State of the Union (Heresy)

[Slips]

Do you think boxnaughts are part of the Contemptor datasheet then? I guess at the end of the day, they're on a 60mm base with a similar loadout, so we can run them as that.

 

I understand the Mortis/Cortus almost certainly are folded in as such.

Nah nothing drastic like that.

[Spagunk]

As a boxnought player, I still hold out hope that they're included in the real legion lists; just wasn't in the scope of play testing. Edited April 1, 2022 by Spagunk

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea they made new units for book 9 with full knowledge they were getting cut. 

 

Crusade was released in September 2020; the original picture of the box set came out somewhere of spring 2021.

 

I really don't think the exemplary battle units are going to make the cut at this rate guys. Not if they were willing to bait and switch with Crusade as hard as they did. 

[TheTrans]

Yea they made new units for book 9 with full knowledge they were getting cut. 

 

Crusade was released in September 2020; the original picture of the box set came out somewhere of spring 2021.

 

I really don't think the exemplary battle units are going to make the cut at this rate guys. Not if they were willing to bait and switch with Crusade as hard as they did. 

I think the exemplary battle units is an even :cusstier move, putting actually converted models out there...going tacitly 'we encourage you to go off the reservation with cool things that we don't have a boxed set for'.... then go and strip everything they don't have an SKU for (and then some!).

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Removing boxnaughts is just dumb, people were going to buy your new plastic Contemptor anyway GW, but why get rid of the Contemptor Mortis?

 

Anyway since we're apparently not allowed to see the doccos ourselves, I'd appreciate it if the folk who have could clarify what's up with Destroyers? I've seen vague references to two different subtypes.

 

One thing people need to consider with some of these units going away is if their profile could have been consolidated into another and its special bonus made into an upgrade.

If you have any information then share it instead of playing coy. GW already knows who spilled the beans, you don’t have to protect anyone.

[Calshan]

Blood Angels leak has me... disheartened.  I hope that is not the final version.  One of the things about 30k Blood Angels vs 40k Blood Angels rules that I very much appreciated is that the Legion Trait did not shoehorn me into playing a Jump Pack Assault list.  I play a Legion Recon Company list, and could rest easy knowing that I would still be getting the benefit of my Legion Trait even if my squads were charged, or in a drawn out assault.

 

But with the leaked trait, I may as well make a Jump Pack Assault list, like all the others (Seriously, even in 40k, the fluff says the Chapter's squads are mostly Tacticals, but you wouldn't know that by looking at player's lists).  Someone mentioned a few pages ago that Sanguinius made a Legion of Savages into a Host of Angels.  A Host of Angels is what I have felt like I was playing.  Now it feels like I have to play them like a Host of Savages if I want to get any bonus out of my Trait.  And only for the first turn; we get sleepy after a few moments of battle.

 

Blades of Perdition got a huge nerf, as well.  Pay 5 points for your power weapon to loose one attack (it's still Two Handed, no matter what form it is in) but do 2 Wounds with per successful Wound Roll is not near as good as it was before.  Sort of a Sidegrade instead of an Upgrade.

 

 

As to the loss of the Boxnaught,....ugh, I am half way finished painting one.  Just staring at it now, with zero drive to finish it, if I won't be able to field it.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Calshan

[Slips]

 

 

Removing boxnaughts is just dumb, people were going to buy your new plastic Contemptor anyway GW, but why get rid of the Contemptor Mortis?

 

Anyway since we're apparently not allowed to see the doccos ourselves, I'd appreciate it if the folk who have could clarify what's up with Destroyers? I've seen vague references to two different subtypes.

One thing people need to consider with some of these units going away is if their profile could have been consolidated into another and its special bonus made into an upgrade.

If you have any information then share it instead of playing coy. GW already knows who spilled the beans, you don’t have to protect anyone.

 

I only make statements in certainties when I've seen the hard physical proof of that statement being true; otherwise its just what I've been told my dude. So don't assume I know more than I actually do.

[Dagoth Ur]

 

Removed stuff

Consuls

-Warmonger

-Nullificator

Nullificators

Boxnoughts

Contemptor Cortus

Mortis Boxnaught

Contemptor Mortis

Hussar Squad

Sky Seekers

Attack Bikes(?)

Tarantulas

Primaris Lightning

Sky-Slayers

Land Raider Achilles

Land Riader Achilles Alpha

Legion Basilik

Legion Medusa

Caestus Assault Ram

Legion Malcador

 

PoW LoWs

Baneblade Family

Macharius Family

Malcador Family

 

Actual Book LoW Drops

Stormblade

Thunderhawk Transporter

Big stupid terrain piece

 

Legion Specific (that we've seen in leaks etc so is spotty at best, also factor in exemplary battle units are goneski as well)

 

Dark Angels

Firewing Enigmatus Cabal

Ironwing Excindio Automata

Mardruk Sedras

Farith Redloss

 

EC

Ancient Rylaanor

 

IW

Iron Havocs

Golg

Vhalen

Dreygur

 

White Scars

Falcons Claws (probably)

Tsolmon Khan (?)

 

SW

(?)

 

IF

(?)

 

NL

Mawdrym

Kheron Ophion

Makrid Thole

 

BA

Aster Crohne

 

IH

Castrmen Orth

Autek Mor

Shadrak Meduson

 

World Eaters

Shabran Darr

Gahlan Surlak (by extension Inductii)

 

Ultras

Fulmentarus (?)

Locutarus Storm (?)

Honored Telemchrus

 

DG

Crysos Morturg

Durak Rask

 

1ksons

Ammatara Cabal

 

 

SoH

Tybalt Marr

 

WB

Hol Beloth

 

Sallies

Cassian Dracos

Dracos Reborn

Chaplain Nomus

Xiaphas Jurr

 

RG

Darkwing Gunship

Alvarex Maun

Kaedus Nex

 

AL

Skorr

Blackshields

Black Shield Reaver Lord

BS Marauder Squads

 

Good chance I've missed stuff/put stuff on the list that has been confirmed, but its a start.

P.S. I'm not buying units were dropped to 'reduce book load' when we have pages for 'Praetor', 'Praetor in Tartaros Armour' etc...

 

Brutal :(

I am genuinely trying to hold off with judgement until I see the actual book, but if this is true, then my interest to play this new edition has been cut down by at least 75%. No boxnaughts? Some legions like the sallies and IW losing their whole roster of non-primarch characters? That's a massive pile of nonsense and whoever wrote that should've had the pen taken out of their hand last week.

[Cris R]

Blood Angels leak has me... disheartened. I hope that is not the final version. One of the things about 30k Blood Angels vs 40k Blood Angels rules that I very much appreciated is that the Legion Trait did not shoehorn me into playing a Jump Pack Assault list. I play a Legion Recon Company list, and could rest easy knowing that I would still be getting the benefit of my Legion Trait even if my squads were charged, or in a drawn out assault.

 

But with the leaked trait, I may as well make a Jump Pack Assault list, like all the others (Seriously, even in 40k, the fluff says the Chapter's squads are mostly Tacticals, but you wouldn't know that by looking at player's lists). Someone mentioned a few pages ago that Sanguinius made a Legion of Savages into a Host of Angels. A Host of Angels is what I have felt like I was playing. Now it feels like I have to play them like a Host of Savages if I want to get any bonus out of my Trait. And only for the first turn; we get sleepy after a few moments of battle.

 

Blades of Perdition got a huge nerf, as well. Pay 5 points for your power weapon to loose one attack (it's still Two Handed, no matter what form it is in) but do 2 Wounds with per successful Wound Roll is not near as good as it was before. Sort of a Sidegrade instead of an Upgrade.

 

 

As to the loss of the Boxnaught,....ugh, I am half way finished painting one. Just staring at it now, with zero drive to finish it, if I won't be able to field it.

This is why I also feel frustrated by the new Legion's rule, especially when I wanted other units to charge me knowing full well I might actually come out on top. That said, I actually think the new package of Blood Angels rules and rites encourage far more diverse lists, especially when they don't have limitations on vehicles and Day of Sorrows leans totally into the footslogging/tank set up that lets you run more Crimson Paladins - which feel more viable as options now - as non-compulsory troops. Our legion-specific units will always lean towards deep striking but the Paladins, Dawnbreakers, and, from what it sounds like, Ralderon, came out in decent to good shape. We just need to see where the Tears and Dominion’s updated rules land.

 

The one thing I would have done differently is shelved the name "Day of Revelation" for the second RoW, called it something else entirely, and spent some more time working out a better package of benefits. At this point, it's an entirely different beast that clearly wants to push players to build out more balanced lists and Specialist should have made the bold move and created a new RoW to get us there without the baggage of having to live up to the old DoR that was awesome.

 

I also run three Boxnoughts in my lists, so that's going to be a hard loss to take. I'll finish painting them in case they get new official rules or the Mournival guys come up with new sheets.

 

Also, thanks for the summary, Brofist. It sounds like the spirit of the Centurion/Centurion Plus modes finally appeared in final form with the newest set of rules, which sounds solid even if the final unit list has robbed the game of the esoteric quirks I liked about the first edition.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Cris R

[Brofist]

Like Slips is saying some of those units are rolled into other entries. You can build your own havocs now, for example. It's also not exactly clear what the deal is with legion specific units and characters. Others, like malcs, lightnings, and artillery are likely shifting from the LA army list to make the Imperial Army book more interesting.

 

It still sucks though and I totally get it. Half my favorite units and wargear are gone, some probably won't ever return. It's GW afterall.

[Bung]

Yep, that's a pretty good assessment. Considering there are almost no AP2 templates, it's very unlikely you'll get killed by blast.

Maybe we finally see some Melta Predators If its still Melta profile with 5" blast template.

[Claws and Effect]

The stuff being removed is brutal to my collection.

 

- Legit FW Achilles

- Primaris Lightning

- Shadowsword/Stormsword

- All the RG characters I kitbashed

 

And I'm not going to have the money to replace any of it with stuff that's still legal.

 

So, yeah. I'm fuming right now. If that list is accurate GW just effectively forced me out of the only part of the actual gameplay I still enjoyed. Because I will have no armor bigger than a Rhino.

[xxunphasedxx]

Blood Angels leak has me... disheartened.  I hope that is not the final version.  One of the things about 30k Blood Angels vs 40k Blood Angels rules that I very much appreciated is that the Legion Trait did not shoehorn me into playing a Jump Pack Assault list.  I play a Legion Recon Company list, and could rest easy knowing that I would still be getting the benefit of my Legion Trait even if my squads were charged, or in a drawn out assault.

 

But with the leaked trait, I may as well make a Jump Pack Assault list, like all the others (Seriously, even in 40k, the fluff says the Chapter's squads are mostly Tacticals, but you wouldn't know that by looking at player's lists).  Someone mentioned a few pages ago that Sanguinius made a Legion of Savages into a Host of Angels.  A Host of Angels is what I have felt like I was playing.  Now it feels like I have to play them like a Host of Savages if I want to get any bonus out of my Trait.  And only for the first turn; we get sleepy after a few moments of battle.

 

Blades of Perdition got a huge nerf, as well.  Pay 5 points for your power weapon to loose one attack (it's still Two Handed, no matter what form it is in) but do 2 Wounds with per successful Wound Roll is not near as good as it was before.  Sort of a Sidegrade instead of an Upgrade.

 

 

As to the loss of the Boxnaught,....ugh, I am half way finished painting one.  Just staring at it now, with zero drive to finish it, if I won't be able to field it.

 

This isn't even mentioning that World Eaters get our trait permanently by having chain axes and then their own legion trait on top of that. If giving Blood Angels +1 to wound score for more then the first turn is so broken, why do World Eaters gain almost the exact same benefit and more? (unless dealing with T7 + which is rare in marine fights). It really has me not looking forward to the release if this is the legion trait we are going to have. Again sorry for being a downer, the Blood Angel stuff I have seen is just such a let down to me personally. They say they are moving the game into more attrition based warfare and then take away the ability to fight attrition with the Blood Angels, just makes no sense to me.

Edited April 1, 2022 by xxunphasedxx

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

Blood Angels leak has me... disheartened. I hope that is not the final version. One of the things about 30k Blood Angels vs 40k Blood Angels rules that I very much appreciated is that the Legion Trait did not shoehorn me into playing a Jump Pack Assault list. I play a Legion Recon Company list, and could rest easy knowing that I would still be getting the benefit of my Legion Trait even if my squads were charged, or in a drawn out assault.

 

But with the leaked trait, I may as well make a Jump Pack Assault list, like all the others (Seriously, even in 40k, the fluff says the Chapter's squads are mostly Tacticals, but you wouldn't know that by looking at player's lists). Someone mentioned a few pages ago that Sanguinius made a Legion of Savages into a Host of Angels. A Host of Angels is what I have felt like I was playing. Now it feels like I have to play them like a Host of Savages if I want to get any bonus out of my Trait. And only for the first turn; we get sleepy after a few moments of battle.

 

Blades of Perdition got a huge nerf, as well. Pay 5 points for your power weapon to loose one attack (it's still Two Handed, no matter what form it is in) but do 2 Wounds with per successful Wound Roll is not near as good as it was before. Sort of a Sidegrade instead of an Upgrade.

 

 

As to the loss of the Boxnaught,....ugh, I am half way finished painting one. Just staring at it now, with zero drive to finish it, if I won't be able to field it.

This isn't even mentioning that World Eaters get our trait permanently by having chain axes and then their own legion trait on top of that. If giving Blood Angels +1 to wound score for more then the first turn is so broken, why do World Eaters gain almost the exact same benefit and more? (unless dealing with T7 + which is rare in marine fights). It really has me not looking forward to the release if this is the legion trait we are going to have. Again sorry for being a downer, the Blood Angel stuff I have seen is just such a let down to me personally. They say they are moving the game into more attrition based warfare and then take away the ability to fight attrition with the Blood Angels, just makes no sense to me.

My wife is going to be pretty upset with all that too.

[Cris R]

 

 

Blood Angels leak has me... disheartened. I hope that is not the final version. One of the things about 30k Blood Angels vs 40k Blood Angels rules that I very much appreciated is that the Legion Trait did not shoehorn me into playing a Jump Pack Assault list. I play a Legion Recon Company list, and could rest easy knowing that I would still be getting the benefit of my Legion Trait even if my squads were charged, or in a drawn out assault.

 

But with the leaked trait, I may as well make a Jump Pack Assault list, like all the others (Seriously, even in 40k, the fluff says the Chapter's squads are mostly Tacticals, but you wouldn't know that by looking at player's lists). Someone mentioned a few pages ago that Sanguinius made a Legion of Savages into a Host of Angels. A Host of Angels is what I have felt like I was playing. Now it feels like I have to play them like a Host of Savages if I want to get any bonus out of my Trait. And only for the first turn; we get sleepy after a few moments of battle.

 

Blades of Perdition got a huge nerf, as well. Pay 5 points for your power weapon to loose one attack (it's still Two Handed, no matter what form it is in) but do 2 Wounds with per successful Wound Roll is not near as good as it was before. Sort of a Sidegrade instead of an Upgrade.

 

 

As to the loss of the Boxnaught,....ugh, I am half way finished painting one. Just staring at it now, with zero drive to finish it, if I won't be able to field it.

This isn't even mentioning that World Eaters get our trait permanently by having chain axes and then their own legion trait on top of that. If giving Blood Angels +1 to wound score for more then the first turn is so broken, why do World Eaters gain almost the exact same benefit and more? (unless dealing with T7 + which is rare in marine fights). It really has me not looking forward to the release if this is the legion trait we are going to have. Again sorry for being a downer, the Blood Angel stuff I have seen is just such a let down to me personally. They say they are moving the game into more attrition based warfare and then take away the ability to fight attrition with the Blood Angels, just makes no sense to me.

But is the information about the WE rules from the first round of play testing or the third like the BA leaks? Because it sounds like things have been toned down since the first round. Does this sound correct to those following the leaks? And do we know if the legion supplementals will revise some of these rules down the road? Or just reprint them with fluff? Edited April 1, 2022 by Cris R

[xxunphasedxx]

 

 

Blood Angels leak has me... disheartened. I hope that is not the final version. One of the things about 30k Blood Angels vs 40k Blood Angels rules that I very much appreciated is that the Legion Trait did not shoehorn me into playing a Jump Pack Assault list. I play a Legion Recon Company list, and could rest easy knowing that I would still be getting the benefit of my Legion Trait even if my squads were charged, or in a drawn out assault.

 

But with the leaked trait, I may as well make a Jump Pack Assault list, like all the others (Seriously, even in 40k, the fluff says the Chapter's squads are mostly Tacticals, but you wouldn't know that by looking at player's lists). Someone mentioned a few pages ago that Sanguinius made a Legion of Savages into a Host of Angels. A Host of Angels is what I have felt like I was playing. Now it feels like I have to play them like a Host of Savages if I want to get any bonus out of my Trait. And only for the first turn; we get sleepy after a few moments of battle.

 

Blades of Perdition got a huge nerf, as well. Pay 5 points for your power weapon to loose one attack (it's still Two Handed, no matter what form it is in) but do 2 Wounds with per successful Wound Roll is not near as good as it was before. Sort of a Sidegrade instead of an Upgrade.

 

 

As to the loss of the Boxnaught,....ugh, I am half way finished painting one. Just staring at it now, with zero drive to finish it, if I won't be able to field it.

This isn't even mentioning that World Eaters get our trait permanently by having chain axes and then their own legion trait on top of that. If giving Blood Angels +1 to wound score for more then the first turn is so broken, why do World Eaters gain almost the exact same benefit and more? (unless dealing with T7 + which is rare in marine fights). It really has me not looking forward to the release if this is the legion trait we are going to have. Again sorry for being a downer, the Blood Angel stuff I have seen is just such a let down to me personally. They say they are moving the game into more attrition based warfare and then take away the ability to fight attrition with the Blood Angels, just makes no sense to me.

But is the information about the WE rules from the first round of play testing or the third like the BA leaks? Because it sounds like things have been toned down since the first round. Does this sound correct to those following the leaks?

 

 

If they take away chain axes from World Eaters then sure but I feel like that isn't going to be the case. Or if they nerf the rules for the chain axe but I don't just see it happening either. And chain axes aren't even their legion trait.

Edited April 1, 2022 by xxunphasedxx

[Cris R]

 

 

 

Blood Angels leak has me... disheartened. I hope that is not the final version. One of the things about 30k Blood Angels vs 40k Blood Angels rules that I very much appreciated is that the Legion Trait did not shoehorn me into playing a Jump Pack Assault list. I play a Legion Recon Company list, and could rest easy knowing that I would still be getting the benefit of my Legion Trait even if my squads were charged, or in a drawn out assault.

 

But with the leaked trait, I may as well make a Jump Pack Assault list, like all the others (Seriously, even in 40k, the fluff says the Chapter's squads are mostly Tacticals, but you wouldn't know that by looking at player's lists). Someone mentioned a few pages ago that Sanguinius made a Legion of Savages into a Host of Angels. A Host of Angels is what I have felt like I was playing. Now it feels like I have to play them like a Host of Savages if I want to get any bonus out of my Trait. And only for the first turn; we get sleepy after a few moments of battle.

 

Blades of Perdition got a huge nerf, as well. Pay 5 points for your power weapon to loose one attack (it's still Two Handed, no matter what form it is in) but do 2 Wounds with per successful Wound Roll is not near as good as it was before. Sort of a Sidegrade instead of an Upgrade.

 

 

As to the loss of the Boxnaught,....ugh, I am half way finished painting one. Just staring at it now, with zero drive to finish it, if I won't be able to field it.

This isn't even mentioning that World Eaters get our trait permanently by having chain axes and then their own legion trait on top of that. If giving Blood Angels +1 to wound score for more then the first turn is so broken, why do World Eaters gain almost the exact same benefit and more? (unless dealing with T7 + which is rare in marine fights). It really has me not looking forward to the release if this is the legion trait we are going to have. Again sorry for being a downer, the Blood Angel stuff I have seen is just such a let down to me personally. They say they are moving the game into more attrition based warfare and then take away the ability to fight attrition with the Blood Angels, just makes no sense to me.

But is the information about the WE rules from the first round of play testing or the third like the BA leaks? Because it sounds like things have been toned down since the first round. Does this sound correct to those following the leaks?

 

 

If they take away chain axes from World Eaters then sure but I feel like that isn't going to be the case. Or if they nerf the rules for the chain axe but I don't just see it happening either. And chain axes aren't even their legion trait.

 

 

I got it: Perdition Chain Axes. Boom, problem partially solved.

[Brofist]

I honestly don't expect the traitor rules to stay like what was leaked, compared to the later revised loyalist ones. I expect a few salty traitors once the toned-down versions appear and they realize what they could have had.

[Slips]

I honestly don't expect the traitor rules to stay like what was leaked, compared to the later revised loyalist ones. I expect a few salty traitors once the toned-down versions appear and they realize what they could have had.

Except for Horus; he's likely to retain his once per game "EVERYONE CAN REACT!" rule.

[D3L]

sad times 

I am beginning to suspect that it was all correct *whimpers in corner like Konrad*

Edited April 1, 2022 by D3L

[xxunphasedxx]

I agree, I think traitors will be heavily toned down on further playtesting but the rules for a weapon available to the entire legion (WE) is a direct upgrade that completely trivializes another legions trait. Now I would normally not be so vocal about this and would be fine to sit back and let the higher ups sort it out, but they are playtested rules and I just want to share my thoughts in hopes that, however unlikely, maybe someone sees and it makes a impact on the outcome. From what I have seen, even comparing to other loyalists, the Blood Angel Trait is just so mediocre and could use a little love is all I think most of us that are disappointed want.

[Gorgoff]

I go full on dental that anything of this is true.

Otherwise it would be too :cussed up.

In my group almost all of them said they won't play the game if that is true. They even consider selling their stuff before it comes because the ubits are now still valuable.

[The Scorpion]

There's ones I understand, like the Caestus which has been OOP, or the Malcador which hasn't been listed under Legionnes Astartes (on the web store) for a few years now. But I think cutting half the Dark Angels datasheets is rough, and I hope we see a further release then making up for that.

 

Their own 'special' FW characters from before that have no model I understand getting cut, but I don't want to see legions with no named characters when they haven't been graced with models yet.

 

Boxnaughts, Basilisks and Medusas I think are the most rough, because you can still straight buy them.

Why would FW remove basilisks and medusas? They have models!

 

Also, they could've made plastic MKIV boxnoughts instead of contemptors. But oh well, when have GeeDubs made sense, amirite?

[Fallen11]

 

There's ones I understand, like the Caestus which has been OOP, or the Malcador which hasn't been listed under Legionnes Astartes (on the web store) for a few years now. But I think cutting half the Dark Angels datasheets is rough, and I hope we see a further release then making up for that.

 

Their own 'special' FW characters from before that have no model I understand getting cut, but I don't want to see legions with no named characters when they haven't been graced with models yet.

 

Boxnaughts, Basilisks and Medusas I think are the most rough, because you can still straight buy them.

Why would FW remove basilisks and medusas? They have models!

 

Also, they could've made plastic MKIV boxnoughts instead of contemptors. But oh well, when have GeeDubs made sense, amirite?

 

Well, so do lightnings and achilles...but apparently...hey, at least lightning will become xiphon proxy and achilles will become LR...so yeah, medusa is a bit more difficult to proxy as something.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Fallen11

[The Scorpion]

Medusa guns can more or less be proxied as vindicators until the plastic ones come out. It's not that hard to believe that an XHUEG cannon is actually just a HUEG one.

 

The Basilisk is the real loser. No way to hide the compensation-pattern siege artillery gun, or disguise it as anything else.

But no one took those anyways because when the original AoD rules were first written, the Medusa was given Barrage, which was the only advantage the Basilisk had to justify it's lack of AP2 and S10 in normal 7th ed. Without it, it's just a more restricted medusa (fires poorly at short range) without AP2 that doesn't cause instant death on marines.