines with just bolt pistols as melee weapons more interesting, as they could be used to mock up small units without getting butchered in melee

 

Reducing Weapon skill kinda does that by making the unit charging harder to hit and making it easier for them to hit with the change to the Weapon Skill chart.

[Gorgoff]

Is it just me or does a lot of the leaks sound a tad to complicated? Too much of "you get +1 of this and -2 of that but keep in mind you have so and so special rule which makes this modifier". It strikes me as somewhat contrary to every Design choice GW made the last years. I can already see the puzzled looks in the faces of a lot of players I know who are already some times lost on how to work through initiative phases an close combat for example and they should have all of these reactions and modifiers and a big pile of new differrnt weapon traits and so fort in their minds?

I see a lot of them having trouble with that which makes me wonder if that is what we really get in the end. I don't mind though. All in all it sounds uninteresting and apart from the really cool trailer this reveal didn't hype me at all. And even the trailer is somewhat sterile and obviously a commercial for the upcoming box and nothing more. A little bit to much "MK6 IS THE :cuss NOW!" for my taste.