GW and pricing, there's a problem.

[techsoldaten]

Printers have come down in price a lot. Digital sculptors, on the level of the Citadel design team and willing to put the thousands of hours in to rip off the entirety of Games Workshop’s product line for free, are apparently a commodity yet to be invented. Still waiting to see anyone get the proportions right even for basic power armour.

 

Thing is, if you have the talent and training to do it at that level, somebody will be willing to pay you a decent living for it. And at that point, you kind of have a vested interest in your work not being reproduced unlimited times for nothing. You probably also have higher aspirations for your creativity than ripping off other designers. So instead, we get the output of enthusiastic amateurs who probably wouldn’t even get an interview in Lenton.

 

Eh... that assessment seems dated. You're assuming a person made the model.

 

I'm not convinced most of the models I see in various 3D portals were sculpted by a human. You can use a tool like Blender to examine the edges of curved surfaces, 3D scans tend to concentrate vertex points around these edges for true fidelity to the original. The other thing to watch out for is mold lines, they tend to be preserved in high quality scans even if they were scraped off the original model.

 

More than a few of the 3D models I've seen online have these traits. Less true for sites like Thingiverse, more true for sites like Cults. (Don't want to go too far into IP infringing territory.) 

 

My Einscan 3D scanner is accurate within a tenth of a millimeter. Turns a physical product into digital in about 5 seconds. At home, I have a Sol. While the cost was on the high end for consumer products, it's capable of about the same quality.

 

While I don't know how widespread this is, it's theoretically possible to walk into a store with a handheld scanner, scan the units you want, and print them when you get home. 

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

 

 

I was also recently fascinated by a video by Midwinter Minis who decided to compare prices from the late 90's/early 2000's for similar kits today and he found that actually, prices haven't changed a massive amount - once you account for UK inflation. What has gone up a lot is the character models and there I will say £25.50 for a single, monopose character model feels a little like taking the piss. I also appreciate that that will be of little comfort for international players, especially given GW's frankly baffling currency conversions approach is... sketchy to say the least.

 

 

 

Yes, some price changes are only slightly above the inflation, some items are even cheaper (I mean, dreadnoughts after transition to plastic cost nearly the same amount of GBP as in early 2000's).  But if we stay with the Primaris, they are in general more expensive than the OldMarines (e.g. comparing Intercessors to Tacticals or Bladeguards to Termies) while  you still use similar number of them. Remember also that for the international players you have to count in not only the exchange rates but also inflation in their countries.

For me the biggest problem right now are the prices of Primaris vehicles. When I think that Repulsor Executioner costs the same or more than RFM's 1:35 Tiger with full interior and workable tracks I just can't justify to myself buying it.

 

[Lucien Eilam]

Video game comparisons only highlight the futility of trying to impose how you value products on other people.
 
With discount, a AAA video game close to launch will usually cost me about 50% more than a box of those Heavy Intercessors would.
 
Sprue to table-top, I reckon I spend an average of 4-5 hours per infantry model on cleanup, assembly and painting. That process is for me the most enjoyable part of the hobby.
 
Video games that I’ll get more than 20-30 hours of entertainment from are few and far between. I must have spent thousands over the years on games where I was done with the main single-player campaign after more like 10-15.
 
I could still be bringing those Heavy Intercessors to games 10 years from now, maybe 20+.
 
10 years from now, that video game will have had its servers shutdown and they’ll be trying to sell me a remake that’s destroyed all the character of the original graphics for £10-15 more than it cost the first time.
 
The value I get from a thirty quid box of toy soldiers versus almost any £45 video game is so much greater it’s almost incalculable.
 
Maybe you hate painting and assembly. Maybe you’re always chasing the latest tournament meme list. Maybe those Heavy Intercessors are disposable playing pieces you’ll relegate to the back of the cupboard immediately after the next Chapter Approved release. Maybe the only video games you buy are those with hundreds of hours of replayability.
 
And if so, fair play to you. Just, vote with your wallet, not mine.

 

Eh... that assessment seems dated.

 
I’m not assuming anything, I’m saying what I’m seeing. If it’s that easy to copy the real thing, why are so many people using their 3D printers for mis-proportioned, obviously third-party knock-offs? Ignorance? Bad taste?

[sarabando]

Printers have come down in price a lot. Digital sculptors, on the level of the Citadel design team and willing to put the thousands of hours in to rip off the entirety of Games Workshop’s product line for free, are apparently a commodity yet to be invented. Still waiting to see anyone get the proportions right even for basic power armour.

 

Thing is, if you have the talent and training to do it at that level, somebody will be willing to pay you a decent living for it. And at that point, you kind of have a vested interest in your work not being reproduced unlimited times for nothing. You probably also have higher aspirations for your creativity than ripping off other designers. So instead, we get the output of enthusiastic amateurs who probably wouldn’t even get an interview in Lenton.

then you havent been looking hard enough because i have files that are 1/1 replicas for pretty much every marine kit released. There are files for minis that havent even been released because the guys can just eyeball them. As for the giant balls of filament you see as failures sure there are a few but you dont seem to be worried about the resin printers that are putting out stuff from shoulder pads to superheavies in detail that would make FW blush.

 

On the comparison to video games remember aswell that the £60 game that needs £100 worth of DLC will be £20 in a years time. 10 cadians now costs more than it did at release b a large factor.

[Lucien Eilam]

then you havent been looking hard enough because i have files that are 1/1 replicas for pretty much every marine kit released. There are files for minis that havent even been released because the guys can just eyeball them. As for the giant balls of filament you see as failures sure there are a few but you dont seem to be worried about the resin printers that are putting out stuff from shoulder pads to superheavies in detail that would make FW blush.

 

Why would I be worried? I don’t have shares in GW.

 

And if you’re getting 1:1 replicas for free, what are you whinging about in this topic?

[sarabando]

 

then you havent been looking hard enough because i have files that are 1/1 replicas for pretty much every marine kit released. There are files for minis that havent even been released because the guys can just eyeball them. As for the giant balls of filament you see as failures sure there are a few but you dont seem to be worried about the resin printers that are putting out stuff from shoulder pads to superheavies in detail that would make FW blush.

 

Why would I be worried? I don’t have shares in GW.

 

And if you’re getting 1:1 replicas for free, what are you whinging about in this topic?

 

because id rather buy them from a UK company. just not from a company that likes to piss in my pocket and tell me its raining.

[Lord Marshal]

Prices will continue to go up for as long as the market will support it, and inevitably some people will get left behind. That's okay. It doesn't need to be for everyone all the time.

 

"Warhammer is for everyone, except poor people."

[Halandaar]

"Warhammer is for everyone, except poor people."

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

It's worth noting that the number of people on these boards complaining about prices are a tiny, tiny fraction of the number of players and buyers in the game. The overwhelming majority even of Marine players likely have no idea our humble boards exist and so even if you were able to get every single one of the Fraters to boycott GW... they'd likely chalk it up to statistical variance.

 

I was also recently fascinated by a video by Midwinter Minis who decided to compare prices from the late 90's/early 2000's for similar kits today and he found that actually, prices haven't changed a massive amount - once you account for UK inflation. What has gone up a lot is the character models and there I will say £25.50 for a single, monopose character model feels a little like taking the piss. I also appreciate that that will be of little comfort for international players, especially given GW's frankly baffling currency conversions approach is... sketchy to say the least.

 

I'm genuinely sorry for those who feel like they are being priced out, but the truth is that most luxury hobbies have been creeping up with inflation for a while - just look at the periodic whinging about videogame prices, cinema tickets, any sporting equipment... and yet all of these are in pretty good health (cinemas perhaps notwithstanding given Covid, but we'll see about those!)

get people to agree, then spread the word in other forums and social media platforms.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Video game comparisons only highlight the futility of trying to impose how you value products on other people.

 

With discount, a AAA video game close to launch will usually cost me about 50% more than a box of those Heavy Intercessors would.

 

Sprue to table-top, I reckon I spend an average of 4-5 hours per infantry model on cleanup, assembly and painting. That process is for me the most enjoyable part of the hobby.

 

Video games that I’ll get more than 20-30 hours of entertainment from are few and far between. I must have spent thousands over the years on games where I was done with the main single-player campaign after more like 10-15.

 

I could still be bringing those Heavy Intercessors to games 10 years from now, maybe 20+.

 

10 years from now, that video game will have had its servers shutdown and they’ll be trying to sell me a remake that’s destroyed all the character of the original graphics for £10-15 more than it cost the first time.

 

The value I get from a thirty quid box of toy soldiers versus almost any £45 video game is so much greater it’s almost incalculable.

 

Maybe you hate painting and assembly. Maybe you’re always chasing the latest tournament meme list. Maybe those Heavy Intercessors are disposable playing pieces you’ll relegate to the back of the cupboard immediately after the next Chapter Approved release. Maybe the only video games you buy are those with hundreds of hours of replayability.

 

And if so, fair play to you. Just, vote with your wallet, not mine.

 

Eh... that assessment seems dated.

I’m not assuming anything, I’m saying what I’m seeing. If it’s that easy to copy the real thing, why are so many people using their 3D printers for mis-proportioned, obviously third-party knock-offs? Ignorance? Bad taste?

what video games are you buying that cost $90+?

[Sky Potato]

Console games are about £55-£65 in the UK on release for the latest gen consoles

[techsoldaten]

 

Eh... that assessment seems dated.

 

I’m not assuming anything, I’m saying what I’m seeing. If it’s that easy to copy the real thing, why are so many people using their 3D printers for mis-proportioned, obviously third-party knock-offs? Ignorance? Bad taste?

 

Wow, you must really be keeping an eye out. Good for you.

 

Can you tell me where to find all these misproportioned third party knock offs you're seeing? How about pictures - can you show me what they look like?

[Lord Marshal]

 

"Warhammer is for everyone, except poor people."

 

 

 

See, when people talk about 'gatekeeping' in the hobby they usually refer to it in the context of sexism, sometimes homophobia, maybe even WAAC'ers stomping all over newcomers, but the most pervasive version I see is this kind of smug attitude that "Feth you, I got mine" with regards to pricing. 

 

And you'll never guess why WHFB died - it wasn't the rules, it wasn't the lore, it wasn't the setting, it was because the game became so impenetrable for people to get into in terms of pricing. "That'll be £240 worth of Core units, sir." Sure, GW stuff is and probably always will be expensive, but dismissing that as 'fine' just because you can afford it isn't doing the overall hobby any favours.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Lord Marshal

[Joe]

Price and figure bloat was certainly the largest contributing factor, however it's worth keeping in mind the game hadn't really kept up with the times - mass-battle games had fallen out of favour in lieu of the skirmish format and entry into the system was fairly daunting due to the core rulebook being exceedingly large. I think it's bad design when a wargame requires you to thumb through several hundred pages worth of rules to get into it, which is one reason I generally appreciate the LOTR SBG; it was much more accessible than WHFB.

 

I've lost track of the number of hobbies I've wished were cheaper over the years, though. Airsoft is the big one that comes to mind for me right now. Getting into that at any reasonable level is going to set you back at least £600-800. I'll still buy into expensive hobbies because I want to pursue them but that doesn't mean I lose the right to complain every now and then about the price - particularly when they could, in many circumstances, be cheaper.

[Gederas]

With discount, a AAA video game close to launch will usually cost me about 50% more than a box of those Heavy Intercessors would.

what video games are you buying that cost $90+?

$60 base on average, plus all the DLC... Crusader Kings II costs in total close to 120 or more.

[Lucerne]

It's so cool how GW has steam sales with huge discounts.

 

Oh.

[Noserenda]

Eh, speaking as a very much poor person its still very dooable if you budget, buy second hand and dont get obsessed with buying the new shiny, *cough* and have years of backlog to rework or sell *cough* Though ill be honest a few of the recent price rises have stopped me buying big models and characters, squads are usually alright.

Tbh the most galling thing is folks posting a giant heap of models on social media and saying some variant of "Whoops my wallet slipped" its like "Yeah, we get it, you are wealthy and have poor impulse control" but eh, let people enjoy things. I figure anyone coming onto a thread about prices knew what they were gonna read ofc :P 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

With discount, a AAA video game close to launch will usually cost me about 50% more than a box of those Heavy Intercessors would.

what video games are you buying that cost $90+?

$60 base on average, plus all the DLC... Crusader Kings II costs in total close to 120 or more.

i haven't paid for DLC since like '09 lol

[Halandaar]

See, when people talk about 'gatekeeping' in the hobby they usually refer to it in the context of sexism, sometimes homophobia, maybe even WAAC'ers stomping all over newcomers, but the most pervasive version I see is this kind of smug attitude that "Feth you, I got mine" with regards to pricing. 

 

And you'll never guess why WHFB died - it wasn't the rules, it wasn't the lore, it wasn't the setting, it was because the game became so impenetrable for people to get into in terms of pricing. "That'll be £240 worth of Core units, sir." Sure, GW stuff is and probably always will be expensive, but dismissing that as 'fine' just because you can afford it isn't doing the overall hobby any favours.

 

 

First i was the GW apologist, now i'm the alright-jack landed gentry sneering down on the hobby peasants. It's really quite amazing what people will choose to believe rather than just accept that my opinion differs from yours.

 

I'm a normal person, earning a normal salary, living in one of the most expensive areas of the country, I have a young daughter with all the costs that entails, and various other demands on my finances. That all means I have to manage my disposable income accordingly and stick to a budget;  if I want something that falls outside that budget, I have to either save for it, make savings elsewhere, or raise extra money by selling stuff out of the pile of shame. I've had proxies, third-party alternatives, 3D prints, and I buy GW products from third-party sellers at a discount, second-hand, or not at all.

 

When I talk about people being inevitably being left behind by the increased cost of a luxury hobby, I include myself in that. So you can take your assumptions about what I can afford and how it affects my outlook on pricing, and shove them.

 

The difference between me and some people in this thread is that I don't have a sense of entitlement that demands GW make their product pricing conform to my personal financial circumstances.

 

Honestly it feels like some of you would castigate Porsche as price-gouging for not selling you a 911 for the price of a Ford Fiesta, instead of just accepting that you can afford one and not the other.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

See, when people talk about 'gatekeeping' in the hobby they usually refer to it in the context of sexism, sometimes homophobia, maybe even WAAC'ers stomping all over newcomers, but the most pervasive version I see is this kind of smug attitude that "Feth you, I got mine" with regards to pricing.

 

And you'll never guess why WHFB died - it wasn't the rules, it wasn't the lore, it wasn't the setting, it was because the game became so impenetrable for people to get into in terms of pricing. "That'll be £240 worth of Core units, sir." Sure, GW stuff is and probably always will be expensive, but dismissing that as 'fine' just because you can afford it isn't doing the overall hobby any favours.

 

First i was the GW apologist, now i'm the alright-jack landed gentry sneering down on the hobby peasants. It's really quite amazing what people will choose to believe rather than just accept that my opinion differs from yours.

 

I'm a normal person, earning a normal salary, living in one of the most expensive areas of the country, I have a young daughter with all the costs that entails, and various other demands on my finances. That all means I have to manage my disposable income accordingly and stick to a budget; if I want something that falls outside that budget, I have to either save for it, make savings elsewhere, or raise extra money by selling stuff out of the pile of shame. I've had proxies, third-party alternatives, 3D prints, and I buy GW products from third-party sellers at a discount, second-hand, or not at all.

 

When I talk about people being inevitably being left behind by the increased cost of a luxury hobby, I include myself in that. So you can take your assumptions about what I can afford and how it affects my outlook on pricing, and shove them.

 

The difference between me and some people in this thread is that I don't have a sense of entitlement that demands GW make their product pricing conform to my personal financial circumstances.

 

Honestly it feels like some of you would castigate Porsche as price-gouging for not selling you a 911 for the price of a Ford Fiesta, instead of just accepting that you can afford one and not the other.

You’re Porsche analogy is wrong though. People aren’t complaining that GW don’t sell everything for cheap. People are upset that it was a hobby they used to be able to afford but increasingly (and with no change to their personal circumstances) they can no longer afford it.

 

A better analogy would be being upset that you currently own a Ford Fiesta but when it comes time to get a new car you can no longer afford another Ford Fiesta because Ford has increased the price way beyond your means, even though your means haven’t changed which means the only problem is Ford increasing the price too much.

 

Also you’re talking about people who love the hobby and have invested lots of time and money and love into it. To say it’s simply ok that those people are being left behind and can no longer participate in something they love purely because of price rises comes across as pretty callous.

[Karhedron]

And you'll never guess why WHFB died - it wasn't the rules, it wasn't the lore, it wasn't the setting, it was because the game became so impenetrable for people to get into in terms of pricing. "That'll be £240 worth of Core units, sir." Sure, GW stuff is and probably always will be expensive, but dismissing that as 'fine' just because you can afford it isn't doing the overall hobby any favours.

There are cheaper ways into the hobby though. Indomitus may have been a limited release but it contained 2 1000 point armies for £120 (plus rules). You can still get cheap starter sets. The command edition has smaller armies but comes with terrain too. Yes, specific units may be highly priced but you can build various complete armies for under £240 if you wish.

 

Just speaking personally, I used to play Fantasy and it was the rules, not the pricing that killed it for me. 8th edition changed the balance of the game so much that horde armies became nearly unplayable (I ran Greenskins and Undead). It was all about Cavalry or big monsters. I could afford the new units that came out in 8th if I wanted them but I stopped wanting to play. AoS pricing is not dissimilar to 40K but it is selling much better than WFB was in late 8th edition so I think rules have a bigger impact on sales than you are giving credit for.

[Halandaar]

A better analogy would be being upset that you currently own a Ford Fiesta but when it comes time to get a new car you can no longer afford another Ford Fiesta because Ford has increased the price way beyond your means, even though your means haven’t changed which means the only problem is Ford increasing the price too much.

 

But as has been pointed out multiple times, the cost of a typical 2021 GW kit, designed by people on 2021 salaries and produced on 2021 manufacturing costs has not actually significantly outstripped it's 2010 equivalent by more than the rate of UK inflation(*), people simply don't want to hear it, they want to be able to buy that 2021 Fiesta at 2010 Fiesta prices.

 

Also you’re talking about people who love the hobby and have invested lots of time and money and love into it. To say it’s simply ok that those people are being left behind and can no longer participate in something they love purely because of price rises comes across as pretty callous.

 

"Can no longer participate" - bit hyperbolic don't you think? Their existing collections are rendered unusable by the price of Heavy Intercessors, are they? The price of Heavy Intercessors is so outrageous that people can't decide to save a little and buy a single box over two months, where previously they could buy a box of every month? 

 

It's one thing to say that it's unfortunate some people feel they are being priced out. But it's quite another to suggest that they can no longer participate in the hobby at all.

 

 

 

(*) With the exception of infantry-sized single characters, which absolutely have spiraled in price.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Halandaar

[Rik Lightstar]

It's also worth pointing out that GW do have a game in their "stable" that can be played at its fullest most meta chasing level for £20 a month. The "core box" for each season is £50 and there are 6 Warbands at £25 each, plus typically 2 "non-warband" expansions a season at around £15,  putting your total annual "subscription" at £230 RRP.

 

To my mind Warhammer Underworlds is by far their best "Competitive" game, it has a varied, constantly changing "landscape" with each season and each warband release, the models are fantastic, it's a far tighter rule system which is great for tournaments.

 

For me 40k is a "beer and pretzels" hanging out with mates game, there's no need to chase the meta on it. If a new unit takes my fancy I'll grab it but that will be most based on aesthetic and fluff appeal.

 

Their biggest failure to my mind has been that they haven't pushed Kill Teams or even the smaller 40k game sizes as the preferred tournament format.

 

Rik

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

A better analogy would be being upset that you currently own a Ford Fiesta but when it comes time to get a new car you can no longer afford another Ford Fiesta because Ford has increased the price way beyond your means, even though your means haven’t changed which means the only problem is Ford increasing the price too much.

But as has been pointed out multiple times, the cost of a typical 2021 GW kit, designed by people on 2021 salaries and produced on 2021 manufacturing costs has not actually significantly outstripped it's 2010 equivalent by more than the rate of UK inflation(*), people simply don't want to hear it, they want to be able to buy that 2021 Fiesta at 2010 Fiesta prices.

Also you’re talking about people who love the hobby and have invested lots of time and money and love into it. To say it’s simply ok that those people are being left behind and can no longer participate in something they love purely because of price rises comes across as pretty callous.

"Can no longer participate" - bit hyperbolic don't you think? Their existing collections are rendered unusable by the price of Heavy Intercessors, are they? The price of Heavy Intercessors is so outrageous that people can't decide to save a little and buy a single box over two months, where previously they could buy a box of every month?

 

It's one thing to say that it's unfortunate some people feel they are being priced out. But it's quite another to suggest that they can no longer participate in the hobby at all.

 

 

 

(*) With the exception of infantry-sized single characters, which absolutely have spiraled in price.

If their participation in the hobby revolves around collecting and painting rather than gaming then they are unable to participate if they’ve been priced out of buying new models.

 

As for the prices themselves, the inflation argument might have some legs if it wasn’t for the old kits. Older kits which were designed years (sometimes decades) ago and have long since recouped their development/set up costs are still going up in price. The profit margin on some of those old kits must now be insane but they still keep putting them up. Inflation doesn’t hold as a justification for the year on year price increases.

[Marshal Rohr]

Guys, it’s been 48 hours, and the prices are still the same. I don’t think it’s working. Do we need to print the models at the same time we tweet about GW being expensive? Maybe increases comments of ‘3D Printer goes brrrrr’ on the Facebook announcements from Warhammer Official? I’m just seeing all of this energy and don’t understand why GW isn’t responding to our multiple pages of discussion.