State of the Union (Heresy)

[Cris R]

 

Heavy Bolters going to Heavy 4 definitely makes me fell less bad about my Sniper-Era Bolter Vet Squad.

 

Primarchs getting their own FoC Slot (but still counting towards the LoW limit) is WONDERFUL because it means you can have a Primarch and a Mastodon in big games without needing to run any special detachments or make homebrewed allowances unlike, say, Perturabo and Dorn who just got to roll around like absolute Gs in their pimpmobiles.

 

 

Not ideal haha, running an event in April (so no worries about being 2.0 then) but out of 40 odd attendees a quarter of the field are non-marine. Bit of a big hit leaving them all out in the cold for god knows how long. Surely they'd hit us with a index style release?

 

Or even at the start is it going to come down to the community to get sorted haha. 

Its literally all down to priorities: get the largest and most populated factions done asap then get the remaining armies done ASAP.

 

Also, we literally have no idea what they'll be releasing on launch in terms of rules beyond just making assumptions based on obvious priorities.

Oh man if we had to base our reactions on stuff that we know as fact, we'd be forced to sit here quietly. I'm just basing low-key vexetion based off what we know and how we know GW can be. 

My main armies are not marines so I feel you. Seems that they will not be part of the main launch, but that's good... lets the meta shake out and they can figure out how to balance them against it. As I wrote earlier they will need to do major reworks to the human armies given the changes to weapon balance.

 

Man, we can e-hug it out, is a bit of a worry. 

 

My biggest..well its not a concern at this point, its almost a surety, is when they delete no-model units, what the hell is milita and cults (and daemons for that matter) left with. I think we're going to see the demise of the two biggest sandbox armies we've ever seen which is gutting. 

 

 

Where do the leaks state that no-model units are going to be deleted? Because that would get rid of the Blackshield Marauders, which is the main troop choice for Blackshield lists. If there's no strong evidence they're going to do this, then you're just basing this off of conjecture and we need to see more evidence whether that's the case or not.

[Darkwrath121]

Where do the leaks state that no-model units are going to be deleted? Because that would get rid of the Blackshield Marauders, which is the main troop choice for Blackshield lists. If there's no strong evidence they're going to do this, then you're just basing this off of conjecture and we need to see more evidence whether that's the case or not.

I can't speak for them, but the general fear of units lacking core models being axed is because the leaks/rumours around the DA (from the same source as the info on the new DA/WS/IF/SW rules/rites) is that the modelless DA unique units (including named characters) are missing from the book. So that's been extrapolated as possibly applying across the board.

 

Too early to say until more rumours/info address it, but hopefully not the case.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Darkwrath121

[TheTrans]

 

Where do the leaks state that no-model units are going to be deleted? Because that would get rid of the Blackshield Marauders, which is the main troop choice for Blackshield lists. If there's no strong evidence they're going to do this, then you're just basing this off of conjecture and we need to see more evidence whether that's the case or not.

I can't speak for them, but the general fear of units lacking core models being axed is because the leaks/rumours around the DA (from the same source as the info on the new DA/WS/IF/SW rules/rites) is that the modelless DA unique units (including named characters) are missing from the book. So that's been extrapolated as possibly applying across the board.

 

Too early to say until more rumours/info address it, but hopefully not the case.

 

Too early to tell, but you can pretty easily extrapolate stuff out. 

 

Not appearing in the playtest list, when most of the other bits and pieces are in there, also factor in the current 40k schtick of no-model, no rules. Hell look how the massacred my krieg, hope you didn't like grenadiers and centaurs. 

 

Also factor in they are rapidly back-filling characters with new models. To me all this starts to add up to 'oh no'.

 

But hey I'd love to be surprised! 

[Cris R]

 

 

Where do the leaks state that no-model units are going to be deleted? Because that would get rid of the Blackshield Marauders, which is the main troop choice for Blackshield lists. If there's no strong evidence they're going to do this, then you're just basing this off of conjecture and we need to see more evidence whether that's the case or not.

I can't speak for them, but the general fear of units lacking core models being axed is because the leaks/rumours around the DA (from the same source as the info on the new DA/WS/IF/SW rules/rites) is that the modelless DA unique units (including named characters) are missing from the book. So that's been extrapolated as possibly applying across the board.

 

Too early to say until more rumours/info address it, but hopefully not the case.

 

Too early to tell, but you can pretty easily extrapolate stuff out. 

 

Not appearing in the playtest list, when most of the other bits and pieces are in there, also factor in the current 40k schtick of no-model, no rules. Hell look how the massacred my krieg, hope you didn't like grenadiers and centaurs. 

 

Also factor in they are rapidly back-filling characters with new models. To me all this starts to add up to 'oh no'.

 

But hey I'd love to be surprised! 

 

 

Yeah, no. These leaps of logic strain credulity when we don't even know the final roster of units for marines, much less the other factions. And it's important to note that we don't know how Specialist Games divided the play testers or the play testing period. It's entirely possible one group of play testers have been focusing on other factions and we haven't heard anything because this group didn't have the leaker. It's also possible that they're still in play testing phases one and two for the other factions and we won't know how things will shake out for them. Basically, trying to extrapolate big sweeping conclusions from these different pieces of information is the 30k equivalent of Twitter doom scrolling. Let's get more information before we begin to panic. 

[TheTrans]

 

 

 

Where do the leaks state that no-model units are going to be deleted? Because that would get rid of the Blackshield Marauders, which is the main troop choice for Blackshield lists. If there's no strong evidence they're going to do this, then you're just basing this off of conjecture and we need to see more evidence whether that's the case or not.

I can't speak for them, but the general fear of units lacking core models being axed is because the leaks/rumours around the DA (from the same source as the info on the new DA/WS/IF/SW rules/rites) is that the modelless DA unique units (including named characters) are missing from the book. So that's been extrapolated as possibly applying across the board.

 

Too early to say until more rumours/info address it, but hopefully not the case.

 

Too early to tell, but you can pretty easily extrapolate stuff out. 

 

Not appearing in the playtest list, when most of the other bits and pieces are in there, also factor in the current 40k schtick of no-model, no rules. Hell look how the massacred my krieg, hope you didn't like grenadiers and centaurs. 

 

Also factor in they are rapidly back-filling characters with new models. To me all this starts to add up to 'oh no'.

 

But hey I'd love to be surprised! 

 

 

Yeah, no. These leaps of logic strain credulity when we don't even know the final roster of units for marines, much less the other factions. And it's important to note that we don't know how Specialist Games divided the play testers or the play testing period. It's entirely possible one group of play testers have been focusing on other factions and we haven't heard anything because this group didn't have the leaker. It's also possible that they're still in play testing phases one and two for the other factions and we won't know how things will shake out for them. Basically, trying to extrapolate big sweeping conclusions from these different pieces of information is the 30k equivalent of Twitter doom scrolling. Let's get more information before we begin to panic. 

 

 

**Screenshotted for posterity** ;) 

 

 

[Noserenda]

Yeah Forgeworld are far and away the most merciless range cutters in the last few years, it would totally be on form. Looking at the other leaks we have so far keeping existing armies 100% legal obviously was not a priority for them with things like fixed sponsons, removed consul options and extensive melee weapon changes.

I would expect a full index setup though, even if they are very "get you by" while they wait for slots to push out books the revamp has been delayed a year or so at least and from their limited attention to the current rules they must have been fully focused on this reboot even longer, they must have all the army lists covered by now, focusing purely on marines would feel like shooting themselves in the foot, would the minimal cost of hosting some PDFs at least be justified in the goodwill retained? 

The alternative being quarterly releases if we are lucky based on how FW seems to organise its releases.

[Cris R]

New alleged leaks. The reference the new tank which has been confirmed to be true, so I put some stock into these:

 

New "disintegrator" rifles, pistols, and combi-weapons mostly available to centurions and seeker sgts

Rotor cannons are Assault now with Pinning and Shell Shock (1), apparently causing -1Ld to the subsequent Pinning check

Nemesis Bolter, 72" Heavy 1, Sniper, maybe replacing sniper rifles for Legions

Thunder hammers are now Sunder instead of concussive (HELL yeah)

Dark Angels Warlord trait previously leaked as allowing to select bonuses against certain factions lists "Dark Mechanicum" as one faction

Salamanders no also have -1S to incoming plasma, melta, and volkite. -1" charge/run/sweep is gone, Morale bonus now attached to a legion specific Warlord Trait

Raven Guard split into Hawks/Talons/Falcons that confer different bonuses to different unit types

Iron Hands -1S to incoming shooting now applies to all non-vehicle units (including new MC dreadnoughts), all vehicles get 6+ It Will Not Die and Autosimulacra can increase that to 5+

Iron Hands specific reaction to overwatch at full BS twice with Gets Hot!

Iron Father's get a machinator array instead of a servo arm, have Battle Smith (3+)

Toxiferran flamers are now just Poison and Rending instead of Tainted

Flamestorm cannons are no longer AP3 but have Torrent

Volkite Calivers are Heavy 3

The Kratos is a new heavy tank that has a turret battle cannon/melta cannon/volkite turret with 4 weapons across the turret and sponsons, mostly autocannons, heavy bolters, and volkite culverins

All terminators now have two wounds!

Cataphractii and Tartaros are split into different unit profiles

Primarchs and Fortifications have their own Force Org slot

Primarchs can be taken 1 per primary detachment but count towards LoW points

Allied detachments are larger

Destroyer squads split into "Assault" and "Mortis" units

Despoiler squads return and Scout Squads added to tactical and Recon Squads as troops choices

Termites are now universal DT's like rhinos for most things (oh boy)

Most vehicles are now squadrons, including Deredeo talons, Sikarans, Whirlwinds (including Scorpius), all Sicaran variants, predators (in up to 5), Cerberus, and Typhons

Proteus Land Raider has been split into "Carrier" and "Exploratory" variants (presumably just making a different unit entry for the explorator web upgrade)

Space Wolves are getting a "Grey Hunter" unit

All weapons have been rebalanced to be viable (lets see how that goes)

Weapon S can go above 10, but is capped at S10 for wounding but "true" value is used for armor pen and ID

Twinlinked is more or less being replaced with Gravis ala 40k (double shots)

Autocannons and variants now have Rending

Astartes Shotguns have concussive

Demo cannons are AP3 but have rules to increase them above S10 for ID and armor pen

Heavy Bolters are now Heavy 4

Combi-weapons split into "magna" and "minor" types, and both halves of the weapon can be fired at once. "Magna" are melta, plasma, and disintegrator and are one shot, all other variants are not one shot (prettyuch just a cleanup of what we already knew)

Lascannons have Sunder

Gravis blast weapons just use 5" blast instead of 3" (again phasing out twin linked)

Plasma are AP4 Breach (4+), essentially 4+ Rending

Lascutters now also have an 8" S10 AP1 Armorbane shot as well as the melee attack

Speaking of melee, combat blades, chainswords, bayonets, and chain bayonets all have different profiles

Combat blades are base profile

Bayonets are +1S Two Handed

Chainswords have Shred

Chain Bayonets are +1S Two Handed Shred

(Kinda unnecessary imo but I'm not gonna complain about it)

New Charnable weapons, "tabre and stave"

Force stave and power lance have "Reach", whatever that does

Power swords are AP3 Rending, Power Mauls are +2S AP3, Axes remain unchanged

Lightning Claws have Rending, and pairing them gives +2A instead of +1A

Enjoy

 

 

One thing that's interesting here for Blood Angels players like myself is being able to take vehicles in squadrons. We'll see if Specialist changes the wording for the rule that requires us to take more units with the LA rule than vehicles - it's entirely possible they say more units with the LA rule than vehicles or MCs with the potential changes to Dreads - but keeping that wording with these new changes would go a long way to make it easier to build harder hitting lists. The same applies to Blackshields as well which have similar restrictions.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Them being missing from the book could also have GW sticking them in a campaign book to sell that, would hardly be unheard of. Something doesn't seem credible that Corswain would be gone and wouldn't make his way back in at some point.

 

As well, there's other characters amongst the Loyalist legions with no Character model and there was no mention at all of them, so that part of the leak seems strange in totality, or possibly misread as a casualty of a few layers of telephone going on.

Edited March 10, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Reach...if that lets you hit additional things not in base to base I wonder? Maybe you can only normally kill as many things as you are "engaged with"?

 

 

I hope Custodes spear get it :)

[Marshal Rohr]

Love everything about those new rumors. The game is looking up.

[Gorgoff]

Some very good ideas there.

For years now I have an assault sergeant with two power claws which natural does jack :cuss in close combat. Now comes his time to shine.

The bajonets seems like a weird idea, though. Maybe they wondered how to improve the humble tactical marine. S5 shred could do the trick. I wonder what happens to chainaxes.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Gorgoff

[Asbestress]

 

Heavy Bolters going to Heavy 4 definitely makes me fell less bad about my Sniper-Era Bolter Vet Squad.

 

Primarchs getting their own FoC Slot (but still counting towards the LoW limit) is WONDERFUL because it means you can have a Primarch and a Mastodon in big games without needing to run any special detachments or make homebrewed allowances unlike, say, Perturabo and Dorn who just got to roll around like absolute Gs in their pimpmobiles.

 

 

Not ideal haha, running an event in April (so no worries about being 2.0 then) but out of 40 odd attendees a quarter of the field are non-marine. Bit of a big hit leaving them all out in the cold for god knows how long. Surely they'd hit us with a index style release?

 

Or even at the start is it going to come down to the community to get sorted haha. 

Its literally all down to priorities: get the largest and most populated factions done asap then get the remaining armies done ASAP.

 

Also, we literally have no idea what they'll be releasing on launch in terms of rules beyond just making assumptions based on obvious priorities.

Oh man if we had to base our reactions on stuff that we know as fact, we'd be forced to sit here quietly. I'm just basing low-key vexetion based off what we know and how we know GW can be. 

My main armies are not marines so I feel you. Seems that they will not be part of the main launch, but that's good... lets the meta shake out and they can figure out how to balance them against it. As I wrote earlier they will need to do major reworks to the human armies given the changes to weapon balance.

 

Man, we can e-hug it out, is a bit of a worry. 

 

My biggest..well its not a concern at this point, its almost a surety, is when they delete no-model units, what the hell is milita and cults (and daemons for that matter) left with. I think we're going to see the demise of the two biggest sandbox armies we've ever seen which is gutting. 

 

Well, I mean both "Imperialis Militia Rogue Psykers" and "Ruinstorm Daemon Lords" are mentioned over here on the main leaks thread

 

The following examples show some common units or models that also have the Psyker sub-type:

 

-Legion Centurion with the Librarian Consul upgrade:

 Infantry (Character, Psyker)

-Ruinstorm Daemon Lord: Daemon (Character, Monstrous, Psyker)

-Imperialis Militia Rogue Psyker: Infantry (Character, Psyker)

 

So I don't think we'll have to say goodbye to sandbox* armies, as there is neither a Rogue Psyker mini (I'm not counting BSF, and there is not one rumoured for the CSM Codex with the Traitor Guard), and neither is there a "Ruinstorm Daemon Lord" (although it can easily be represented by some kind of Daemon Prince)

 

Also, with these mentions in the "probably" main rulebook, I would guess that "secondary" faction rules will not be that far out after the big box/Legion books.

 

*edited from soup

Edited March 10, 2022 by Asbestress

[Brofist]

What's a soup army? Guessing that's 40k tournament lingo (I haven't followed for years)

[Asbestress]

What's a soup army? Guessing that's 40k tournament lingo (I haven't followed for years)

Ah, sorry, I meant sandbox army, as was said earlier in the thread.

 

I use "soup" as a term for armies that are more "general" (e.g.: Imperial Soup), so include units from multiple factions (e.g.: Space Marines, IG, Sisters etc.).

 

[Brofist]

Got it. I think by that definition the only real soup army are the Mechanicum, since they're basically a bunch of different units from different mechanicum houses/lords/organizations on loan for a particular war effort.

[jaxom]

Soup in HH would be allied detachments.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'm down for expansions to allied detachments. I have a couple rhinos and a few squads of infantry painted up for Space Wolves, but I don't know if I really want to do that much more for them right now.

 

Being able to just round that out with a bit more would be nice.

Edited March 10, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Astartes Consul]

My pet theory regarding models/rules is that anything that used to have a model but was cut will be gone - so Boxnoughts, Achillie-Alpha etc - but that stuff that still hasn't had a model released, or can be converted from current kits, will mostly stay.

 

Maybe the DA rumour is referring to the Holguin and Redloss rules that were released via PDF, rather than characters in Crusade?

 

Or, I am completely wrong and there will be a load cut to keep us all on our toes! 

[Cris R]

My pet theory regarding models/rules is that anything that used to have a model but was cut will be gone - so Boxnoughts, Achillie-Alpha etc - but that stuff that still hasn't had a model released, or can be converted from current kits, will mostly stay.

 

Maybe the DA rumour is referring to the Holguin and Redloss rules that were released via PDF, rather than characters in Crusade?

 

Or, I am completely wrong and there will be a load cut to keep us all on our toes!

You can still run Boxnoughts in the current edition since the plastic models cover that unit. The latest round of leaks also noted that the Flamestorm Cannon, which is the Boxnought’s signature weapon, is losing AP3 but gaining Torrent. So unless that weapon is going to become available for other models, it’s likely that Dread is still sticking around. Edited March 11, 2022 by Cris R

[Trixie]

Some of these 'leaks' look great, as they fix two major causes of tears (legion specific 2 wound termies and certain legions dominating melee simply because they get ap2 at initiative weapons).

 

3 underused weapons that need reworks are mentioned, those being sniper rifle, shotguns and lascutters (the lascutter is basically useless snd I've never seen it taken).

 

The warlord traits being rebalanced and potentially choosable/purchasable ticks another of the big gripes of 30k.

 

Fingers crossed now that the psyker phase has some serious attention given to it. Also is it just me or are other folk also keener to see old stuff fixed rather than hype about new stuff like the kratos tank ?

 

Part of me worries that some of these changes are so sensible....they can't really be true

[TheTrans]

Some of these 'leaks' look great, as they fix two major causes of tears (legion specific 2 wound termies and certain legions dominating melee simply because they get ap2 at initiative weapons).

 

3 underused weapons that need reworks are mentioned, those being sniper rifle, shotguns and lascutters (the lascutter is basically useless snd I've never seen it taken).

 

The warlord traits being rebalanced and potentially choosable/purchasable ticks another of the big gripes of 30k.

 

Fingers crossed now that the psyker phase has some serious attention given to it. Also is it just me or are other folk also keener to see old stuff fixed rather than hype about new stuff like the kratos tank ?

 

Part of me worries that some of these changes are so sensible....they can't really be true .

From what we've gotten on leaks, Psychic phase is gone, powers are just LD tests in the relevant phase (so a movement spell is in movement etc). 

 

I'd love for a WHFB 6th styled magic phase but that isn't going to happen. Shooting is 30ks magic phase :P 

[Nuriel-666]

What are the odds of Horus Heresy becoming third "core" game of Games Workshop, alongside AoS and 40k?

 

Personally, I think they are pretty high, if only for oppurtinity to release Indomitus-style box and new edition for each major system every year.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Nuriel-666

[Cris R]

What are the odds of Horus Heresy becoming third "core" game of Games Workshop, alongside AoS and 40k?

 

Personally, I think they are pretty high, if only for oppurtinity to release Indomitus-style box and new edition for each major system.

GW describes AoD as its third major gaming system in its investor documents that it publishes on its investor relations website. But the reality on the ground has been much different in recent years, so this new release could finally make support for AoD live up to this status moving forward.

[MCC]

Really like the rules were seeing so far and how closely it seems to be sticking to 7th. Reactions seem like they add a touch more nuance and tactical thinking to the game rather than bogging it down and slowing play like we see with stratagems in 40k at the moment. I also really appreciate that USRs are sticking around and we aren’t going to end up with 18 unique ways of saying this has a 5+ feel no pain.

 

It’s laughable though that after last June’s leaked box set reveal and now a massive rules leak we’ve still not heard anything official! Hopefully that changes soon roll on adepticon

[Brofist]

Yeah, one things for sure- this has been, and continues to be, a huge marketing and community failure from Games Workshop. I'm frankly shocked they're this bad given the fancy veneer the flagship products have been given.

 

This aside the direction this is heading seems right on. Echoes what happened with 1.0, where they cherry picked what worked well from a number of editions. Specialist games have put out some tight rulesets lately so we can look forward to some cool stuff despite the complete absence of community engagement.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Brofist