State of the Union (Heresy)

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Sunkillers are a much worse version of havocs. It doesn't really matter how good they are over normal hss, because those already suck. On top of that, EC are one of the worst legions, so it's a shame that they got a trap unit like that.

 

Dark death destroyers are really good. Really, really, good. Maybe not quite as pushed as dawnbreakers or night raptors, but these guys can certainly do the business and can fight terminators with ease.

...but it doesn't really matter for Emperor's Children if Havocs are better than Sunkillers because EC's can't take Havocs...

 

I enjoying playing Emperor's Children and I feel like they're thematic and punchy. I'm definitely going to build 10 of these!

 

 

But normal hss are terrible. My point is that havocs are the only "good version" of the unit type because they can actually kill tanks for minimal investment before eating the barrage.

 

Sunkillers can't. They can get a rhino or smaller in one go, while costing 250. You know what other heavy support unit can kill those targets if you spend the same points on them? Kakaphoni. Well actually, they're only taken in 3rd company elite, where they're troops and score, because they were terrible as is.

 

Sun killers just aren't good at anti tank. Maybe take them against daemons, where bursting down a monster on turn 1 is critical.

[Vazzy]

 

 

 

Sunkillers are a much worse version of havocs. It doesn't really matter how good they are over normal hss, because those already suck. On top of that, EC are one of the worst legions, so it's a shame that they got a trap unit like that.

 

Dark death destroyers are really good. Really, really, good. Maybe not quite as pushed as dawnbreakers or night raptors, but these guys can certainly do the business and can fight terminators with ease.

...but it doesn't really matter for Emperor's Children if Havocs are better than Sunkillers because EC's can't take Havocs...

 

I enjoying playing Emperor's Children and I feel like they're thematic and punchy. I'm definitely going to build 10 of these!

 

 

But normal hss are terrible. My point is that havocs are the only "good version" of the unit type because they can actually kill tanks for minimal investment before eating the barrage.

 

Sunkillers can't. They can get a rhino or smaller in one go, while costing 250. You know what other heavy support unit can kill those targets if you spend the same points on them? Kakaphoni. Well actually, they're only taken in 3rd company elite, where they're troops and score, because they were terrible as is.

 

Sun killers just aren't good at anti tank. Maybe take them against daemons, where bursting down a monster on turn 1 is critical.

 

Every time you talk about units I wonder if I’m playing bizarro heresy because our opinions are so different. I think HSS are somewhat over costed but I’ve made my points back with very consistently in multiple armies. I understand you’re a big math hammer guy but I’m not sure it’s representative of actual play.

 

Not trying to attack you, as you clearly put a lot of thought into units, just stunned at the gulf between our playing experiences

[DesuVult]

I'm the type of player who takes heavy bolter heavy support squads because I like them. To me the Sun Killers look cool.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

Sunkillers are a much worse version of havocs. It doesn't really matter how good they are over normal hss, because those already suck. On top of that, EC are one of the worst legions, so it's a shame that they got a trap unit like that.

 

Dark death destroyers are really good. Really, really, good. Maybe not quite as pushed as dawnbreakers or night raptors, but these guys can certainly do the business and can fight terminators with ease.

...but it doesn't really matter for Emperor's Children if Havocs are better than Sunkillers because EC's can't take Havocs...

 

I enjoying playing Emperor's Children and I feel like they're thematic and punchy. I'm definitely going to build 10 of these!

 

 

But normal hss are terrible. My point is that havocs are the only "good version" of the unit type because they can actually kill tanks for minimal investment before eating the barrage.

 

Sunkillers can't. They can get a rhino or smaller in one go, while costing 250. You know what other heavy support unit can kill those targets if you spend the same points on them? Kakaphoni. Well actually, they're only taken in 3rd company elite, where they're troops and score, because they were terrible as is.

 

Sun killers just aren't good at anti tank. Maybe take them against daemons, where bursting down a monster on turn 1 is critical.

 

Every time you talk about units I wonder if I’m playing bizarro heresy because our opinions are so different. I think HSS are somewhat over costed but I’ve made my points back with very consistently in multiple armies. I understand you’re a big math hammer guy but I’m not sure it’s representative of actual play.

 

Not trying to attack you, as you clearly put a lot of thought into units, just stunned at the gulf between our playing experiences

 

 

Well when I talk about units and what to expect, I don't share my personal experience. I use math to try and give a picture of average results to either debate efficiencies or give people information to make an educated choice on whether they want to include them or not. I could talk about the time my terror squad volkite'd down a jetbike praetor from full wounds, or havocs intercepted a leviathan with autos and one-shot it, or whatever other cool-but-aberrant events, but it wouldn't be honest.

 

I do make some assumptions, like that there's some form of AP2 or AP3 barrage because of how cheap and versatile quads, morbus, medusa and scorpii are; being able to snipe key units out of los is game winning. You take a phosphex quad or two and point it at sunkillers/HSS on turn 1 and you you've used ~140  to remove how many of them? They're just too vulnerable and there's better damage output. 

[StrangerOrders]

I am not too impressed with the Sun Killers either, encouraging static warfare seems mildly offensive to a IIIrd force though. But I will buy and build a squad.

 

Besides, I play loyalist Emperor's Children so I gave up playing smart long ago lol.

 

Jokes aside, its a fluffy and allegiance-agnostic unit so that is actually a pretty big win for the IIIrd!  

 

Although I am a little annoyed that their success had to have that 'well they do not really deserve their hype' undertone that plagues the IIIrd in the hands of bad writers... Its like GW forgot that before their fall the Third largely deserved the hype they worked their butts off for... Its getting really grating. 

 

But it was pleasing, still hoping for Sky Kings or a Jetbike unit someday though!

 

Dig the concept for the WS destroyers though.

Edited March 16, 2022 by StrangerOrders

[Astartes Consul]

Just before this thread was locked I was about to ask if anyone thought GW might move to releasing two units per Exemplary Battle so all the legions are done by June and well...call me nostradamus.

 

Both of these units look really cool. Sunkillers will absolutely delete armour - albeit at a high price and probably painting a big target on their back - and while I can't speak for the maths or how they interact with the rest of the EC list, ten BS2, ignore cover shots of Las or Plas isn't to be sniffer at, is it? The Dark Sons just fill a lovely role in the White Scar list and look like they'll pack a punch without being OP or draining all your points.

 

Though I guess as Andy Hoare plays Emperor's Children and White Scars, they were always going to get some serious love...

 

+

 

More broadly, it is just really great to see more rules coming out that strike the balance between being fluffy, representing that fluff on the tabletop and actually being a unit players will consider taking. When you compare the majority of the units we've had in Exemplary Battles so far with some of the stuff in the Dark Angels list in Crusade, it feels like there has been quite a step change for the better in terms of joined up rules writing. Hopefully this bodes well for the new edition.

[Astartes Consul]

Revisiting the list I made after the last supplement dropped, here is where we are at with the units so far...

 

Dark Angels - Knights Cenobium 

Emperor's Children - Sunkillers 

Iron Warriors - Dominator Cohort

White Scars - Karaoghlanlar Destroyers 

Space Wolves - Watch Packs ???

Imperial Fists - Huscarls 

Night Lords - Atrementar Terminators

Blood Angels - Sanguinary Guard (???

Iron Hands - Morlock Terminators ???

World Eaters - Red Hand Destroyers

Ultramarines - Nemesis Destroyers

Death Guard - Mortis Poisoners

Thousand Sons - ???

Sons of Horus - ???

Word Bearers - ???

Salamanders - ???

Raven Guard - Deliverer Terminators ???

Alpha Legion - Effrit Stealth Squad ???

 

Assuming a June/July release for Heresy 2.0, then the next three Exemplary Battles will all need to have three units each to make sure every legion is covered before the new edition. Obviously no guarantee, but I assume either all the EB units will be released as part of the updated army lists OR they will release a compilation PDF with all the units and their rules/profiles updated to reflect the new edition.

 

Obviously just spitballing here.

[Noserenda]

Most of our local player base have a decent number of Heavy support marines from the Tempus fugitive days but they dont see the field very often, typically only in bigger battles, mostly because they are all dead by turn 2 so they only really get a volley off if you go first or invest heavily in fortifications (Which only i like doing :D )  

[SkimaskMohawk]

Most of our local player base have a decent number of Heavy support marines from the Tempus fugitive days but they dont see the field very often, typically only in bigger battles, mostly because they are all dead by turn 2 so they only really get a volley off if you go first or invest heavily in fortifications (Which only i like doing :D )

Fortifications can help a lot. A cheap bunker with a void shield can deter the quad mortars and some of the initial shots. Of course, it is only one layer though, and further adds to the cost of the unit.

[MegaVolt87]

Taking plasma cannons with BS 5 and not getting cover saves on that seems pretty dope to me. Plasma cannons were one of my SM staples back in the day. The WS don't seem as good as the WE unit though. 

[jaxom]

 

Although I am a little annoyed that their success had to have that 'well they do not really deserve their hype' undertone that plagues the IIIrd in the hands of bad writers... Its like GW forgot that before their fall the Third largely deserved the hype they worked their butts off for... Its getting really grating. 

 

The 'author' of the Black Books is supposed to be that of an Imperial historian post-siege. The Exemplary Battles match the format and tone; I'm not surprised to see the dig at the 'now' traitorous IIIrd's abilities.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Taking plasma cannons with BS 5 and not getting cover saves on that seems pretty dope to me. Plasma cannons were one of my SM staples back in the day. The WS don't seem as good as the WE unit though.

Well the world eaters unit is really quite good, but also relies on weight of attacks. The WS ones do have better output with the glaives, but are also about 7 points more. Being debatabley better/the same as the world eater ones are is pretty good imo.

[MegaVolt87]

 

Taking plasma cannons with BS 5 and not getting cover saves on that seems pretty dope to me. Plasma cannons were one of my SM staples back in the day. The WS don't seem as good as the WE unit though.

Well the world eaters unit is really quite good, but also relies on weight of attacks. The WS ones do have better output with the glaives, but are also about 7 points more. Being debatabley better/the same as the world eater ones are is pretty good imo.

 

 

Fair, honestly all the glaive + spear type weapons are blending together for me in HH, though its good to see so much pole arm representation though. 

[Joe]

Exemplary Battles was a bit dull - the Loremasters article is where it's art.

 

These are all brand new - and even better, don't match the alleged "leaked" art from a while back that I'm fairly certain is just fan art that's been stolen off of DeviantArt.

 

 

 

[No Foes Remain]

The Mk2 and Mk4 are new, the Mk6 is from Book 6 and I think the Mk5 may be from Book 2 or Book 6.

 

It could be art from a potential Shadow Crusade/Underground Calth book.

 

 

Edit: Just double checked and the Mk5 and Mk6 are from Book 6, and the Mk2 and Mk4 are new.

Edited March 17, 2022 by No Foes Remain

[WrathOfTheLion]

Love the mix of the burgundy and their old grey in the MK 2 Word Bearers art. I was going to do some shoulderpads that way, I think it's the only way to make some of the decals work that have a black border, instead of the normal black shoulderpads.

 

Now we just need plastic MK II!

Edited March 17, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

With the addition of new Word Bearers & Ultramarines art, them having been prioritised for Praetor releases, and the sudden addition of Argel Tal (plus the previous art we were shown of MkV destroyers which haven't featured in any publications so far), it's feeling increasingly like something Shadow Crusade related is on the horizon


 

Exemplary Battles was a bit dull - the Loremasters article is where it's art.

These are all brand new - and even better, don't match the alleged "leaked" art from a while back that I'm fairly certain is just fan art that's been stolen off of DeviantArt.

 

Interestingly, the leaked Mk6 art is actually consistent with a recent stylistic shift in the illustrations for the AT books, most noticeably with the Warmaster - if I were to guess, it uses 3D models as a basis for the newer art to make the process less resource-intensive

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Iron Hands Fanatic

[WrathOfTheLion]

With the addition of new Word Bearers & Ultramarines art, them having been prioritised for Praetor releases, and the sudden addition of Argel Tal (plus the previous art we were shown of MkV destroyers which haven't featured in any publications so far), it's feeling increasingly like something Shadow Crusade related is on the horizon

I've been postulating that we might see Shadow Crusade for a while now. I'd say that's a pretty good guess. I think that's probably more accurate than jumping all the way to the siege, which I think would be a bit too jarring.

 

If we start seeing more World Eaters stuff pop in, then that's an even bigger sign I think.

[Noserenda]

I suspect its closer to reusing assets from cancelled projects and the new box will be Siege focused, but we will hopefully see at Adepticon i guess? 

[WrathOfTheLion]

I feel like the Siege would be a bit odd because most of the Loyalist legions aren't in it at all.

 

They may move to the siege rather quickly, but it's not where I would start.

 

I guess it doesn't matter to what the box is themed though, as they don't need to follow it with the campaigns. Hopefully we'll see at Adepticon.

Edited March 17, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

I suspect its closer to reusing assets from cancelled projects and the new box will be Siege focused, but we will hopefully see at Adepticon i guess? 

 

yeah, the art was *probably* made before that leaked Mk6 art although that might have more to do with the Mk6 having 3d renders available from the new models

 

I could still see shadow crusade being one of the earlier 'warzone' books that have been rumoured

[jaxom]

Warzone model of releases.

 

Warzone: Terra - Custodes, IF, BA, WS, DA, SoH, IW, DG, WE, EC, TS, NL, AL(?)

 

There are 11/12 legions involved at the Siege, not the worst place to start. Four loyalist legions is almost half of them. The other five could be split into two smaller books.

 

Warzone: 500 Worlds - UM, Sallies, WB, Militia/Cults, more WE

 

Warzone: Outer Rim - RG, IH, more AL, more NL, SW, more DA

[Gorgoff]

I don't want Warzone books. That whole concept sounds horrible and money grabber-ish. I want a rulebook, an army list and a book with rules for every legion and everything they've got and additional books for humies, Mechanicum and a last one for freakstuff like Blackshields, Talon of the Emperor and other agents. That's it.

But don't give me the 40k treatment with dozens of boxes, campaign BS and other stuff I have to buy and wait for to actually play the game.

No thank you.

[jaxom]

I don’t have any true expectations for the actual release. They could do it AT style, they could do it 7 to 8 edition, style, etc. Cynically, one may say, “What nets the most cash?” That isn’t has straightforward. Letting all players buy in at the beginning has merits as does doling put factions.

[Noserenda]

Im most excited by an Index style reset of all the armylists that smooths out some of the bumps and power creep over the years. That initial release is going to set the pace for the rest really, and i hope theyve spent the time to make it good.