State of the Union (Heresy)

[Gorgoff]

.

I always found the scale weird, with how a sword that cuts through power armor like butter does not so much as knick the paint on Artificer Armor. Artificer/Terminator armor should be much better, but like 16%-50% better, not 99 to the 9th power better.

If I sharpen a stick I can thrust it through your shirt into your body. If you wear a breastplate I won't make a scratch.

That's the AP system in a nutshell.

Modifiers to armor are not more realistic. It's just different. Both systems are an abstract of reality and have their merits, but AP is closer to reality then modifiers to be honest. You punch through or you don't. It simplifies how real armor and weapons work but it is in principle just like that.

 

@skimaskmohawk: Ah, the 5th wound allocation. I remember that and really liked it.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Gorgoff

[Dark Legionnare]

 

.

I always found the scale weird, with how a sword that cuts through power armor like butter does not so much as knick the paint on Artificer Armor. Artificer/Terminator armor should be much better, but like 16%-50% better, not 99 to the 9th power better.

If a sharpen a stick I can thrust it through your shirt into your body. If you wear a breastplate I won't make a scratch.

That's the AP system in a nutshell.

Modifiers to armor are not more realistic. It's just different. Both systems are an abstract of reality and have their merits, but AP is closer to reality then modifiers to be honest. You punch through or you don't. It simplifies how real armor and weapons work but it is in principle just like that.

 

@skimaskmohawk: Ah, the 5th wound allocation. I remember that and really liked it.

 

5th Ed wound allocation lead to insane shenanigans like GK paladin blobs that could suffer (I'm probably wrong on this, since it's been so long) I think... 10 wounds before a single model died? There were 9 total weapon combos possible, making 9 distinct models, and then once one of the 9 (who each had 1 wound now) suffered that 10th wound, a model finally died.

 

Like everyone's been discussing, I myself miss the AP system of 3rd-7th in my 8th & 9th games.  That system, alone, is what made terminators garbage tier until the massive buffs with little point changes going into 9th made them viable again. 

 

A terminator being able to shrug off all but the most expensive weapons (AP1&2) and still have an invuln against those weapons (which usually have low shot count, amplifying the potential for a 4++ or 5++ to keep a model alive) is a HUGE difference from basic infantry guns often being able to make termies take those invulns in large numbers. (Intercessors in tac doctrine for example).  The "all or nothing" aspect gives far more tactical nature to the game.

 

Don't even get me started on the vehicle system... it was perfect in the HP with damage tables days, now, christ, last weekend I watched 4 guardsman squads over two turns, at range, using FRSRF kill a land raider.

[Gederas]

I always found the scale weird, with how a sword that cuts through power armor like butter does not so much as knick the paint on Artificer Armor. Artificer/Terminator armor should be much better, but like 16%-50% better, not 99 to the 9th power better.

If a sharpen a stick I can thrust it through your shirt into your body. If you wear a breastplate I won't make a scratch.

That's the AP system in a nutshell.

Modifiers to armor are not more realistic. It's just different. Both systems are an abstract of reality and have their merits, but AP is closer to reality then modifiers to be honest. You punch through or you don't. It simplifies how real armor and weapons work but it is in principle just like that.

Frankly, I just dislike how GW got it entirely backwards with power weapons

 

Swords were not made for anti-armour, in fact, plate armour made swords all-but obsolete in actual combat outside of being a side-arm and for unarmoured combatants. Hammers and Maces were better at armour penetration. Hell, even the humble axe was better against proper armour than a sword.

 

Really, even with the power field for the general power weapons from least effective to most effective it'd go: Sword < Axe < Mace < Hammer

 

The weird ones like Spears and Scythes.... The former would realistically be better than a sword or axe, but that's also because they can get into weak spots (and when used from Horseback Bikes you get the extra "oomph" that can pierce armour). Scythes (like how they're modeled here) aren't actually a weapon. There were historical War Scythes but those were basically Spears/Polearms with a curvier blade

Edited March 27, 2021 by Gederas

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Plastic is significantly more intensive than resin. Requiring three years of prep time from concept to shelf. Anuj is on the Total War team, and was part of the group that just released Rakarth.

 

I can't say I know for a fact, but this thing you say might have been true going back 3-5 years or more. Nowadays I'm pretty sure it's technically possible to go from ready 3D digital model to shelf in maybe 3 months if everything is rushed. Same developments that enable normal people 3D printed high quality stuff at home enables industrial producers (like GW) to prepare and refine master models and molds in very quick pace after principal digital 3D model has been done. Then with functional mold it's very simple to just doing production runs. Previously without extremely high quality 3D printing the master model and mold preparation was far slower and far more tedious process.

 

Plastic casting is very simple if working mold exists in factories with proper equipment and skilled operators.

Lead time for a plastic release from GW is still years, per WarhammerTV interviews. GW models don’t go from Master to Product with just mold making in between. There’s months where the tool makers and engineers layout the sprue first, then machine the mold, then installation and production came begin.

[sarabando]

 

 

Plastic is significantly more intensive than resin. Requiring three years of prep time from concept to shelf. Anuj is on the Total War team, and was part of the group that just released Rakarth.

I can't say I know for a fact, but this thing you say might have been true going back 3-5 years or more. Nowadays I'm pretty sure it's technically possible to go from ready 3D digital model to shelf in maybe 3 months if everything is rushed. Same developments that enable normal people 3D printed high quality stuff at home enables industrial producers (like GW) to prepare and refine master models and molds in very quick pace after principal digital 3D model has been done. Then with functional mold it's very simple to just doing production runs. Previously without extremely high quality 3D printing the master model and mold preparation was far slower and far more tedious process.

 

Plastic casting is very simple if working mold exists in factories with proper equipment and skilled operators.

Lead time for a plastic release from GW is still years, per WarhammerTV interviews. GW models don’t go from Master to Product with just mold making in between. There’s months where the tool makers and engineers layout the sprue first, then machine the mold, then installation and production came begin.

 

The sprues are designed digitally nowdays the system cuts and lays out the parts in the most efficent way.  The bits that take the longest are 1. Boxes 2. producing enough for initial demand.

[WrathOfTheLion]

It probably takes two years to see a production through, maybe less depending on what it is. In timelines, they could easily have a 2021 release if they decided to pull the trigger around the time Malevolence was released.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

Plastic is significantly more intensive than resin. Requiring three years of prep time from concept to shelf. Anuj is on the Total War team, and was part of the group that just released Rakarth.

I can't say I know for a fact, but this thing you say might have been true going back 3-5 years or more. Nowadays I'm pretty sure it's technically possible to go from ready 3D digital model to shelf in maybe 3 months if everything is rushed. Same developments that enable normal people 3D printed high quality stuff at home enables industrial producers (like GW) to prepare and refine master models and molds in very quick pace after principal digital 3D model has been done. Then with functional mold it's very simple to just doing production runs. Previously without extremely high quality 3D printing the master model and mold preparation was far slower and far more tedious process.

 

Plastic casting is very simple if working mold exists in factories with proper equipment and skilled operators.

Lead time for a plastic release from GW is still years, per WarhammerTV interviews. GW models don’t go from Master to Product with just mold making in between. There’s months where the tool makers and engineers layout the sprue first, then machine the mold, then installation and production came begin.

The sprues are designed digitally nowdays the system cuts and lays out the parts in the most efficent way. The bits that take the longest are 1. Boxes 2. producing enough for initial demand.

It’s not ‘the system’ it’s the very specific set of engineers they started hiring for this express purpose. They are separate from the model designers. It’s the jobs you see them advertise for production and not design.

[Prim]

Wound allocation has often been an issue with 40K. Single models tanking all of the shots, wounds being spread around to avoid casualties, etc.

 

I've been trying a simple version of 5th ed wound allocation and it seems ok so far.

 

1. Player controlling the target unit allocates hits to models. Each model must get 1 hit before any model gets a 2nd hit.

2. All saves of the same value are taken together (regardless of save type e.g. invul, armour etc).

3. Casualties are then taken from the group with wounded models getting priority.

This avoids the sarge tanking everything and cuts down the amount of save shenanigans that a kitted out squad can manage.

 

I've also been thinking about bringing in a hit allocation rule from Bolt Action in some form.

In Bolt Action, for each 6 rolled to wound, you can roll again. For each 6 you roll there, the player firing can allocate that hit, allowing you to take out guys with specual weapons or sergeants more easily.

However, 40K already has a few things tied to rolling 6's, like Rending, so I'm not sure if this would be a bit too much in some cases.

 

As for 7th AP Vs. 8th AP, I can see the merits for both, but I prefer the all or nothing approach of 7th. I do dislike the way cover works. Hiding behind a hedge should make you harder to hit, but it shouldn't deflect a plasma shot. Similarly, a stone wall should probably stop the blast (making the shot a miss) rather than suddenly preventing the blast after it has already proved fatal. I am very strongly in favour of cover being a to-hit penalty rather than an extra save.

 

If/When an AoD v2.0 is released, I'll give it a try and then pick it apart for rules I like and rules I'll houserule. (The benefit of hosting games rather than playing at a club).

[Marshal Rohr]

The new ‘obscuring’ rules would add some nice granularity to cover. Hard cover is a save, obscuring cover is a to hit reduction.

[SkimaskMohawk]

IIRC the cover save was always meant to be an abstract for how hard it was to aim and hit your target properly; it wasnt strictly how much protection a tree would give you against a laser cannon.

 

I have a feeling they went with the save over modifier to hit because it doesn't take away from a player's agency. If you have a sick roll to hit and wound you feel good, and then you're opponent can feel like they have a chance to do something against it. Compare that to hoping the -1 will do a lot and they high roll and you're left there just waiting to get blasted off their wound roll.

 

Complete speculation, but that's what I'd guess.

[Noserenda]

Thats about right, i recall there was an absolute ban on modifiers in 3rd ed rules at some point in development so they had to think of another way.

[MARK0SIAN]

I definitely want cover to stay as a separate save. So much stuff just erases marines as it is that without this extra save they’d be even more fragile.

 

I also prefer the 7th edition AP system. As I said, marines already die in droves but switching to the new system would further reduce the amount of weapons they would get their 3+ save against. For example they’d no longer get it against heavy bolters. In fact in 9th edition marines only get their full save against the most basic of basic weaponry, I’d hate to see that in 30k.

[depthcharge12]

This just in guys, I know why Horus Heresy releases and road maps are delayed:

 

 

It appears the blockage of the Suez Canal has prevented specialist games from sculpting new models, creating FAQs, and generating hype by creating tangible roadmaps.

 

This is said to prevent releases of the new Arlatax model that got rules 4 years ago for another 20 months.

 

In case you were wondering though, it won’t prevent any new LotR model releases like Random Hobbit villager #623 or the very popular lembas bread model as seen in all three movies. :)

[Beerhammer]

I might have missed it but there are models in NLs that are out stock and no longer available, the power armor praetor and Konrad Cruze. Are going to change up the models?

[Hfran Morkai]

I might have missed it but there are models in NLs that are out stock and no longer available, the power armor praetor and Konrad Cruze. Are going to change up the models?

Unlikely.

 

FW have had issues with their site recently and the coding is a bit screwy so stuff is showing as "No longer available" when it's not the case (may be out of stock though).

[Beerhammer]

Good, I really would like that Praetor for NLs

[Joe]

To be perfectly frank people need to get over the Alan Bligh fetishisation that's been circulating for the last decade - it's borderline creepy, and harkens back to the days when Tuomas Pirinen and Rick Priestley were being unceremoniously shoved on a pedestal by the community and treated as greatest thing to ever happen to the hobby. I highly doubt Alan would be happy with how people use his name to slander other designers without a second thought.

 

 

Lead time for a plastic release from GW is still years, per WarhammerTV interviews. GW models don’t go from Master to Product with just mold making in between. There’s months where the tool makers and engineers layout the sprue first, then machine the mold, then installation and production came begin.

 

This isn't strictly true. The shortest turn-around from design to release was six months, which was the Possessed replacement iirc.

[Hfran Morkai]

So we have some WHC content today. A DA showcase.

 

https://bit.ly/3u86rUg?fbclid=IwAR04VmN06j1hQtgmCQIuGrq98lYwlShSgxBgacRJnRW-UQjoiXgVikgBkPg

 

This made me happy. It doesn't have to be all crunch and releases, even just giving us some time on WHC to show off some glorious collections indicates to the users that the system does still have merit.

[Marshal Rohr]

When did Dimi go back to FW? I thought he left years ago?

[sarabando]

Man 2 minis and a whc article and it feels like we are getting loads of Content XD god emperor what a sorry state we are in XD

[Cadmus Tyro]

To be perfectly frank people need to get over the Alan Bligh fetishisation that's been circulating for the last decade - it's borderline creepy, and harkens back to the days when Tuomas Pirinen and Rick Priestley were being unceremoniously shoved on a pedestal by the community and treated as greatest thing to ever happen to the hobby. I highly doubt Alan would be happy with how people use his name to slander other designers without a second thought.

 

 

Lead time for a plastic release from GW is still years, per WarhammerTV interviews. GW models don’t go from Master to Product with just mold making in between. There’s months where the tool makers and engineers layout the sprue first, then machine the mold, then installation and production came begin.

 

 

This isn't strictly true. The shortest turn-around from design to release was six months, which was the Possessed replacement iirc.

What? I think that’s a little strong.... I don’t think I’ve read any posts in this thread that support that theory. Alan Bligh was the architect of the heresy, so naturally people will judge things by the standard that has already been set. I think people can be too harsh in their judgements at times, but they are entitled to their opinion.

 

I do think it’s unhelpful to keep referencing Alan’s passing as an ongoing reason for the apparent stall in progress of the HH, when it’s clearly multifactorial.

 

Cadmus

[battle captain corpus]

Ok so back on topic.....

 

I feel that the Age of Darkness scene is very healthy and alive in fact. We don’t need constant support or releases to enjoy our hobby, they’re just icing on the cake. Events & gaming will come back given time. I personally feel GW & FW have done a considerably admirable job considering everything that’s testing them. 
 

Keep the faith brothers! 
 

BCC

[Joe]

 

What? I think that’s a little strong.... I don’t think I’ve read any posts in this thread that support that theory. Alan Bligh was the architect of the heresy, so naturally people will judge things by the standard that has already been set. I think people can be too harsh in their judgements at times, but they are entitled to their opinion.

 

I do think it’s unhelpful to keep referencing Alan’s passing as an ongoing reason for the apparent stall in progress of the HH, when it’s clearly multifactorial.

 

Cadmus

 

 

You have a point - it was a bit too strong, and I apologise for that. I'll admit I'm a bit war-weary from the constant complaining and bickering. However I do still stand by the point that people put the man on a pedestal and treat him as if he could do no wrong - when in reality a great deal of the issues with the system do stem from the man himself. But aye, above all else the stall in Heresy now is clearly a mixture of factors.

 

As far as the wider scene goes - it's never really died out around here. We have strong representation in the West Midlands (with numerous Facebook groups and hobby groups in FLGS') despite the lack of support over the last year or so. I see Heresy operating much like Mordheim currently; which has immense community-driven support, although it admittedly does benefit from near-constant input from one of the original creators.

 

All aside, my only major gripe is channels like Outer Circle and Race for Terra seem to be pushing more of a negative narrative in the last year or so, rather than focusing on the positive aspects of the community and what they are doing to keep the hobby alive.

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

You have a point - it was a bit too strong, and I apologise for that. I'll admit I'm a bit war-weary from the constant complaining and bickering. However I do still stand by the point that people put the man on a pedestal and treat him as if he could do no wrong - when in reality a great deal of the issues with the system do stem from the man himself. But aye, above all else the stall in Heresy now is clearly a mixture of factors.

 

As far as the wider scene goes - it's never really died out around here. We have strong representation in the West Midlands (with numerous Facebook groups and hobby groups in FLGS') despite the lack of support over the last year or so. I see Heresy operating much like Mordheim currently; which has immense community-driven support, although it admittedly does benefit from near-constant input from one of the original creators.

 

All aside, my only major gripe is channels like Outer Circle and Race for Terra seem to be pushing more of a negative narrative in the last year or so, rather than focusing on the positive aspects of the community and what they are doing to keep the hobby alive.

 

Much of this thread was referencing back to 2019, where it looked fairly promising as far as getting things back on track. No reason to get too bent up over some of the memes in here, it's not truly literal.

 

The hobby is strong as you say, but that's one of the big problems here. There's a large, healthy crew of people that aren't being addressed as customers. Making a MK II plastic kit for instance, would basically be printing money. So why isn't it done? Or how every kit on FW sells out immediately, yet they make Bill the Pony instead of getting WB Praetors out in a reasonable time. I know for instance we're looking at starting a HH group at even the local GW when the tables start opening up, be doing HH games there.

 

I'm also not of the opinion that negativity should be avoided. Negativity without any constructive feedback isn't overly useful, but the channels mentioned there do in fact propose solutions to the things that they do not like, so I would consider them constructive.

[Robbienw]

So we have some WHC content today. A DA showcase.

 

https://bit.ly/3u86rUg?fbclid=IwAR04VmN06j1hQtgmCQIuGrq98lYwlShSgxBgacRJnRW-UQjoiXgVikgBkPg

 

This made me happy. It doesn't have to be all crunch and releases, even just giving us some time on WHC to show off some glorious collections indicates to the users that the system does still have merit.

I’m sure I’ve seen that army on social media before. It’s a superb force, so nicely painted and converted :) Edited March 31, 2021 by Robbienw