State of the Union (Heresy)

[Lord Krungharr]

For the jumping assault destroyers, me thinks magnetizing will be a must, as they come with dual bolt pistols, but can all pay 10 points for a pair of volkite serpenta, or 5 points for dual hand flamers...besides the 1/ 5 special weapons options, or power weapons.  That'll be a fun unit I think.

[infyrana]

For the jumping assault destroyers, me thinks magnetizing will be a must, as they come with dual bolt pistols, but can all pay 10 points for a pair of volkite serpenta, or 5 points for dual hand flamers...besides the 1/ 5 special weapons options, or power weapons.  That'll be a fun unit I think.

Sounds CHOOMING interesting!  For me, I gotta hope that A) they give us melee armed plastic kits, B) plastic jump packs for HH (though I can rip off some BA ones and re-use), and C) pistol options in weapon packs etc.  This would exclude the requirements for RAD Phage launchers or disintegrators etc.  I'm just hoping we'll see sufficient new plastic kits where we can at least kitbash this kinda thing, there really isn't enough MkIII plastic melee arms :)

 

Thanks for the replies all, sounds like I'll have fun working out how to kit them and not going overboard with investing too many points into a pseudo assault loadout.

[Cris R]

For the jumping assault destroyers, me thinks magnetizing will be a must, as they come with dual bolt pistols, but can all pay 10 points for a pair of volkite serpenta, or 5 points for dual hand flamers...besides the 1/ 5 special weapons options, or power weapons.  That'll be a fun unit I think.

 

This is definitely right. When Dominion's rules came out and folks saw that he needed to take a retinue of Destroyers with him as his warlord trait, we didn't know Jump Pack Destroyers would have significantly more options to make them more robust with CCW and firing. While I think a Power Fist on the Sarg makes the most sense, the option to take a Perdition Weapon for him is a nice, slightly cheaper option. So overall, Dominion does come out a little better with the new Destroyers.

[Brofist]

@MrZakalwe just wanna say I won't underplay the Suzerains- they are an excellent cataphractii terminator equivalent with WS5 and AP2 at initiative. They're gonna clown on a lot of things if they can get into melee. They can't do everything, so I don't think they're busted, but they are very good.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Suzerains with axes are solid, but they have a narrow use; fighting t4 2+ armour. Against a ws 4, 2+ target, suzerains average 8.25 wounds. 5 Rampagers with falax average 9.54. And they're 40 points cheaper. And they have direct synergy with their rites; crimson path allows them to discard the first wound taken per phase, so if both suzerains and rampagers fought fist terminators, then the Suzy's lose a model and the rampagers don't.

 

Suzerains are certainly not blowing anything out of the water with legatine axes.

Worth noting that although Rampagers may have a better damage output for a lower points cost, the Suzerains have much better staying power with both a 2+ armour save and a 4+/5+ invulnerable save with those snazzy shields. Not saying they're the best unit in the game now, but those extra points do go somewhere. I guess it just emphasises that terminators are the fairer comparison.

Oh ya, the defensive stats are very nice for the suzerains, and are why the rampagers cost less.

 

But the comparison is used because buddy claimed they weren't on the same level, and trying to illustrate the difference between units that do have various sources of synergies, and ones that don't; those rampagers can do more damage and, in some cases, be more resilient than the axe suzerains.

[MrZakalwe]

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Edited May 30, 2022 by MrZakalwe

[infyrana]

 

Oh ya, the defensive stats are very nice for the suzerains, and are why the rampagers cost less.

 

But the comparison is used because buddy claimed they weren't on the same level, and trying to illustrate the difference between units that do have various sources of synergies, and ones that don't; those rampagers can do more damage and, in some cases, be more resilient than the axe suzerains.

 

 

So when it comes to Infantry cost for cost what beats Suzerains in melee? Termis don't, Rampagers don't. Specialist termis don't.

 

I think Gal Vorbak do a good job, I guess? But they have their own problems. 

 

What's your parameters, are you taking into account legion specific rules and other factors like potential upgrades or transporting options ?

[Brofist]

Just straight up compare them to cataphracts, easy enough baseline. I feel talking legion specific rules is erroneous here because of course some will be better than others, but your default book options are the baseline.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So when it comes to Infantry cost for cost what beats Suzerains in melee? Termis don't, Rampagers don't. Specialist termis don't.

 

I think Gal Vorbak do a good job, I guess? But they have their own problems.

179 points of 7 rampagers in crimson path, charging, beat them on average.

 

First round the rampagers do 5 wounds to the suzerains 4.

 

Second round the rampagers do 2 wounds to the suzerains 2 wounds.

 

Third round the rampagers do 1.6 wounds to the suzerains 1.

 

Fourth round the rampagers do 1.6 wounds to the suzerains 0.

 

Fifth round, the rampagers do 1.6 wounds to the suzerains, finally finishing them off without relying on the 0.6 excess of the past three rounds of combat. The last suzerain still averages 0 wounds.

 

There's still 4 rampagers left.

 

And ya, the rampagers are 4 points more than the suzerains. But it's that or 18 points less, so well go with the very marginal and closer difference.

[BitsHammer]

So Power Fists sound good this edition, but what do people found about Lighting Claws?

 

Though if I'm honest: I'm more tempted by Chainglaives over Lighting Claws, but lighting claws look cool, especially on Cataphractii.

[Slips]

+2A for a pair instead of just +1 is a nice boost but its still S User, Ap3 Shred, Rending (6+). It depends on if the cost over a power sword + pistol/ccw is worth it for +1A and Shred or if you can get to a critical mass of attacks where you can reasonably expect some amount of rends from volume + shred rerolls.

[BitsHammer]

+2A for a pair instead of just +1 is a nice boost but its still S User, Ap3 Shred, Rending (6+). It depends on if the cost over a power sword + pistol/ccw is worth it for +1A and Shred or if you can get to a critical mass of attacks where you can reasonably expect some amount of rends from volume + shred rerolls.

Paired with Talent for Murder and Shred it seems like it's both easier to wound with them and the re-roll makes rending easier which is pretty neat. 

 

Specialist weapons kind of pushes them to being an all or nothing deal on a model though since they don't easily get bonus attacks otherwise.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

+2A for a pair instead of just +1 is a nice boost but its still S User, Ap3 Shred, Rending (6+). It depends on if the cost over a power sword + pistol/ccw is worth it for +1A and Shred or if you can get to a critical mass of attacks where you can reasonably expect some amount of rends from volume + shred rerolls.

Paired with Talent for Murder and Shred it seems like it's both easier to wound with them and the re-roll makes rending easier which is pretty neat.

 

Specialist weapons kind of pushes them to being an all or nothing deal on a model though since they don't easily get bonus attacks otherwise.

Night lords kinda have special math between ATfM and bloody murder lol.

 

It's worth noting that regardless of legion, a single lightning claw averages higher successful wounds than a power sword in most cases.

[bushman101]

 

For the jumping assault destroyers, me thinks magnetizing will be a must, as they come with dual bolt pistols, but can all pay 10 points for a pair of volkite serpenta, or 5 points for dual hand flamers...besides the 1/ 5 special weapons options, or power weapons.  That'll be a fun unit I think.

 

 

This is definitely right. When Dominion's rules came out and folks saw that he needed to take a retinue of Destroyers with him as his warlord trait, we didn't know Jump Pack Destroyers would have significantly more options to make them more robust with CCW and firing. While I think a Power Fist on the Sarg makes the most sense, the option to take a Perdition Weapon for him is a nice, slightly cheaper option. So overall, Dominion does come out a little better with the new Destroyers.

Sweet. Means my Angels Tears can pull double duty as Assault Destroyers

[Brofist]

Twin LC spam is a viable generalist build, if you can get it on the right unit

[tinpact]

+2A for a pair instead of just +1 is a nice boost but its still S User, Ap3 Shred, Rending (6+). It depends on if the cost over a power sword + pistol/ccw is worth it for +1A and Shred or if you can get to a critical mass of attacks where you can reasonably expect some amount of rends from volume + shred rerolls.

 

Blood Angels Terminators in a unit with a character with the traitor WLT can get 6(2 base +2 charge +2 paired?) attacks with double lightning claws on the charge, although it's a pretty hefty investment for a unit that's mostly a chaff blender - I suspect the extra attack would be better put to use with PFs.

 

 

Twin LC spam is a viable generalist build, if you can get it on the right unit

 

The issue is simply finding a unit that can take enough LCs for it to matter - I think they'd be good on a jump unit to zoom around the edge of the board and take out chaff but as far as generic units go, I think Termies are your only option, which sort of limits your viable targets. Without doing any math, it has to be at a point where rending at initiative is better than PFs and ID. So, either against 3+ and worse 1W bodies, or with sufficient volume of attacks that the return swing comes out in your favor. I suspect it'll be much better against non-LA armies where you can't necessarily rely on ID or you just need more attacks.

 

Justaerin with LCs are probably close to an ideal platform with WS5, base 3 attacks, furious charge, plus their legion trait to avoid getting knocked out by enemy ID.

Edited May 31, 2022 by tinpact

[infyrana]

With the change back to one shot combi-melta / combi-plasm guns, will the Vet squads full of them (+2x Specials) still be viable?

[LameBeard]

Back? When were they not one-shot? In the Playtest?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Back? When were they not one-shot? In the Playtest?

They've been one shot the entire time lol, I think they mean compared to 8th+.

 

Melta are definitely more worth it as combis than plasma now. Ignore armour on all wounding rolls, gets ap bonuses against vehicles, instant deaths all those multiwound models, and gets the melta bonus if you're close enough.

[valeravanshot]

With the change back to one shot combi-melta / combi-plasm guns, will the Vet squads full of them (+2x Specials) still be viable?

There are so many strong 2w 2+ squads now that 5 combi meltas for 165p for sure will be viable. On the other hand going into 12' melta range in Movement phase will trigger a reaction and your target can just run away(if they didn't spend their Movement phase reaction elsewhere). There are some absolutely crazy combi melta units out there like AL Headhunters (they can Infiltrate then Scout move into 11'  range (LA: AL  is -2' for reactions too, so your target won't run) and then they blast it with BS5 combi meltas with Presicion Strikes 4+, all that for 150p - thats just nuts)

[infyrana]

 

Back? When were they not one-shot? In the Playtest?

They've been one shot the entire time lol, I think they mean compared to 8th+.

 

Melta are definitely more worth it as combis than plasma now. Ignore armour on all wounding rolls, gets ap bonuses against vehicles, instant deaths all those multiwound models, and gets the melta bonus if you're close enough.

 

 

Yep, it is very likely I have been mixing 8th or other to HH - I had thought they went from single use per game to usable each turn in HH.  But hey, since I only model and haven't played in many years (though I still plan to change that), it's no surprise I'm not up to date hehe :)

 

Looks like I have a lot of converting to do, thank you!

 

 

 

With the change back to one shot combi-melta / combi-plasm guns, will the Vet squads full of them (+2x Specials) still be viable?

There are so many strong 2w 2+ squads now that 5 combi meltas for 165p for sure will be viable. On the other hand going into 12' melta range in Movement phase will trigger a reaction and your target can just run away(if they didn't spend their Movement phase reaction elsewhere). There are some absolutely crazy combi melta units out there like AL Headhunters (they can Infiltrate then Scout move into 11'  range (LA: AL  is -2' for reactions too, so your target won't run) and then they blast it with BS5 combi meltas with Presicion Strikes 4+, all that for 150p - thats just nuts)

 

Thank you for the reply and welcome to the forums! :)

 

Yeah some of the sneaky stuff is pretty tasty, sadly AL is not my legion(s) of choice, nearest I'd get is a small RG contingent.  Good spot on the Reaction triggers, haven't done enough reading into them yet.

[sarabando]

just found out that Ultras lost their missile terminators :( there goes that idea, they also lost the storm squad which kills off one of my already finished units :( i really hate this no mini no rules BS its so anti what GW used to be like. 

[roryokane]

just found out that Ultras lost their missile terminators there goes that idea, they also lost the storm squad which kills off one of my already finished units i really hate this no mini no rules BS its so anti what GW used to be like. 

I remember when Dark Eldar Scourges were literally converted miniatures in the Codex (with a disclaimer stating as much!). 

[dicebod]

just found out that Ultras lost their missile terminators :( there goes that idea, they also lost the storm squad which kills off one of my already finished units :( i really hate this no mini no rules BS its so anti what GW used to be like.

This unit will likely be in the expanded PDF.

[WrathOfTheLion]

just found out that Ultras lost their missile terminators there goes that idea, they also lost the storm squad which kills off one of my already finished units i really hate this no mini no rules BS its so anti what GW used to be like. 

Need to hold our horsies until we find out what all is getting placed in supplementary PDFs.

 

My guess given the wording in the book is that units with model support go in the Liber books, and units without model support are separated out in the expanded PDF. Skimask posted the quote for the paragraph earlier somewhere, I can't find it though.