GW and pricing, there's a problem.

[Halandaar]

To be honest, I'm sick of hearing the constant wailing about prices.

 

GW can, and do, charge whatever they want for their products, and their continued financial success states very clearly that there is not a problem with that model. They are not selling a staple foodstuff, they are not required to make every product in their highly profitable luxury hobby line affordable to everyone.

 

Prices will continue to go up for as long as the market will support it, and inevitably some people will get left behind. That's okay. It doesn't need to be for everyone all the time.

 

It is down to individuals to make their own judgement on value and buy or not buy accordingly. I wanted Szarekh when he came out, but could not personally stomach the price they wanted for him. So guess what? I didn't buy one. But I didn't then feel the need go on a pointless crusade whining about how everyone else should also refuse to buy one.

[Schlitzaf]

I agree. If somethign too expensive, I won’t buy it. I agrees prices are (too) high. But not much else we can do. My main issue with the price is not even the cost but the fact getting a functional army reasonably can be nigh impossible.

 

Combat Patrol looking promising as it reminded me of the classic battleforce.

2 Troop Squads

1 HQ

1 Cool thing.

 

But I feel they are backing away from that for worse

[Lucerne]

To be honest, I'm sick of hearing the constant wailing about prices.

 

GW can, and do, charge whatever they want for their products, and their continued financial success states very clearly that there is not a problem with that model. They are not selling a staple foodstuff, they are not required to make every product in their highly profitable luxury hobby line affordable to everyone.

 

Prices will continue to go up for as long as the market will support it, and inevitably some people will get left behind. That's okay. It doesn't need to be for everyone all the time.

 

It is down to individuals to make their own judgement on value and buy or not buy accordingly. I wanted Szarekh when he came out, but could not personally stomach the price they wanted for him. So guess what? I didn't buy one. But I didn't then feel the need go on a pointless crusade whining about how everyone else should also refuse to buy one.

It's only pointless if there are lots of diehards that keep buying no matter what and encouraging the negative trends by GW, though? Complaining and putting community pressure to deter support is in everyone's best interests.

 

You could go so far as to argue that choices to support GW's bad business practices are, in some small way, a community-hostile act because it sends the message that there's no problem with gouging. It says, as in the quote, that people that get priced out are disposable not just to GW but to you as a hobbyist.

 

Profit is GW's sole interest. We get nothing out of it. As a community, we have tools to encourage behavior that supports our interests of having more affordable models- and, yes, a "pointless crusade" of social pressure on each other (and indirectly, GW) when confronted with something blatant like the heavy intercessor scam is one of those tools, even something as simple as just saying "this pricing is unreasonable" or "these are alternatives".

 

It's okay to not feel like saying anything, but it seems like crab bucket mentality to say "you shouldn't complain about GW prices, keep your issues to yourself so that nothing changes for the better" in the same breath?

 

Anyway: recast, resellers, and 3D prints. Other than flat out discouraging purchases- and doing so vocally- these are really the only tools the community has for pressuring GW.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Lucerne

[INKS]

If you tired of hearing it then you could also just not read the thread. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

To be honest, I'm sick of hearing the constant wailing about prices.

 

GW can, and do, charge whatever they want for their products, and their continued financial success states very clearly that there is not a problem with that model. They are not selling a staple foodstuff, they are not required to make every product in their highly profitable luxury hobby line affordable to everyone.

 

Prices will continue to go up for as long as the market will support it, and inevitably some people will get left behind. That's okay. It doesn't need to be for everyone all the time.

 

It is down to individuals to make their own judgement on value and buy or not buy accordingly. I wanted Szarekh when he came out, but could not personally stomach the price they wanted for him. So guess what? I didn't buy one. But I didn't then feel the need go on a pointless crusade whining about how everyone else should also refuse to buy one.

It's only pointless if there are lots of diehards that keep buying no matter what and encouraging the negative trends by GW, though? Complaining and putting community pressure to deter support is in everyone's best interests.

 

You could go so far as to argue that choices to support GW's bad business practices are, in some small way, a community-hostile act because it sends the message that there's no problem with gouging. It says, as in the quote, that people that get priced out are disposable not just to GW but to you as a hobbyist.

 

Profit is GW's sole interest. We get nothing out of it. As a community, we have tools to encourage behavior that supports our interests of having more affordable models- and, yes, a "pointless crusade" of social pressure on each other (and indirectly, GW) when confronted with something blatant like the heavy intercessor scam is one of those tools, even something as simple as just saying "this pricing is unreasonable" or "these are alternatives".

 

It's okay to not feel like saying anything, but it seems like crab bucket mentality to say "you shouldn't complain about GW prices, keep your issues to yourself so that nothing changes for the better" in the same breath?

 

Anyway: recast, resellers, and 3D prints. Other than flat out discouraging purchases- and doing so vocally- these are really the only tools the community has for pressuring GW.

Bro the crab bucket is too :cussing real.

[Halandaar]

It's okay to not feel like saying anything, but it seems like crab bucket mentality to say "you shouldn't complain about GW prices, keep your issues to yourself so that nothing changes for the better" in the same breath?

 

No, what I'm saying is "whining achieves nothing, vote with your wallet based on your own determination of what is and isn't acceptable".

 

I'm perfectly capable of drawing my own line in the sand and working within that, finding value where I can and refusing to buy when I can't. The problem with the discourse in this thread is that it seems some of you want to decide for the rest of us what is and is not an acceptable price for a given product and push for community-wide action based on your own personal value assessments.

[AppleCrumble]

A lot of folks in this thread are suggesting that lower sales (whether that’s through a boycott or simply pricing out players) would force GW to reassess and adjust their prices, but it’s worth noting that that’s not what happened with Warhammer Fantasy. GW didn’t look at the low Fantasy sales and slash prices, if anything the game system only became more and more expensive with a greater emphasis placed on larger and larger units, until it was scrapped.  

 

[Dark Shepherd]

 

A lot of folks in this thread are suggesting that lower sales (whether that’s through a boycott or simply pricing out players) would force GW to reassess and adjust their prices, but it’s worth noting that that’s not what happened with Warhammer Fantasy. GW didn’t look at the low Fantasy sales and slash prices, if anything the game system only became more and more expensive with a greater emphasis placed on larger and larger units, until it was scrapped.

That is definitely the danger if (new) people are priced out, they bleed the core base even more.

 

Whining to GW would possibly achieve more than whining here

[Lucerne]

 

It's okay to not feel like saying anything, but it seems like crab bucket mentality to say "you shouldn't complain about GW prices, keep your issues to yourself so that nothing changes for the better" in the same breath?

No, what I'm saying is "whining achieves nothing, vote with your wallet based on your own determination of what is and isn't acceptable".

 

I'm perfectly capable of drawing my own line in the sand and working within that, finding value where I can and refusing to buy when I can't. The problem with the discourse in this thread is that it seems some of you want to decide for the rest of us what is and is not an acceptable price for a given product and push for community-wide action based on your own personal value assessments.

 

 

I mean, I'm going to  be charitable and assume most of the fanbase isn't so far gone that they think these prices for a handful of squads is a particularly healthy state for the hobby to end up in. :p

 

Anyway, you advocate for "say nothing and assume the problem will take care of itself" and the rest of us can point out just how ridiculous this situation and supporting it is, okay? 40k isn't going anywhere.

[Vassakov]

It's  worth noting that the number of people on these boards complaining about prices are a tiny, tiny fraction of the number of players and buyers in the game. The overwhelming majority even of Marine players likely have no idea our humble boards exist and so even if you were able to get every single one of the Fraters to boycott GW... they'd likely chalk it up to statistical variance.

 

I was also recently fascinated by a video by Midwinter Minis who decided to compare prices from the late 90's/early 2000's for similar kits today and he found that actually, prices haven't changed a massive amount - once you account for UK inflation. What has gone up a lot is the character models and there I will say £25.50 for a single, monopose character model feels a little like taking the piss. I also appreciate that that will be of little comfort for international players, especially given GW's frankly baffling currency conversions approach is... sketchy to say the least.

 

I'm genuinely sorry for those who feel like they are being priced out, but the truth is that most luxury hobbies have been creeping up with inflation for a while - just look at the periodic whinging about videogame prices, cinema tickets, any sporting equipment... and yet all of these are in pretty good health (cinemas perhaps notwithstanding given Covid, but we'll see about those!)

[Halandaar]

 

Anyway, you advocate for "say nothing and assume the problem will take care of itself" and the rest of us can point out just how ridiculous this situation and supporting it is, okay? 

 

 

For the third time, seeing as the first two times were obviously too complicated for you, I am not advocating that the "problem" will take care of itself, I am advocating for people to stop buying (i.e. take actual action) if they personally feel that the prices are too high. The core point we are both making is the same; vote with your wallet to show displeasure at prices you object to, because that's how you get through to a profit-making business.

 

However, what I am not prepared to support is a section of the community moralising to me about what does and does not constitute a fair price for any specific product, and determining that anybody prepared to buy a box of Heavy Intercessors (of all things, they're cheaper per model than multiple other infantry units that came before them) is some sort of community-hating corporate shill for doing so. 

 

You can rail against prices and refuse to buy all you like. What you don't get to do is preach at other people about what they should and shouldn't do with their own money with regards to their own hobby. 

 

 

I was also recently fascinated by a video by Midwinter Minis who decided to compare prices from the late 90's/early 2000's for similar kits today and he found that actually, prices haven't changed a massive amount - once you account for UK inflation. 

 

I've made this point a few times in other threads and the typical response amounts to "lol inflation doesn't count".

[Xenith]

 

However, what I am not prepared to support is a section of the community moralising to me about what does and does not constitute a fair price for any specific product, and determining that anybody prepared to buy a box of Heavy Intercessors (of all things, they're cheaper per model than multiple other infantry units that came before them) is some sort of community-hating corporate shill for doing so. 

 

^^ This, a thousand times this. It's one thing to claim you hate the prices/rules/release schedule/whatever, it's another to attack other frater who just want to enjoy the hobby. This corporate shill/GW apologist war-cry will do very little to change anyone's opinion, and is primarily non-constructive. 

 

Everyone has different perceptions of value.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Xenith

[Dark Shepherd]

A lot of the youtube vids/facebook pages that cover 40k have been balking at the heavy intercessor prices (and others) so its not just our beloved little corner.

 

Re minis and inflation Theres also plenty of items that have increased in price way way ahead of ahead of inflation, some have almost doubled in 4 years. The overall cost of playing the game is higher too in terms of the number of books you need and how often theyre changed.

 

Plus their profits have been inflating way ahead of inflation the last few years and real wages/purchasing power in most places has not kept up with inflation

[Special Officer Doofy]

I'm genuinely sorry for those who feel like they are being priced out, but the truth is that most luxury hobbies have been creeping up with inflation for a while - just look at the periodic whinging about videogame prices

 

I'll stop ya there. Atari 2600 came out in 1977 for $199.99, which with inflation is over $800 now. The average game cost $39.99 back then, which would be about $170 now. Games only cost $60 now and the newest systems $500, which they don't even make money on. And they have made far larger strides in quality of the product such as going from Atari all the way to 4k 120fps consoles they have now. The video game industry is far more generous to it's customers than GW could ever hope to be.

[Vassakov]

 

I'm genuinely sorry for those who feel like they are being priced out, but the truth is that most luxury hobbies have been creeping up with inflation for a while - just look at the periodic whinging about videogame prices

 

I'll stop ya there. Atari 2600 came out in 1977 for $199.99, which with inflation is over $800 now. The average game cost $39.99 back then, which would be about $170 now. Games only cost $60 now and the newest systems $500, which they don't even make money on. And they have made far larger strides in quality of the product such as going from Atari all the way to 4k 120fps consoles they have now. The video game industry is far more generous to it's customers than GW could ever hope to be.

 

 

This is my point exactly - people half remember the costs of something from their youth, don't understand how inflation works and then complain about the perceived cost of things. I know the analogy doesn't scan exactly as in reality, video game prices have actually reduced (to say nothing of those who, like me, grew up with things in their youth and now find themselves gainfully employed and with disposable income which somewhat mitigates the perceived price increases. Again though, I am fully aware that I'm lucky to be in this position.)

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

I regret to inform everyone after almost twenty years of fans complaining about prices, fans insisting on a boycott, and fans saying they’re going to recasters/3D printers absolutely nothing has changed. But surely this time will be different!

[Dark Shepherd]

I regret to inform everyone after almost twenty years of fans complaining about prices, fans insisting on a boycott, and fans saying they’re going to recasters/3D printers absolutely nothing has changed. But surely this time will be different!

20 years ago a 3d printer cost $900,000 :)

[Marshal Rohr]

Very true and the trash, spaghetti monster disasters all over Facebook truly are the first wave in wiping out GW.

[Joe]

I highly suspect that there will be a push to legislate /regulate the printing market before long - as it stands there's plenty of infringement going around.

[Halandaar]

I'll stop ya there. Atari 2600 came out in 1977 for $199.99, which with inflation is over $800 now. The average game cost $39.99 back then, which would be about $170 now. Games only cost $60 now and the newest systems $500, which they don't even make money on. And they have made far larger strides in quality of the product such as going from Atari all the way to 4k 120fps consoles they have now. 

 

Sure, but back then your $40 got you a complete game. Now your $60 gets you a half-finished bug-ridden mess which needs a day-0 patch and then a year of paid DLC/Season Pass content to round out the game, which can easily push the cost for that single game well over $100. That's to say nothing of the reams of "optional" DLC and predatory practices like lootboxes with competitive content randomly locked behind them.

 

Consoles themselves don't make money because they're designed as loss-leaders to get people in to the game/DLC marketplace, and both PS and Xbox have pushed digital-only versions of the consoles to lock people in to their respective digital storefronts, where they can obtain the maximum amount of profit from each purchase.

 

So maybe let's not paint the video gaming industry as angelic by comparison.

[Xenith]

 

I'm genuinely sorry for those who feel like they are being priced out, but the truth is that most luxury hobbies have been creeping up with inflation for a while - just look at the periodic whinging about videogame prices

 

I'll stop ya there. Atari 2600 came out in 1977 for $199.99, which with inflation is over $800 now. The average game cost $39.99 back then, which would be about $170 now. Games only cost $60 now and the newest systems $500, which they don't even make money on. And they have made far larger strides in quality of the product such as going from Atari all the way to 4k 120fps consoles they have now. The video game industry is far more generous to it's customers than GW could ever hope to be.

 

 

Well, also don't forget mass price reductions in consumer electronics as technology and manufacturing improves, and videogaming also went from a niche hobby to mainstream mass acceptance. 

 

Admittedly, the injection moulding tech has probably also moved on, but GW refuses to outsource to china for cost reduction, and quality/quantity of models on sprues has increased a lot in the last 2 decades. 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Xenith

[Lucien Eilam]

Printers have come down in price a lot. Digital sculptors, on the level of the Citadel design team and willing to put the thousands of hours in to rip off the entirety of Games Workshop’s product line for free, are apparently a commodity yet to be invented. Still waiting to see anyone get the proportions right even for basic power armour.

 

Thing is, if you have the talent and training to do it at that level, somebody will be willing to pay you a decent living for it. And at that point, you kind of have a vested interest in your work not being reproduced unlimited times for nothing. You probably also have higher aspirations for your creativity than ripping off other designers. So instead, we get the output of enthusiastic amateurs who probably wouldn’t even get an interview in Lenton.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Lucien Eilam

[Halandaar]

Printers have come down in price a lot. Digital sculptors, on the level of the Citadel design team and willing to put the thousands of hours in to rip off the entirety of Games Workshop’s product line for free, are apparently a commodity yet to be invented. Still waiting to see anyone get the proportions right even for basic power armour.

 

Thing is, if you have the talent and training to do it at that level, somebody will be willing to pay you a decent living for it. And at that point, you kind of have a vested interest in your work not being reproduced unlimited times for nothing. So instead, you get the output of enthusiastic amateurs who probably wouldn’t even get an interview in Lenton.

Agree for the most part, but there are some very talented people out there making a living via Patreon, Kickstarter, Cults3D, Shapeways and the like. Notably though, the people who are good enough to charge money are also not directly recreating GW product, they are doing stuff that's compatible with or inspired by it.

[mughi3]

With the quality and affordability of 3d printing now, in another 5 years i think GW won't be even making models themselves except perhaps a few special items since they could just sell STL files without all the overhead involved with in house production. 

 

I also know lots of players who have been priced out of the game, have a large enough collection,  or just print their own minis that they will never buy another GW model again. 

[Rik Lightstar]

Quality and affordability of 3d Printers are only a part of the equation though.

 

If you want to print a full army that's quite a lot of print time at reasonable quality, you need a decent amount of space for the setup and it needs to be well ventilated.

 

The printed results need curing and cleaning up too.

 

It's like saying Domino's Pizza will go out of business because ovens are affordable. Sure it's WAY cheaper to make your own pizza and you get to choose exactly which toppings you have. All you have to do is buy the ingredients and then spend 40 minutes preparing and cooking it. Yet somehow pizza delivery is still a thriving industry.

 

People are often far more prepared to spend money than time to get a finished product. This can be clearly seen in commission painting services, for the amount people spend to have an army painted they could get a really high standard of tuition and produce the results themselves. Yet again painting commission services are popping up all over the place.

 

Rik