GW and pricing, there's a problem.

[Firedrake Cordova]

I'm thinking something like "buy 3 troops and get a free elite/hq (of equal or lesser value)" would be a good way to get people back on their webstore from independents which is where they make their best margins. 

They used to do something similar with the Skullz campaign and similar, where you got a card that was filled in with your name and army, and then stamped every time you built and painted something. As you reached certain points, you got free/reduced things. It helped concentrate you in terms of collecting something, you also got a bit of a discount, the cost was spread out making collecting a new army more palatable, and it also made you keep going back to the shop.

[Lord Marshal]

Star Wars Legion is VERY similarly priced tbh

 

 

The difference is, whilst some other games may have similar pricing for individual boxes you need a lot less for a standard sized game than you do with AoS or 40k.

 

Just about every non-GW game also has it's rules available for free these days, which is quite a considerable saving when you consider how much GW has been pushing it's Dead Trees = Money strategy very hard over the past few years. I can't think of one game which expects you to pay for a book of points changes either.

 

A Song of Ice & Fire prices the typical 12-model unit at £35 RRP, but you need far fewer of those boxes (and the Starter Sets usually include most of your army) versus the equivalent from GW. Marvel Crisis Protocol is another example, where a typical box is x2 32mm models for £30, but your average game might need five models total and similarly to ASOI&F their starter sets contain most of what's necessary.

 

Then you get the afore mentioned Bolt Action where they literally sell 1000pt (standard sized) armies for £75 RRP. Of course historical wargaming has a lot more competition due to the 'public domain' that is literal human history, but that just says something by itself.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Lord Marshal

[Noserenda]

Most historical minis have much, much lower production values than the average gw kit though, which is why they are cheaper. Great for massed ranks though :D 

I never really bought the "overall armies are cheaper" argument though, the minis cost what they cost and everything else is just how much the company wants to push their margins. I mean you can look at the Stargrave stuff which provides huge numbers of minis for a skirmish game for pennies.

[LameBeard]

I think we shouldn't forget about rules and lore and how that's factored in. Like in X-wing you buy rules+model together in the box I think, a bit like an Underworlds Warband? Not sure how it works with Star Wars Legion, but I saw a "downed AT-ST" for $50 (USD). That's a terrain piece - a broken scout walker big enough to hide a few dudes behind. Doesn't scream 'massive value' at me, but maybe I'm missing something there.

 

It is possible to play Age of Sigmar with free core rules and warscrolls, and I think GW deserve some credit for moving in this direction.

 

Charging for a points update I agree is cheeky. I mean you are basically admitting you got the balance wrong in your original publication, so charging for the chance to correct it? I hope a free pdf will be available at least.

[Karhedron]

Multi-buy discounts or complete cheap army boxes would appeal to us for obvious reasons but what is in it for GW? If they can sell their output at their current price point (as evidenced by the fact they don't do stock clearance sales), what is the incentive to sell for less? It is not as if they will make more money since they can't sell more than they can make.

[Lord Marshal]

I think we shouldn't forget about rules and lore and how that's factored in. Like in X-wing you buy rules+model together in the box I think, a bit like an Underworlds Warband? Not sure how it works with Star Wars Legion, but I saw a "downed AT-ST" for $50 (USD). That's a terrain piece - a broken scout walker big enough to hide a few dudes behind. Doesn't scream 'massive value' at me, but maybe I'm missing something there.

 

It is possible to play Age of Sigmar with free core rules and warscrolls, and I think GW deserve some credit for moving in this direction.

 

 

 

It's technically possible to play with the core rules and warscrolls, but let's face it, how many people would actually do that or be expected by their local store/club to keep playing that way for long? 

[LameBeard]

@Karhedron - I think there is a difference here. I think the 'no clearance sales' policy works for GW because it means there is no point the customer waiting for the special offer - you may as well buy now or risk a price rise / stock issue.  But not everything (in normal, non-Covid times) sells out super-quick, so they do actually make more than they sell.  Someone going online or in-store really might turn a 1 - 2 box purchase into a 2 - 3 box purchase with the incentive. Especially if it's (say) the free character model, it doesn't add so much to the painting backlog.

 

I see this as only an evolution of the current pricing model. I feel Combat Patrols are reasonable value, Precept Maniple, pretty darn good value thanks, but it's a little bit arbitrary what's in the box, for no obvious reason. Yes I guess there is a little logistical advantage for GW in having "one big box, ready to ship" but it's not massive.

 

@Lord Marshal - if you do skip the army book, you put yourself at a disadvantage, missing out on the faction-wide abilities and free (in points) terrain etc, so I don't think anyone would complain. I have seen people in this forum describe GW's pricing as 'near predatory'. I think that only makes sense if you feel new people have been brought into the hobby on the basis of a cheap starter set, then find themselves after their investment, having to shell out regularly for 'the latest hotness'.  Again, I'm not convinced by this story - it is possible to dip your toes in the water and start more slowly, in a more relaxed fashion. If it gets too expensive for your tastes, you'll be able to sell most of that kit on and get a lot of your money back, and hopefully you had some fun along the way.

 

Here I am sounding like the GW apologist, but I say again, I'm not impressed by the value they offer most of the time, and I rarely buy from them. Back in 3rd edition WFB we had pretty much ALL the armies in one book, and I'd have that any day over this nonsense of having to buy a Space Marine Codex and a Chapter Supplement and having to do it all over again every 2 years.

Edited May 26, 2021 by LameBeard

[MegaVolt87]

Unpopular opinion- combat patrol boxes are great because after you total up the infantry and character costs the included vehicle works out basically free. The obvious ones are the SM ones with a repulsor. I don't think GW sits on much inventory, I would imagine GW know how many kits to sit on without wasting storage space. There are many arcane formula the accountomancers use to calculate the optimal holding inventory of each and every product. The selling fast tab I believe is the response to manufacturing disruptions because of the pandemic. Available while stocks last is them trying to flog off limited/ collector's items that haven't sold. Using that particular category triggers FOMO to clear that inventory lot(s). 

[Billy the Squid]

Unpopular opinion- combat patrol boxes are great because after you total up the infantry and character costs the included vehicle works out basically free. The obvious ones are the SM ones with a repulsor. I don't think GW sits on much inventory, I would imagine GW know how many kits to sit on without wasting storage space. There are many arcane formula the accountomancers use to calculate the optimal holding inventory of each and every product. The selling fast tab I believe is the response to manufacturing disruptions because of the pandemic. Available while stocks last is them trying to flog off limited/ collector's items that haven't sold. Using that particular category triggers FOMO to clear that inventory lot(s). 

 

I'd put money on GW using JIT for manufacturing and inventory.

[MithrilForge]

I understand the points from all posters here, we all have to individually decide whether we want to keep paying these increasing prices or simply forego the hobby altogether...

I myself have been kind of forced to decide... married with a kid etc... Wage not going up at the same rate as GW's mini's 

I have recently chosen to sell off 5 of my budding 40K armies and keep only 2 ... and funnily enough starting a WHFB 8th Ed army cause all my mates have full armies and rule books... and all i needed to do was get a few cheaper start collecting boxes and some square bases and i'm set.... 

 

I realised i was priced out when I first saw marine clam pack characters going up to $55 & then $75 (Australian costs).... Now when i buy it's with the thoughts of bang for my buck...

I don't hate GW, i hate what's happening with the increased prices and cash grabs with apps and attempts at streaming services etc etc... but that is the nature of the beast and MY way of tackling this problem has been chosen...

 

Warhammer still is for everyone...it's just a matter of "how much Warhammer you can afford"... 

 

Mithril 

[Waking Dreamer]

I don't like the idea of having to pay for balance patches Chapter Approved, if I already paid for the full game Codex for my army.

 

The concept of the game company knowing there are serious imbalances with their rules / performance issues in their "game system", while expecting the player base to continue on with known issues for 12+ months, only to pay up for the patch when it arrives - which may or may not fix the current issues, or be completely outdated upon arrival is...

 

And I know 9E is by far the most speedy when it comes to "balance patches", but how long has it been since Codex Space Marines were given the relevant +1 Wound, and +1S to Force weapons, when Chaos SM and GK are still supposed to play with majorly outdated rules. And now is the time when Codex Space Marine players are criticising their rules / performance patches need updating again...sheesh.

[Waking Dreamer]

And yeah, as an insight for the model pricing for my army, if want to expand my army collection of vehicles/transports, I'm codex limited to purchasing older models...such as Stormravens and land raiders, which as mentioned before by others, has gone up in price - and then bloated even more, with the crazy overseas conversion rate. So, I totally understand other members here when they say they are seeing themselves getting priced out before their very eyes.

[Brother Tyler]

I would love to see the marketing segmentation, business model, and business strategy that Games Workshop use - not what different players think they are based on inferences. I'm sure they're amazingly more complex than most of us understand. Lacking these, I'm left to infer what they might be (and I'm on the FOMO and JIT logistics train).

Ultimately, however, I'm left with the basic decisions of any consumer. The overall cost of the WH40K hobby has increased. This isn't just the price of the models and books. It also includes the more rapid turnover in editions, the number of books needed to play, new/additional models (for some of us this is about remaining competitive, for others it's about cool new models), etc. Changes in my life have also necessitated changes in my hobby expenditures. When I was young and single and had loads of disposable income (or I wasn't saving as much as I should have ), it was easy to buy anything and everything. Now that I'm older, have kids, have a house payment, put more in savings and investments, and I don't have nearly as much time for the hobby, my hobby expenditures have gone way down. This is in spite of wanting all of the shiny new toys.

For me, the increased cost in the hobby makes it easier for me to not purchase as much. Besides, I have shelves of plastic and resin that I need to get to before I resume buying models (I'm pretty sure I'll be dead before all of this stuff is painted). That's just a result of the limitations on my personal time. If the stuff was a lot cheaper, I'd probably just have more unpainted stuff (i.e., wasted money). YMMV

As for the suggested boycott, it's a fool's errand. In order for a boycott to be successful you would have to convince a significant portion of the consumer base to participate; and everyone would have to be willing to participate over a much longer period of time than two weeks. A boycott would have to last months. The number of active participants here at the B&C is just a fraction of the people that you would need - less than 5%. Moreover, the number of active participants here that would be willing to participate in such a boycott is much smaller, probably pushing it down to less than 1%. Even if you got people to participate in a boycott, a significant number would stop that participation long before any real impact would be made - partly because GW would release some models that they really want and they wouldn't want to miss the opportunity to get them, especially if they perceive that the models would help the competitiveness of their army. GW's apparent FOMO strategy is a great pre-emptive counter to any theoretical boycott.

Each of us is in a different position, with different available resources, different things that we want, different amounts that we think are reasonable to spend on the hobby. It's not for any of us to dictate to anyone else what is reasonable (though I'm sure that we can all agree that we'd love to pay less). In the end, we each have to make the decision that's right for our individual circumstances.

[Lord Marshal]

I remember the days where you’d buy the new battalion box, and they’d throw in a codex for free, or shops would have a BOGO tank box sale.

 

Those days are as gone as AOL instant messenger, but it’s still nice to remember.

 

I remember when literally the same Cadian Shock Troop box that's now £22.50 for 10 was £15 for 20 (RRP). So much for inflation.

 

I'm sure the Upgrade Sprue will push it to at least the £25 mark.

[Xenith]

Well, those days of halve the models, double the price were in the Dark Days of the end of Kirby's tenure (2012 - 2014?) where he was flailing around just to stay in the same place - the same period saw £30 for 10 Witch Elves and the halving of other boxes like Dire Avengers also - I recall they went from ~£22.50 for 10 to £20.50 for 5. 

 

This was on top of yearly general price hikes of ~10 - 15%.

 

As I recall, GW haven't done anything that shady since then?

 

They seem to have reduced the intensity of [yearly] price hikes, at least, however are front-loading that onto the cost of the models. That said, they're doing way more reduced cost boxed sets that before, like, infinitely more, and at decent value. 

 

I doubt we'd have ever seen a box with ~50% off (piety and pain) under Kirby. That said, these have increased from ~£65 (Tooth and Claw?) to ~£165 (Blood of the Phoenix, testing the waters with 2 new HQ's, a massive failure) before settling down at ~£105. 

 

Again, my view is that we as gamers only have ourselves to blame, so I guess you can put me in that camp, though for different reasons. With all these new limited release kits like Indomitus, Paraih nexus etc. I believe GW are testing the waters to see what the ebay price for these kits like bladeguard, Heavy Intercessors is, basically what people are willing to pay, they then price the subsequent mass release accordingly. 

[Halandaar]

I doubt we'd have ever seen a box with ~50% off (piety and pain) under Kirby. That said, these have increased from ~£65 (Tooth and Claw?) to ~£165 (Blood of the Phoenix, testing the waters with 2 new HQ's, a massive failure) before settling down at ~£105. 

 

Blood of the Phoenix was by no means the first box with 2 new HQs in it (even Tooth and Claw, the other box you cited had two new HQs and a new unit), and it also wasn't quite that expensive; £140.

 

It was definitely an experiment to see how much people would be prepared to pay for a box like that, and it was a failure. Not because of the price, mind. Both the Titanicus Grand Master Edition and Necromunda Dark Uprising were significantly more expensive, and both were very successful. It wasn't even the discount it contained, because BotP had one of the highest levels of discount vs RRP of any battle box released so far. It was that a significant chunk of it's "value" was padded out by two absolutely ancient vehicle kits that almost everybody who plays Craftworlds already owns and people saw right through that and how cynical it was. 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Halandaar

[Valkyrion]

Multi-buy discounts or complete cheap army boxes would appeal to us for obvious reasons but what is in it for GW? If they can sell their output at their current price point (as evidenced by the fact they don't do stock clearance sales), what is the incentive to sell for less? It is not as if they will make more money since they can't sell more than they can make.

 

 

Just to pick up on this - I don't know the trade agreements between GW and third party stores at all - but the reason for doing multi buy/bundle/army discounts from GW's POV is that it cuts out the third party entirely and they actually undercut the third party for their own product (assuming any such bundle was direct only).

 

Sometimes making less profit, but more money, is fine. e.g, if you want to buy a £250 washing machine from me then you pay £250 and I might make 25% (£62.50), but I'd rather you buy the £1000 washing machine with a 10% discount, so £900 , to generate a 15% profit of £135. Double. (this is not exact maths, just an example).

Of course you could argue then that selling 4 lots of £250 generates more money than one lot of £900 and you'd be right, but that isn't the market that such a bundle (or in my case, appliance) is aimed at. My bread and butter is the £250 full profit washing machine, the cherry on top is the £1000 discounted one. GW's bread and butter is selling tactical squads to Dark Sphere, their cherry on the top could be a Space Marine Battle Company. 

 

So let Element and Warlord and Goblin games and so on sell the £35 intercessors for £28 if they want, but were GW to offer a genuine lump deal of £300+ that was actually a proper deal and not just 3 repulsors for no saving then I genuinely think people would buy it. 

 

(I'm not even sure the £11,000 full chapter they did offered anything beyond a few tenners worth of savings?)

[Noserenda]

From what i heard (admittedly years ago, i suspect this is less true in this more online era) GW makes more net profit off third party sales anyway so i doubt they are super keen to close them down, as long as GW is still top dog and folks arent messing with their numbers by selling outside their region in large amounts. GW still benefits for LGS existing and saving them opening another store too.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Does anyone know what GW's actual target demographics are?

I feel like it's males 14-24 for some reason

Edited May 28, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Waking Dreamer]

Does anyone know what GW's actual target demographics are?

I feel like it's males 14-24 for some reason

 

People with a full-time job. 

 

Preferably with 2 full-time jobs. 

 

[Halandaar]

From what i heard (admittedly years ago, i suspect this is less true in this more online era) GW makes more net profit off third party sales anyway 

 

Well yes, they will make more net profit simply down to volume; In the last six months reported GWs share of revenue from trade was 56%, and obviously those sales don't have any significant overheads like sales from the retail chain do.

 

That said they are making significantly less margin on those trade sales than they are from stuff bought direct. For example, using a £100 kit for simplicity's sake, a Knight Castellan sold to you via GW.com gets GW £100 in the bank, but if they sell it to a third-party, its only £53.85. So they are generating almost as much revenue from a single kit sold direct as they are from two kits sold to trade.

 

This is why it's in GWs interest to get people buying direct instead of through third parties. If they were to offer some kind of "choose-your-own bundle" which worked out at having a 30% saving, that would undercut even the cheapest third-party retailers, but still make GW more in terms of raw revenue than if they'd sold those products via trade.

 

Now obviously this is a very simplistic view and doesn't take into account all the other costs associated with selling products direct, not least the retail chain which must be massively expensive to run vs what it brings in in raw sales, so it's not as if all of the extra ~£46 they make on that Castellan is profit. But you would think online-only bundles would have basically no additional costs over and above what they already incur for storing and shipping product now. 

 

There must be a reason they don't do it, but I can't really see what that reason is.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Halandaar

[Dark Shepherd]

Does anyone know what GW's actual target demographics are?

I feel like it's males 14-24 for some reason

From a casual job interview I had in a GW its even younger.

Most people get into it as kids/tweeners/teens but then GW generally lose some/most of them for a while or for good when they discover drinking/women/bathsalts or whatever so the customer base has to be constantly replaced.

 

Their dream customer is a 12 year old coming in with their confirmation money. That and Christmas gift lists.

[Bat33.1]

 

From what i heard (admittedly years ago, i suspect this is less true in this more online era) GW makes more net profit off third party sales anyway

 

 

Well yes, they will make more net profit simply down to volume; In the last six months reported GWs share of revenue from trade was 56%, and obviously those sales don't have any significant overheads like sales from the retail chain do.

 

That said they are making significantly less margin on those trade sales than they are from stuff bought direct. For example, using a £100 kit for simplicity's sake, a Knight Castellan sold to you via GW.com gets GW £100 in the bank, but if they sell it to a third-party, its only £53.85. So they are generating almost as much revenue from a single kit sold direct as they are from two kits sold to trade.

 

This is why it's in GWs interest to get people buying direct instead of through third parties. If they were to offer some kind of "choose-your-own bundle" which worked out at having a 30% saving, that would undercut even the cheapest third-party retailers, but still make GW more in terms of raw revenue than if they'd sold those products via trade.

 

Now obviously this is a very simplistic view and doesn't take into account all the other costs associated with selling products direct, not least the retail chain which must be massively expensive to run vs what it brings in in raw sales, so it's not as if all of the extra ~£46 they make on that Castellan is profit. But you would think online-only bundles would have basically no additional costs over and above what they already incur for storing and shipping product now. 

 

There must be a reason they don't do it, but I can't really see what that reason is.

Don't forget 20% of that GW direct sale is VAT that goes to the chancellor plus he takes more money from them in tax on any profits and the local council take business rates from GW in Nottingham as does every local authority where there's a bricks and mortar store and that's just a snapshot as there are other taxes to be paid regarding employees salaries too.

[LameBeard]

I think their target demographic is 12-year old kid with their dad in tow.

 

Pester power plus wallet plus possibility of “well if we’re gonna do this, we might as well do it properly”.

 

Even more likely if that dad was into it when he was a kid. People returning to the hobby is a big thing.

[Halandaar]

Don't forget 20% of that GW direct sale is VAT that goes to the chancellor plus he takes more money from them in tax on any profits and the local council take business rates from GW in Nottingham as does every local authority where there's a bricks and mortar store and that's just a snapshot as there are other taxes to be paid regarding employees salaries too.

 

I did say there are multiple other costs. But to deconstruct a few things here;

• VAT is actually only 16.67% of the final sale total (because it's pre-tax total +20%, not final price -20%)
• They have to pay over the VAT on trade sales too, so in percentage terms it makes no difference, a direct sale is still generates ~86% more "profit" than a trade sale even after VAT is considered
• Similarly, corporation tax is at the same rate regardless of profit level, so although higher profits do mean more tax paid, even after both VAT and Tax, a direct sale is still generates ~86% more "profit" than a trade sale 
• VAT collected can be offset against the VAT they pay on expenditure anyway so nowhere near all of the VAT collected from sales will actually go to HMRC.
• Fixed costs like business rates and taxes on salaries (not to mention employers NI contributions, pensions etc) all get incurred regardless of whether the sale is trade or direct, so ultimately have no bearing on the comparison between the profitability of the two channels.

Direct sales (from the webstore) is infinitely preferable to GW because it generates a massive amount more income for them with negligible additional costs.

 

Sales from their retail chain however are a much more complicated matter because, as you say there's the business rates on the premises, but also the rent, the utilities, staff costs, logistics costs of delivering product to them, marketing/POS materials, carrier bags, the cost of all the "waste" product which is used by the store rather than sold (kits, terrain and paints for displays, freebie models given out), promotional incentives like monthly coins, anniversary loot art prints and bags, and these are just the things i can think of.

 

Edit: Also, we are talking about this in a very UK-centric way, and while the majority of GW's costs do get incurred in the UK, there are plenty of other factors involved when considering stuff like a distribution centre in the US which obviously has to play by different rules when it comes to taxes and so on, although I'm sure our transatlantic brethren would probably tell us that regardless of any extra costs incurred in the US, GW just shafts them extra hard on the prices to cover it anyway.

 

Any way you slice it, the end result is simply that GW makes a higher profit margin on direct sales than it does from trade, even if the raw profit figure from trade is still higher due to volume. If they had a way of shifting over people who buy from third parties to buying direct, they could make more profit from the same number of kits sold.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Halandaar