State of the Union (Heresy)

[WITCHKING501]

After a lot of catching up on the latest round of leaks, im cautiously optimistic about it.

A lot of the weapon changes, alterations to squadrons and some of the bits around the near useless psyker phase seems great.

Really looking forward to seeing the models and the rules proper.

 

Roll on Adepticon

[Astartes Consul]

 

My pet theory regarding models/rules is that anything that used to have a model but was cut will be gone - so Boxnoughts, Achillie-Alpha etc - but that stuff that still hasn't had a model released, or can be converted from current kits, will mostly stay.

 

Maybe the DA rumour is referring to the Holguin and Redloss rules that were released via PDF, rather than characters in Crusade?

 

Or, I am completely wrong and there will be a load cut to keep us all on our toes!

You can still run Boxnoughts in the current edition since the plastic models cover that unit. The latest round of leaks also noted that the Flamestorm Cannon, which is the Boxnought’s signature weapon, is losing AP3 but gaining Torrent. So unless that weapon is going to become available for other models, it’s likely that Dread is still sticking around.

 

 

Always forget that the plastic kit is technically a Boxnought - I'm just sat with my single resin MKIV feeling sad that I never picked up more of them.

 

Yeah, one things for sure- this has been, and continues to be, a huge marketing and community failure from Games Workshop. I'm frankly shocked they're this bad given the fancy veneer the flagship products have been given.

 

This aside the direction this is heading seems right on. Echoes what happened with 1.0, where they cherry picked what worked well from a number of editions. Specialist games have put out some tight rulesets lately so we can look forward to some cool stuff despite the complete absence of community engagement.

 

Said this a million times on various threads over the last few years, but from a professional stand point, the marketing & community management around Heresy has been a case study in how mess things up. And none of it would have been a particularly hard fix. 

[jaxom]

HH is the odd duckling in where it fits into GW’s business plan. It’s the third core game by accident, not design. Forge World was/is the bespoke part of the company. I continue to think the business minds simply can’t/couldn’t decide what to do with it. It’s a revenue stream they can ignore because it will still make more than they expected. The question is/was, is an actual investment in the product worth the return? We can armchair investor this all day.

[Valkyrion]

With the new primaris aesthetic being one side of the coin, an easily accessible 30k firstborn aesthetic would sell bucket loads, I'm sure.

Plastic deimos vehicles, plastic assault squads, plastic dreadnoughts, plastic jetbikes - even if upgrade kits were still resin - would fly. Maybe even some of the more unlikely kits, like a Caestus or Storm Eagle, would be feasible in plastic.

[sarabando]

we havent had a legion dispatch in ages have we? 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Something that's always confused me is the demands for all terminators to gain 2 wounds. Terminators are really, really survivable for the points and required an average of about 20 bolt or 3 plasma shots to kill. In melee, they commonly died to toner terminator units as it was the only thing with the mass of ap 2 attacks that could clean them up.

 

Adding a wound would skew them incredibly against the smaller stuff but leave them even more vulnerable to the bigger stuff. That'd be fine, if their points stayed the same, but they wouldn't; firedrakes pay 100 more for that extra wound and weapon skill. I get that I'm an outlier when it comes to building lists, but imo the cheapness of the terminators is core to their strength.

 

Seeing the 2 wound change for the new edition makes me think; I think about the changes away from reliable AP 2 with plasma proccing on 4s, demo cannons going to 3, melee weapons gaining rending, etc...They're actively making the game into a grind, with far more of those small-medium arms that 2 wound terminators would be good against currently. The unit is going to turn into a brick of a unit that needs to be planned for. I don't know if power/chain fists will keep their rules, or how the point scaling will look, but I think it's fair to say that it's going to be a bad investment to have terminators fight terminators in the future, as they're more likely to function as point sinks than ~225 point hit squads.

[WrathOfTheLion]

we havent had a legion dispatch in ages have we? 

Not since November or December if I remember correctly.

[Noserenda]

 

What are the odds of Horus Heresy becoming third "core" game of Games Workshop, alongside AoS and 40k?

 

Personally, I think they are pretty high, if only for oppurtinity to release Indomitus-style box and new edition for each major system.

GW describes AoD as its third major gaming system in its investor documents that it publishes on its investor relations website. But the reality on the ground has been much different in recent years, so this new release could finally make support for AoD live up to this status moving forward.

Do you have a link to that? Because I've not read the last couple but this has generally not been true. Horus Heresy is the third pillar of IP, but that's a lot more than AoD.

 

I doubt 30k can carry anywhere near a core game right now, but accessible plastics and a decent starter again would help, the community has shrunk considerably since that was last true.

 

It does tend to benefit from dissatisfaction with full 40k too, which is on the rise right now.

 

But no, I'd expect Specialist game status or staying nebulous like LOTR.

[zedmeister]

Well well, look what's now sold out and no longer available:

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-heresy-Age-of-Darkness-Rulebook-2017

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Crusade-Imperialis-Army-Lists"

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Crusade-Imperialis-Army-Lists

Edited March 11, 2022 by zedmeister

[Asbestress]

Well well, look what's now sold out and no longer available:

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-heresy-Age-of-Darkness-Rulebook-2017

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Crusade-Imperialis-Army-Lists"

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/The-Horus-Heresy-Crusade-Imperialis-Army-Lists

Those have all been gone for a while now.

 

Imo it's one of the stronger clues to something new coming, because as it stands right now, you can't physically get most of the rules for the game right now (including the campaign books).

[Mogsam]

Something that's always confused me is the demands for all terminators to gain 2 wounds. Terminators are really, really survivable for the points and required an average of about 20 bolt or 3 plasma shots to kill. In melee, they commonly died to toner terminator units as it was the only thing with the mass of ap 2 attacks that could clean them up.

 

Adding a wound would skew them incredibly against the smaller stuff but leave them even more vulnerable to the bigger stuff. That'd be fine, if their points stayed the same, but they wouldn't; firedrakes pay 100 more for that extra wound and weapon skill. I get that I'm an outlier when it comes to building lists, but imo the cheapness of the terminators is core to their strength.

 

Seeing the 2 wound change for the new edition makes me think; I think about the changes away from reliable AP 2 with plasma proccing on 4s, demo cannons going to 3, melee weapons gaining rending, etc...They're actively making the game into a grind, with far more of those small-medium arms that 2 wound terminators would be good against currently. The unit is going to turn into a brick of a unit that needs to be planned for. I don't know if power/chain fists will keep their rules, or how the point scaling will look, but I think it's fair to say that it's going to be a bad investment to have terminators fight terminators in the future, as they're more likely to function as point sinks than ~225 point hit squads.

Sorry but terminators are one of the worst return on investment units in heresy. They're not very survivable and plenty of units can kill them easily. I don't even fire plasma at them, just shove a load of mediocre shots into them and they'll eventually roll several 1s.

 

They're no threat really and their only use for me is to shove them in an anvillus and punch some tanks to death. That comes in at 300ish points but 5 vets in a drill do it better for less.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Something that's always confused me is the demands for all terminators to gain 2 wounds. Terminators are really, really survivable for the points and required an average of about 20 bolt or 3 plasma shots to kill. In melee, they commonly died to toner terminator units as it was the only thing with the mass of ap 2 attacks that could clean them up.

 

Adding a wound would skew them incredibly against the smaller stuff but leave them even more vulnerable to the bigger stuff. That'd be fine, if their points stayed the same, but they wouldn't; firedrakes pay 100 more for that extra wound and weapon skill. I get that I'm an outlier when it comes to building lists, but imo the cheapness of the terminators is core to their strength.

 

Seeing the 2 wound change for the new edition makes me think; I think about the changes away from reliable AP 2 with plasma proccing on 4s, demo cannons going to 3, melee weapons gaining rending, etc...They're actively making the game into a grind, with far more of those small-medium arms that 2 wound terminators would be good against currently. The unit is going to turn into a brick of a unit that needs to be planned for. I don't know if power/chain fists will keep their rules, or how the point scaling will look, but I think it's fair to say that it's going to be a bad investment to have terminators fight terminators in the future, as they're more likely to function as point sinks than ~225 point hit squads.

Sorry but terminators are one of the worst return on investment units in heresy. They're not very survivable and plenty of units can kill them easily. I don't even fire plasma at them, just shove a load of mediocre shots into them and they'll eventually roll several 1s.

 

They're no threat really and their only use for me is to shove them in an anvillus and punch some tanks to death. That comes in at 300ish points but 5 vets in a drill do it better for less.

 

 

I'm not sure how you make that claim.

 

A Veteran is 12 points. A power weapon is 10 points. Artificer is 10 points. Refractor is 10 points/Iron halo is 25 points. To build a veteran into a terminator, you would spend 42-57 points compared to the 35 they cost. A Legion terminator model is extremely heavily discounted for the profile you receive. To push this even further; a praetor wanting to go into terminator armour pays 35 alone for that, even though he comes in artificer. For that 135, you can get 3 terminator models with chainfists and are able to fight any target. They'll absolutely mop that  praetor. 

 

So we know that they're actually very highly discounted for the stats you receive. Then you say you they're not very survivable and you can just shove mediocre shots at them. 

 

That's a wild claim. You need 18 bolter shots to average 1 dead terminator. I get that there's often spare bolter shots, but not usually 90 to kill a minimum squad; even high strength weapons that can't pierce the armour only average a 9% success rate and would need 11 shots to average 1 kill.  When we start comparing the points invested to get that 35-45 point kill, it starts looking bad:

 

Tactical  Squad

- 4.5 fury of the legion bolters - 45 points  

- 9 rapid firing bolters - 90 points

- 18 normal bolter shots  - 180 points

 

Heavy Support Squad

- 5 heavy bolters - 100 points

- 5.5 autocannons - 137 points

- 10 krak missiles - 285 points

 

I could keep going and keep listing various weapons that can't pierce terminator armour and show that the points spent to kill 1 terminator is very rarely efficient. The fury of the legion is the closest as terminators usually have chainfists or a combi, but notably even a full squad doesn't guarantee the wipe at an average of 4.48 failed saves.. Arguably, you're front loading two shooting rounds so there isn't any difference between that and normal rapid firing in terms of points invested to deal with the terminators.  

 

Even for plasma, each shot has a 27% average chance to kill a cataphractii; that's two plasma guns in rapid fire range at best. The cheapest  delivery method is vets with combis, which come out at 44 points to kill a terminator model. But the squad of 10 that you need to burst them down will run you 260 to kill that ~225 point unit of terminators.  And its still wildly more efficient than the small arms fire above.

 

Your reaction is emblematic of my confusion vis-a-vis the need for a wound increase. There's a lot of hot takes of terminators being trash, or unsurvivable, or whatever else. But when you look at what you pay for and how much needs to be directed at them, those opinions just don't hold up. 

[Cris R]

 

 

What are the odds of Horus Heresy becoming third "core" game of Games Workshop, alongside AoS and 40k?

 

Personally, I think they are pretty high, if only for oppurtinity to release Indomitus-style box and new edition for each major system.

GW describes AoD as its third major gaming system in its investor documents that it publishes on its investor relations website. But the reality on the ground has been much different in recent years, so this new release could finally make support for AoD live up to this status moving forward.

Do you have a link to that? Because I've not read the last couple but this has generally not been true. Horus Heresy is the third pillar of IP, but that's a lot more than AoD.

 

I doubt 30k can carry anywhere near a core game right now, but accessible plastics and a decent starter again would help, the community has shrunk considerably since that was last true.

 

It does tend to benefit from dissatisfaction with full 40k too, which is on the rise right now.

 

But no, I'd expect Specialist game status or staying nebulous like LOTR.

 

 

Thanks for the clarification, that's right. Here's the last full year report; relevant section appears on page 4.

[Brofist]

Yeah, all termies getting 2 wounds just means they'll cost more. They'll be tanks for sure, but I suspect a 5 man squad will cost notably more than it does today.

[Valkyrion]

How about pushing terminators to T5 instead of 2 wounds? The stuff that kills them easily now still will, but T5 makes them much more survivable against small arms, which I think suits thematically. 

[Bung]

How about pushing terminators to T5 instead of 2 wounds? The stuff that kills them easily now still will, but T5 makes them much more survivable against small arms, which I think suits thematically.

Ask people that played against an IF Stone Gauntlet list with Shield Terminators what a chore they can be with T5 and 3++

[Valkyrion]

They're supposed to be a chore though. 

Terminators with storm shields should be borderline invincible, at the expense of mobility, scarcity and damage output. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

Something that's always confused me is the demands for all terminators to gain 2 wounds. Terminators are really, really survivable for the points and required an average of about 20 bolt or 3 plasma shots to kill. In melee, they commonly died to toner terminator units as it was the only thing with the mass of ap 2 attacks that could clean them up.

I don't see how that's confusing, they see that some of the terminator units have 2 wounds so they want theirs to have 2 wounds. They're not running math and efficiency and picking what they want based on calculations.

[Mogsam]

 

 

 

Something that's always confused me is the demands for all terminators to gain 2 wounds. Terminators are really, really survivable for the points and required an average of about 20 bolt or 3 plasma shots to kill. In melee, they commonly died to toner terminator units as it was the only thing with the mass of ap 2 attacks that could clean them up.

 

Adding a wound would skew them incredibly against the smaller stuff but leave them even more vulnerable to the bigger stuff. That'd be fine, if their points stayed the same, but they wouldn't; firedrakes pay 100 more for that extra wound and weapon skill. I get that I'm an outlier when it comes to building lists, but imo the cheapness of the terminators is core to their strength.

 

Seeing the 2 wound change for the new edition makes me think; I think about the changes away from reliable AP 2 with plasma proccing on 4s, demo cannons going to 3, melee weapons gaining rending, etc...They're actively making the game into a grind, with far more of those small-medium arms that 2 wound terminators would be good against currently. The unit is going to turn into a brick of a unit that needs to be planned for. I don't know if power/chain fists will keep their rules, or how the point scaling will look, but I think it's fair to say that it's going to be a bad investment to have terminators fight terminators in the future, as they're more likely to function as point sinks than ~225 point hit squads.

Sorry but terminators are one of the worst return on investment units in heresy. They're not very survivable and plenty of units can kill them easily. I don't even fire plasma at them, just shove a load of mediocre shots into them and they'll eventually roll several 1s.

 

They're no threat really and their only use for me is to shove them in an anvillus and punch some tanks to death. That comes in at 300ish points but 5 vets in a drill do it better for less.

I'm not sure how you make that claim.

 

A Veteran is 12 points. A power weapon is 10 points. Artificer is 10 points. Refractor is 10 points/Iron halo is 25 points. To build a veteran into a terminator, you would spend 42-57 points compared to the 35 they cost. A Legion terminator model is extremely heavily discounted for the profile you receive. To push this even further; a praetor wanting to go into terminator armour pays 35 alone for that, even though he comes in artificer. For that 135, you can get 3 terminator models with chainfists and are able to fight any target. They'll absolutely mop that praetor.

 

So we know that they're actually very highly discounted for the stats you receive. Then you say you they're not very survivable and you can just shove mediocre shots at them.

 

That's a wild claim. You need 18 bolter shots to average 1 dead terminator. I get that there's often spare bolter shots, but not usually 90 to kill a minimum squad; even high strength weapons that can't pierce the armour only average a 9% success rate and would need 11 shots to average 1 kill. When we start comparing the points invested to get that 35-45 point kill, it starts looking bad:

 

Tactical Squad

- 4.5 fury of the legion bolters - 45 points

- 9 rapid firing bolters - 90 points

- 18 normal bolter shots - 180 points

 

Heavy Support Squad

- 5 heavy bolters - 100 points

- 5.5 autocannons - 137 points

- 10 krak missiles - 285 points

 

I could keep going and keep listing various weapons that can't pierce terminator armour and show that the points spent to kill 1 terminator is very rarely efficient. The fury of the legion is the closest as terminators usually have chainfists or a combi, but notably even a full squad doesn't guarantee the wipe at an average of 4.48 failed saves.. Arguably, you're front loading two shooting rounds so there isn't any difference between that and normal rapid firing in terms of points invested to deal with the terminators.

 

Even for plasma, each shot has a 27% average chance to kill a cataphractii; that's two plasma guns in rapid fire range at best. The cheapest delivery method is vets with combis, which come out at 44 points to kill a terminator model. But the squad of 10 that you need to burst them down will run you 260 to kill that ~225 point unit of terminators. And its still wildly more efficient than the small arms fire above.

 

Your reaction is emblematic of my confusion vis-a-vis the need for a wound increase. There's a lot of hot takes of terminators being trash, or unsurvivable, or whatever else. But when you look at what you pay for and how much needs to be directed at them, those opinions just don't hold up.

I want to like terminators, but unless they get 2 wounds they die too easily, all the averaging maths in the world can't convince me that they don't from the many many times I've watched them die to small arms fire or a bucket of volkite.

 

35 points a guy is so pricy, especially when they have to take a transport so that's another 115-225-300 points. If they don't, they are vulnerable to small arms fire or templates and too slow.

 

Take a 2 wound squad though? I don't even bother firing at firedrakes because they're too hard to nullify without wasting your entire army on them. That's how it should be.

 

Agree that they should be a chore to kill. They're supposed to be invincible behemoths but they just aren't.

 

For me, terminators are like Breachers. I take them, but they're too expensive and not worth it. The save they get from their invuln is priced aggressively but I rarely see it be used as why bother firing that melta at them when you can fire a bucket of dice at them and draw 1s out.

 

At least 10 wounds are needed to kill a squad of breachers.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@wrathofthelion it's confusing because theyre different units, locked behind specific legions. There's more to it than "some have 2 wounds and some don't; they all should". You have points values, strength of legion special rules, strength of the other special units, strength of rites, and strength of special characters.

 

@mogsam I'm not sure what to tell you. Averages aren't guarantees, but they're an indicator of expected results; they're certainly more reliable than anecdotes. Its like saying assault cannons are the best weapon because they always roll 6s.

 

Like I'm really stumped. You say you've seen them get blasted by volkite and sure, it can happen; the average is about 4 dead terminators from a full culverin squad. But even if it does happen, that's still a very inefficient trade at like 325 for 225 tops.

 

You say 35 points is pricey, but then you say firedrakes are great at their huge markup when you only lose two wounds for an equivalent amount of legion terminators while gaining 6 attacks.

 

The same with the breachers. "At least they have 10 wounds"; their 2+ save makes them equally as durable against non-blast. And 25 points cheaper.

 

I guess that's what happens when you throw out average expected results and points comparisons; youre left with what looks cool and hot takes.

[WrathOfTheLion]

@wrathofthelion it's confusing because theyre different units, locked behind specific legions. There's more to it than "some have 2 wounds and some don't; they all should". You have points values, strength of legion special rules, strength of the other special units, strength of rites, and strength of special characters.

There is more to it, but many people aren't thinking like that is what I was saying. As far as motivations and reasonings go, it's almost certainly mostly that simple. There's a rhetorical vs dialectical element there. The dialectical element is that whether it's better will come down to how many points they cost, and we obviously don't have the information to make that call. As you mention, it can be argued that the price increase may not be worth it. However, the rhetorical element you're confused by is less rational, devolving to 'theirs have it, so mine must too'.

 

Personally, I'm not so partial as 1) we don't have context to go with it so there's little meaning until we get points costs, etc., and 2) I do like that they've normalized it, whichever way the coin lands. My criteria of normalization would've been satisfied if they dropped them all down to 1W as well, that would have been fine with me. My interest there is eliminating anomalies, which is also why I like the Dreadnought changes.

Edited March 11, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[DesuVult]

@wrathofthelion it's confusing because theyre different units, locked behind specific legions. There's more to it than "some have 2 wounds and some don't; they all should". You have points values, strength of legion special rules, strength of the other special units, strength of rites, and strength of special characters.

 

@mogsam I'm not sure what to tell you. Averages aren't guarantees, but they're an indicator of expected results; they're certainly more reliable than anecdotes. Its like saying assault cannons are the best weapon because they always roll 6s.

 

Like I'm really stumped. You say you've seen them get blasted by volkite and sure, it can happen; the average is about 4 dead terminators from a full culverin squad. But even if it does happen, that's still a very inefficient trade at like 325 for 225 tops.

 

You say 35 points is pricey, but then you say firedrakes are great at their huge markup when you only lose two wounds for an equivalent amount of legion terminators while gaining 6 attacks.

 

The same with the breachers. "At least they have 10 wounds"; their 2+ save makes them equally as durable against non-blast. And 25 points cheaper.

 

I guess that's what happens when you throw out average expected results and points comparisons; youre left with what looks cool and hot takes.

325 points killing 225 points is a very good exchange for the shooter because the shooting unit is still around. It is a rarity you can field an army that can cleanly table their opponent in a round.

[apologist]

From a narrative point of view, 2W terminators helps them feel like a midpoint between marines and heroes, which is fitting for the elite veterans of the Legion. That it also improves their resilience is a nice bonus.

[Billy Butcher]

Don't forget the most important reason to take terminators.

 

They look cool.

[jaxom]

From a narrative point of view, 2W terminators helps them feel like a midpoint between marines and heroes, which is fitting for the elite veterans of the Legion. That it also improves their resilience is a nice bonus.

Those moments in the books, describing Legion terminators, survivors and victors of decades -if not over a century- of brutal warfare, each a hero of the Imperium’s birth… shivers.