State of the Union (Heresy)

[bushman101]

Just to mention it, Day of Revelations for BA made it to where I couldn't refuse challenges. I would guess there were other RoW that had the same restriction?

 

I don't have a stake in Sigismund. Just curious on people's take.

 

Of course, that could change in the new edition.

 

(We haven't really seen anything for BA, have we?)

[Noserenda]

Yeah the challenge rules have never yet managed to avoid being gamey and exploitable as hell. Honestly id rather they were just a special rule for certain appropriate characters.

[Slips]

 

 

But Skimask, what if there is a punishment for refusing a challenge in the new rules?

I'm really rusty on this interaction but with Siggy getting a 3+ Precision Strikes that, to me, would allow him to still try and merc whoever decided to challenge dodge him the only thing that wouldn't be 'on' in this case is him forcing invuln rerolls.

No multiquote on mobile so this is my ghetto version.

 

@Petitioner I hope there is. Challenges got lifted out of fantasy, but badly. In fantasy you basically set aside the challengers; they were immune to the combat, but you could overkill your opponent for bonus combat resolution that was hard to get elsewhere. Refusing a challenge meant the leadership value and supporting rules couldn't be used for the model (in addition to them not fighting). Losing ld 10, stubborn or battle standard bearer bonuses to combat res was a huge blow.

 

6th 40k just had the challenge lock, but none of the overkill. So you could challenge a primarch and waste a round of their attacks (except angron). Or you could tank a squad on the objective for a while and disrupt scoring.

You only lost the LD value of the character though, so it was only the output that you were concerned about for refusing.

 

7th saw how that was being abused and allowed overspill into and out of the challenge. But still, no penalty other than no fighting and no leadership value.

 

They definitely need to rethink what the purpose of a challenge is, other than sniping an extra attack off a seargent. The stakes are incredibly low for both sides and it's turned the mechanic more into a "you can't focus down my character for one round because he was in a challenge" type of thing.

 

Bringing this back around to sigismund, I'm not sure what they could do to ever make you want to accept a challenge from him. Especially with your warlord.

 

@slips if the supporting mechanics remains the same then ya, you can still allocate hits to them with precision strikes, but they'd also get look out sir on a 2+. You also would deny them the activation of the warlord trait even if he did just precision them out, and VPs win you the game.

 

Bolded part especially but this depends on your legion, warlord and RoW choices. You might not have the choice but to issue/accept.

 

If youre not in such a position, great. If you are, well, not so great.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Slips

[Scammel]

 

Well I'll really break it down for you.

 

Sigismund has 5 WS 7, STR 6 attacks on the charge. It's a relatively low amount of attacks, that average 3.3 wounds to meq, 1.6 wounds to teq/custodes, 3.3 wounds to thallax, 2 wounds to vorax and ~1.3 wounds to Castellax/domitars. To guestimate points killed on the charge:

 

-most elite meq models tend to cost ~30 points. So maximum ~90 points of meq. Minimum is like 30 points.

-most terminators cost ~45 points after upgrades. So ~45 points.

-thallax are 40 points each (their upgrades are a flat cost for the unit so we'll leave it there). So 120 points.  

-vorax are 65 points each base. So minimum 130 points.

-castellax are 105 base. So minimum 105 points.

-domitars are 175 base. So minimum of 175 points.

 

I think our assessments of value must be wildly divergent, because you're trying to convince us that this guy isn't worth it when he's clearing 90pts of guys on average in one round of combat in your worst-case scenario. 1.6 TEQ frequently rounds up to 4 wounds worth of Terminators in new money. Khârn is clearly excellent, but that doesn't mean Sigismund isn't several degrees meaner than he was against a far larger range of targets than ever before.

[StrangerOrders]

I will say that I am mildly annoyed at the leaks in the sense of them randomly taking Jump Packs away from Palatines... not least of which because that means I am going to have to spend alot of time with a hobby saw on one of my favorite units...

 

Anyone think that was just an oddity of the Phase One sheets or is it likely to stick because the kit doesnt come with them? It just feels really draconian.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

As I'm coming into 30k new, I'm still getting used to the rules and how things are formatted etc. Just to double check, on the leaked IH rules it says that I can upgrade 1 Praetor in Cataphractii to have Gorgon armour.

My question is: Do a squad of Gorgon Terminators get the rules for their armour from this page (279)? As they've already got the 2+, 5++, 5+++ on their "datasheet" do they have the Blind ability or does that only apply if they have a Gorgon armoured Praetor in the unit?

The rule for Gorgon Terminator Armor says "Additionally, at the end of any Phase in which a model with Gorgon Terminator Armor has passed at least one Armour Save or Invulnerable save" (Bolted for emphasis).

 

Their wargear says that they have "Gorgon Terminator Armor" so my interpretation is that they also get the Blind effect, as well as immunity to it (and I think that's an upgrade, IIRC from the last ruleset everyone, including friendly units, had to take a Blind test.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Finally being able to take Gorgon TDA on characters is really nice, also big fan of it also conferring 5+ FNP as part of its profile - I am curious as to whether the boarding shield rules have changed given Immortals can take bayonets/ chain bayonets which have the 2-handed special rule

 

Anyone else think Iron Hands seem really strong? Any vehicle in a list with Ferrus will have a 4+ IWND.

Not to mention their new assault graviton weapons.

 

I'm very happy with their updates, getting assault 2 graviton weapons is a really nice touch - I do think their traits are strong, but they still have a hard counter in the form of melee build lists, where their -1 str to incoming attacks doesn't apply (IWND still helps vehicles but they're in a tough place with melee anyway)

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Bringing this back around to sigismund, I'm not sure what they could do to ever make you want to accept a challenge from him. Especially with your warlord.

 

 

Bolded part especially but this depends on your legion, warlord and RoW choices. You might not have the choice but to issue/accept.

 

If youre not in such a position, great. If you are, well, not so great.

 

 

From a quick review of stuff (the traitor phase 1, ultra+IF+IH phase 3, Iron Hands Fanatic's transcript), nothing forces challenges. There's a bunch that gives bonuses during a challenge and incentivize them, but nothing lie 1st edition's requirements. Obviously if more info changes things, I'll reassess.  

 

 

 

 

Well I'll really break it down for you.

 

Sigismund has 5 WS 7, STR 6 attacks on the charge. It's a relatively low amount of attacks, that average 3.3 wounds to meq, 1.6 wounds to teq/custodes, 3.3 wounds to thallax, 2 wounds to vorax and ~1.3 wounds to Castellax/domitars. To guestimate points killed on the charge:

 

-most elite meq models tend to cost ~30 points. So maximum ~90 points of meq. Minimum is like 30 points.

-most terminators cost ~45 points after upgrades. So ~45 points.

-thallax are 40 points each (their upgrades are a flat cost for the unit so we'll leave it there). So 120 points.  

-vorax are 65 points each base. So minimum 130 points.

-castellax are 105 base. So minimum 105 points.

-domitars are 175 base. So minimum of 175 points.

 

I think our assessments of value must be wildly divergent, because you're trying to convince us that this guy isn't worth it when he's clearing 90pts of guys on average in one round of combat in your worst-case scenario. 1.6 TEQ frequently rounds up to 4 wounds worth of Terminators in new money. Khârn is clearly excellent, but that doesn't mean Sigismund isn't several degrees meaner than he was against a far larger range of targets than ever before.

 

 

My worst case scenario is 30 points of bolter marines. It's also worth noting (again, for the third time) that the generic, TAC praetor that you can currently build for less averages higher results in that category. 

 

I also don't round up or down unless the numbers are really trivial, as it's dishonest and arbitrary. Sigismund kills 1.66 terminators on the charge. The TAC-praetor kills 1.91 without master-crafting; with it he kills 2.19. That's almost a 25% difference that's lost  on the mastercrafted end if you just round it. And again, proving that you get more for less against marines  with a TAC-praetor. 

 

And I definitely agree that Sigismund is better than he used to be. I said as much in my first post on the matter last page. But he's still outclassed against the majority of targets and has a warlord trait that's non-functional. 

[Brofist]

Slips I'm sorry for the hot take, but Sigismund is still bad. He's better than he was, but if he was 50 points cheaper I still think he'd be overpriced.

a take so hot it burnt the sun

[Astartes Consul]

So looking again, Suzerains have had a slight drop in points but, if this is all carried forward, will become 2W and not lose any of their other options etc. Obviously we don't know how this matches up with the meta, but its potentially quite a punchy development.

 

What are people's thoughts on the Praetorian Breachers?

 

Also, what I wouldn't give for the contents page to be leaked - if a play test document has one - so we can all stop worrying about which units may or may not have been cut...

[Brofist]

Immortals staying 1w is a bit of a bummer, though we don't know what bitter duty does. Seems the breacher tax remains unless boarding shields got a rework.

[StrangerOrders]

So looking again, Suzerains have had a slight drop in points but, if this is all carried forward, will become 2W and not lose any of their other options etc. Obviously we don't know how this matches up with the meta, but its potentially quite a punchy development.

 

What are people's thoughts on the Praetorian Breachers?

 

Also, what I wouldn't give for the contents page to be leaked - if a play test document has one - so we can all stop worrying about which units may or may not have been cut...

Looking at the rules, I have no idea who the Praetorians are there for. They are competing with the Suzerains for the crowded elite slot and are clearly meant to be the use for the Breacher upgrade kit.

 

But from a fluff pov, it takes away from the idea of ultras fielding large tercio-esque units due to being both elite and limited to the same size as Suzerains. From a mechanical standpoint they put you in a position of picking between units which are very similar, made more confusing by the idea that the best Praetorians become Suzerains... idk, it seems weird to me.

 

Make them a troop, tune down their stats and make the squad 10-20 as an alternative to normal breachers and then it makes sense to me.

[Stix]

Immortals staying 1w is a bit of a bummer, though we don't know what bitter duty does. Seems the breacher tax remains unless boarding shields got a rework.

Also, 2A, Ld10 Stubborn sounds sweet. Volkites go back to 5pts per matine tho.

[Astartes Consul]

 

So looking again, Suzerains have had a slight drop in points but, if this is all carried forward, will become 2W and not lose any of their other options etc. Obviously we don't know how this matches up with the meta, but its potentially quite a punchy development.

 

What are people's thoughts on the Praetorian Breachers?

 

Also, what I wouldn't give for the contents page to be leaked - if a play test document has one - so we can all stop worrying about which units may or may not have been cut...

Looking at the rules, I have no idea who the Praetorians are there for. They are competing with the Suzerains for the crowded elite slot and are clearly meant to be the use for the Breacher upgrade kit.

 

But from a fluff pov, it takes away from the idea of ultras fielding large tercio-esque units due to being both elite and limited to the same size as Suzerains. From a mechanical standpoint they put you in a position of picking between units which are very similar, made more confusing by the idea that the best Praetorians become Suzerains... idk, it seems weird to me.

 

Make them a troop, tune down their stats and make the squad 10-20 as an alternative to normal breachers and then it makes sense to me.

 

 

 

They'll cut through power armoured troops I guess, so I'm assuming they'll largely only be seen in ZM games (assuming ZM will still be a thing?)

[Brofist]

 

Immortals staying 1w is a bit of a bummer, though we don't know what bitter duty does. Seems the breacher tax remains unless boarding shields got a rework.

Also, 2A, Ld10 Stubborn sounds sweet. Volkites go back to 5pts per matine tho.

 

 

yeah but then you go look at 2w gorgons that cost less points...

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'm wondering how they will handle Indomitus terminator armor. I'd be down for them leaning into that a bit more like they did bringing MK VI in, and especially making a Legion Indomitus Terminator kit.

[TheTrans]

I'm wondering how they will handle Indomitus terminator armor. I'd be down for them leaning into that a bit more like they did bringing MK VI in, and especially making a Legion Indomitus Terminator kit.

Got bad news for you man, I'm getting a feeling it ain't happening. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

I'm wondering how they will handle Indomitus terminator armor. I'd be down for them leaning into that a bit more like they did bringing MK VI in, and especially making a Legion Indomitus Terminator kit.

Got bad news for you man, I'm getting a feeling it ain't happening. 

 

I mean, it's not the end of the world if they don't have rules for it, can just align on one of Cataphractii or Tartaros for the rules to run as, an actual kit is just wishlisting.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

I'm wondering how they will handle Indomitus terminator armor. I'd be down for them leaning into that a bit more like they did bringing MK VI in, and especially making a Legion Indomitus Terminator kit.

 

given I'm making custom rules for them, I suspect the division between cataphractii & tartaros profiles is to do with their movement stats/ abilities, and the reason only Iron Hands Cataphractii centurions/ praetors can swap for gorgon TDA has to do with that, keeping the lower movement stat for balance

 

so the way I'll be doing it is making the option to switch to different patterns of terminator armour specifically available to different units based on their movement stats:

* indomitus & aegis TDA: available to tartaros squads/ command squads/ centurions /praetors

* saturnine & arkonak TDA: available to cataphractii squads/ command squads/ centurions /praetors

[TimeHoopin]

Has there been any mention of the Land Raider Phobos in the leaked documents? So far I've only seen the Proteus, Spartan and Rhino referenced as dedicated transports. 

[Slips]

Has there been any mention of the Land Raider Phobos in the leaked documents? So far I've only seen the Proteus, Spartan and Rhino referenced as dedicated transports. 

Upgrade to the Proteus to give it a ramp.

[jaxom]

Leaked Ultramarines pages mentioned Shattered Legions in a fluff portion. I wonder if they’ll get rules at launch.

[Armillion]

 

Has there been any mention of the Land Raider Phobos in the leaked documents? So far I've only seen the Proteus, Spartan and Rhino referenced as dedicated transports. 

Upgrade to the Proteus to give it a ramp.

 

Wait, really!? I guessed this was the case but still seemed weird since the resin Proteus has no ramp.  So this maybe gives credit to the rumor floating around that the plastic Spartan may be a dual build kit with the proteus.

 

So perhaps with such a kit either you can build a proteus, a proteus with the spartan-style assault ramp, or you can opt for the long version by slapping some extra road wheels and hull in between to make a spartan?

[MichaelCarmine]

 

 

Has there been any mention of the Land Raider Phobos in the leaked documents? So far I've only seen the Proteus, Spartan and Rhino referenced as dedicated transports. 

Upgrade to the Proteus to give it a ramp.

 

Wait, really!? I guessed this was the case but still seemed weird since the resin Proteus has no ramp.  So this maybe gives credit to the rumor floating around that the plastic Spartan may be a dual build kit with the proteus.

 

So perhaps with such a kit either you can build a proteus, a proteus with the spartan-style assault ramp, or you can opt for the long version by slapping some extra road wheels and hull in between to make a spartan?

 

Unless they seriously bump up the proteus's proportions, thats not gonna happen.

[Beerhammer]

I am missing something, can someone please PM/DM me the link to these new leaked rules. Thank you so much.