GW and pricing, there's a problem.

[sarabando]

That is a possibility where the IP outgrows it's original roots. I'm not sure how likely it is or the time scale but definitely possible.

i think the tipping point for this will be Eisenhorn. If 40k can make it on TV its a hop skip and a jump to the mainstream.

[Halandaar]

GW needs to start selling STL files for OOP models. 

 

And the idea of GW selling STLs of out dated minis is spot on a great idea.

 

The issue with this as an idea is that most OOP models will have been sculpted by hand, rather than digitally, so files for them aren't likely to exist. That means either resculpting them in digital format (at which point why not just do an updated design and release them as their own money-spinning kit) or finding a way to import the physical models into digital.

 

I've no idea how cost-effective or straightforward it is to scan minis, but even if it is fairly easy and cheap it still relies on good quality casts or even originals still being available, which might not be the case.

[Karhedron]

Example: when I see €40 for five Flayed Ones, I'm put off. Even considering that's €30 with the independent retailer discount, that's simply too much compared to what I'm willing to pay. Same thing for €50 for 5 Heavy Intercessors.

A valid point but neither of those units are essential to their respective armies, particularly when starting out. Tactical squads and various flavours of Intercessors and Phobos units can be had cheaply to fill out your Troops selection. Flayed Ones are rather niche, various competitive Elites can be had more cheaply.

 

GW certainly has some high priced units (Characters are another eye-watering example) but they are rarely the core of the respective armies. Between edition launch box sets, Start Collecting sets and things like the 40K command edition, you can buy a complete 2000 point army for less than the price of a new generation console. It may not have the most competitive mix of units but it should be perfectly playable.

 

Also many parents would rather their kids were doing a physical hobby than staring at a glowing screen for hours on end.

[Halandaar]

Between edition launch box sets, Start Collecting sets and things like the 40K command edition, you can buy a complete 2000 point army for less than the price of a new generation console. It may not have the most competitive mix of units but it should be perfectly playable.

 

Sure, and I agree with the sentiment of preferring kids to have a physical hobby over a screen one. However, a console with a game a 2k Astartes army might both cost you an initial £300, but when you want a new experience, a new console game is ~£50. A new 40k army is another £300, at least. That's a major difference.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

GW needs to start selling STL files for OOP models.

And the idea of GW selling STLs of out dated minis is spot on a great idea.

The issue with this as an idea is that most OOP models will have been sculpted by hand, rather than digitally, so files for them aren't likely to exist. That means either resculpting them in digital format (at which point why not just do an updated design and release them as their own money-spinning kit) or finding a way to import the physical models into digital.

 

I've no idea how cost-effective or straightforward it is to scan minis, but even if it is fairly easy and cheap it still relies on good quality casts or even originals still being available, which might not be the case.

it doesn't matter if they were sculpted by hand. A 3D scanner will create the files, and takes like 1 minute per model to create the file.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.3dnatives.com/en/top-10-low-cost-3d-scanners280320174/amp/

[Halandaar]

it doesn't matter if they were sculpted by hand. A 3D scanner will create the files, and takes like 1 minute per model to create the file.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.3dnatives.com/en/top-10-low-cost-3d-scanners280320174/amp/

Yeah, and the second bit of my query? Where it relies on the originals or at least good quality casts from the original molds to be available for scanning?

 

Besides all of this, what's the incentive for GW to even do it? Would "official" STLs not spread like wildfire in exactly the same way pre-9th edition ePub Codexes did? The amount of legitimate sales would probably be absolutely dwarfed by the amount of pirated versions.

[Karhedron]

Sure, and I agree with the sentiment of preferring kids to have a physical hobby over a screen one. However, a console with a game a 2k Astartes army might both cost you an initial £300, but when you want a new experience, a new console game is ~£50. A new 40k army is another £300, at least. That's a major difference.

But a new unit only costs £40, I think that is a better comparison to individual titles.

[Halandaar]

But a new unit only costs £40, I think that is a better comparison to individual titles.

It might be a better comparison in terms of price, but absolutely not in terms of the experience gained for that price. A completely new gameplay experience which can be in a different genre, with new single and multiplayer modes, new story, new everything is a far cry from adding an Impulsor to an existing force.

 

Look I'm not saying that video games are necessarily a better value proposition overall and I would say I prefer to spend my money on 40k for the most part, I just think getting something substantially different out of this hobby requires a much bigger investment.

[Noserenda]

 

it doesn't matter if they were sculpted by hand. A 3D scanner will create the files, and takes like 1 minute per model to create the file.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.3dnatives.com/en/top-10-low-cost-3d-scanners280320174/amp/

Yeah, and the second bit of my query? Where it relies on the originals or at least good quality casts from the original molds to be available for scanning?

 

Besides all of this, what's the incentive for GW to even do it? Would "official" STLs not spread like wildfire in exactly the same way pre-9th edition ePub Codexes did? The amount of legitimate sales would probably be absolutely dwarfed by the amount of pirated versions.

 

Gw has a considerable number of those originals lying around, and knows an awful lot of other people who can fill in their gaps potentially.

 

Assuming that digital copies leads inevitably to piracy is false too, History has shown time and time again people are happy to pay for things when the price is reasonable and access straightforward with all sorts of other digital products.

 

And GW can still sell prints of those STLs for those of us who cant or wont set up our own printers.

 

I think eventually its inevitable that all the resin and metal minis gw produces will go this way, plastics i think still offer enough advantages to survive for a good while at least though.

[MegaVolt87]

OOP models should be re-introduced into the catalogue. Some may need to go on a batch order system, so I order + pay X, I get a timeframe of Y weeks/months delivery. If there are more orders it ships sooner. If not, its shipped at that set date. This would limit the need for holding any inventory  for it and ensure the production line runs as needed. Of course, an increased price on said products would be needed if the batch needs to run to fulfil orders on said items to cover under-capacity runs or even overtime runs that might need the line going non stop to meet the orders. OOP models are money GW is missing out on from people who desire them. They turn to re-casters to get them which is completely understandable. Just because a supply disappears doesn't mean the demand is gone if its possible for a good or service to still be sourced. Sure, some will continue to use re-casters, but GW/FW would re-capture many customers buying from them again for OOP products even if they have to wait. 

[Halandaar]

Assuming that digital copies leads inevitably to piracy is false too

Well it obviously isn't false because if it was, pirated digital Codexes wouldn't exist, and yet it does not take much work at all to find them.

 

The question isn't whether or not pirating of GW STLs would occur, because it absolutely would. The question is what proportion of printed models would come from a legitimate purchase Vs a pirated file.

 

Yes, a lot of people will pay a reasonable price for a thing, but what part of GWs track record makes you think they would charge a reasonable price? There is a booming market for recasts entirely because people aren't prepared to pay the prices GW ask. STLs would be absolutely no different.

[Joe]

Speaking from experience - when I asked my previous employer why they didn't produce digital copies of their rules, they specifically pointed to piracy being the primary issue. It's bad enough that people scan and distribute physical rulebooks already, but you're effectively handing the content to them on a silver platter with digital content.

 

As far as STLs go - piracy is rampant on that side too. I know a good few people that actively share the STLs they've purchased amongst their friends to "save money", which is a bit of a slap in the face for the creators, particularly those that are making purely original / non-derivative content.

[SvenIronhand]

An Impulsor is the same size as a Rhino, yet costs far more. It’s ridiculous.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

it doesn't matter if they were sculpted by hand. A 3D scanner will create the files, and takes like 1 minute per model to create the file.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.3dnatives.com/en/top-10-low-cost-3d-scanners280320174/amp/

Yeah, and the second bit of my query? Where it relies on the originals or at least good quality casts from the original molds to be available for scanning?

 

Besides all of this, what's the incentive for GW to even do it? Would "official" STLs not spread like wildfire in exactly the same way pre-9th edition ePub Codexes did? The amount of legitimate sales would probably be absolutely dwarfed by the amount of pirated versions.

well then they can lose out to recasters, and 3rd partiers completely instead of only slightly...

[Noserenda]

 

Assuming that digital copies leads inevitably to piracy is false too

Well it obviously isn't false because if it was, pirated digital Codexes wouldn't exist, and yet it does not take much work at all to find them.

 

The question isn't whether or not pirating of GW STLs would occur, because it absolutely would. The question is what proportion of printed models would come from a legitimate purchase Vs a pirated file.

 

Yes, a lot of people will pay a reasonable price for a thing, but what part of GWs track record makes you think they would charge a reasonable price? There is a booming market for recasts entirely because people aren't prepared to pay the prices GW ask. STLs would be absolutely no different.

 

 

And yet the use of them dropped off massively whilst GW was selling legit versions, as soon as GW stops making legit e-codexes available, ding ding, the pirates are there to fill the gap. Its exactly the same as music, game or video piracy.

 

Recasts are another problem entirely and i doubt they are booming as much as you might expect, tbh i think the reason they do so well is chiefly because people dont understand how abhorrent it is behind the scenes.But, it does prove my point, people would not be going to criminals if the prices were more reasonable, which is why 90% of recasts are forgeworld bits that feel to many arbitrarily more expensive than GW. 

 

 

Speaking from experience - when I asked my previous employer why they didn't produce digital copies of their rules, they specifically pointed to piracy being the primary issue. It's bad enough that people scan and distribute physical rulebooks already, but you're effectively handing the content to them on a silver platter with digital content.

 

As far as STLs go - piracy is rampant on that side too. I know a good few people that actively share the STLs they've purchased amongst their friends to "save money", which is a bit of a slap in the face for the creators, particularly those that are making purely original / non-derivative content.

I mean that doesn't really prove anything unless they back it up, its pretty much an hour or two extra work to scan a pirated copy, its almost no effort for the bad actors but it hurts legitimate customers. Can you see why thats a bad thing? I mean its like trying to stop thieves with a foot high fence, made of matchsticks, whilst insisting you wont sell the thing in that format.

 

People share or group buy STLs, thats been true of every product since the dawn of time, it doesn't mean people wont also buy things given that option, plenty of people do, enough that the makers of the STLs are presumably making enough money to stay in business. I always thought it was deeeeeply presumptuous to count things like this as "lost sales" when there is no particular evidence they would have bought it individually in the first place.

[Halandaar]

An Impulsor is the same size as a Rhino, yet costs far more. It’s ridiculous.

 

It doesn't occur to you that there is a twenty year gap between the design and release of these products? Of course the newer one is more expensive.

 

 

 

 

[Helias_Tancred]

Well, its $50 USD for a box of three primaris aggressors ..... but I definitely sympathize. I've always argued that GW should cut prices by 20% across the board and do a 5 year study, and see if by expanding their customer base their profits still go up with the cuts? As a former HS teacher I watched many times students that loved the models and lore but couldn't afford the hobby. I know GW specifically targets a segment of the consumer base and HS kids aren't it, but I wonder if their long game would be more secure if they did?

 

I would prioritize growing my customer base for long-term security rather than bigger profits in the short term.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Helias Tancred

[MegaVolt87]

 

I would prioritize growing my customer base for long-term security rather than bigger profits in the short term.

 

Impossible. Dividends must flow to the shareholders and CEO/ board of directors need annual pay rises while the company employees must take on additional responsibilities for no extra pay, while the company downsizes to save money because they are making record profit. Do you even business bro? 

[Bat33.1]

An Impulsor is the same size as a Rhino, yet costs far more. It’s ridiculous.

GW plastic kits can also be compared to mainstream plastic kits from the likes of Dragon and Hobby Boss etc. Take a look at how many sprues come in a box for a 1/35 tank kit compared to GWs offerings, the boxes have way more parts, easily triple the sprue numbers, often include photo etch brass details and have to do masses of real life research on real vehicles including fully 3D scanning them where they can. Prices for top end kits are in the £50-60 bracket comparable to GW newer tank kits and the model makers are not selling volumes of a kit that GW do or have them around for as long as GW kits

[BrandX]

Hello. I’m working on my first battle sisters box now. It comes with a ton of extra parts and options for how to build ten models. On the otherhand a box of 5 chosen of everblight from my last hobby cost over $100. Comes with zero extra bits to customize. Is 100% monopose. And 4 of the models are the same pose. Other squads you have to buy the upgrades separately. Again the models have zero flexibility in how they are made. The only thing better in pricing is that the old models never went up in price.

[Halandaar]

Well, its $50 USD for a box of three primaris aggressors ..... but I definitely sympathize. I've always argued that GW should cut prices by 20% across the board and do a 5 year study, and see if by expanding their customer base their profits still go up with the cuts? As a former HS teacher I watched many times students that loved the models and lore but couldn't afford the hobby. I know GW specifically targets a segment of the consumer base and HS kids aren't it, but I wonder if their long game would be more secure if they did?

 

I would prioritize growing my customer base for long-term security rather than bigger profits in the short term.

 

No board worth it's salt is going to recommend a universal 20% price slash for products that are in such high demand they can barely keep them on the shelves. And for FIVE years? For an experiment? GW is constantly looking for the pricing sweet spot and more often than not, finds it. It might be a price some of us are unhappy with, but it is a price that a substantial amount of people will pay.

 

When genuine exceptions occur, they row back a bit; Remember back in 2013 when Witch Elves came out and they were £35 for 10 models? That was felt to be pretty outrageous at the time, and infantry kits that followed were all released at lower prices presumably due to pushback and/or low sales. Today, £35 for 10 infantry models is not only the norm, we've even moved past it.

 

Blood of the Phoenix tanked at £140 and all subsequent battle boxes have been cheaper, but don't be surprised if we're back at £140 within the next couple of years.

 

Impossible. Dividends must flow to the shareholders and CEO/ board of directors need annual pay rises while the company employees must take on additional responsibilities for no extra pay, while the company downsizes to save money because they are making record profit. Do you even business bro? 

 

Feels overly cynical since GW just gave every single employee a share bonus worth £5000, for a total value of over £12million.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Halandaar

[Firedrake Cordova]

GW plastic kits can also be compared to mainstream plastic kits from the likes of Dragon and Hobby Boss etc ... Prices for top end kits are in the £50-60 bracket comparable to GW newer tank kits and the model makers are not selling volumes of a kit that GW do or have them around for as long as GW kits

 

Personally, I'd say Tamiya were probably the best comparator to GW if you're looking at historical kits, as they tend to have the same high quality of instructions, ease of assembly, and longevity of production (some of the other manufacturers make fantastic models that are a bit of a bear to assemble/don't have great instructions). Their kits tend to be slightly more pricy, typically being £45-75 for their newer 1:35 scale models (with old kits from the 1990's being ~£15-20). Still an interesting comparison, though :)

[Valkyrion]

I think the new DKOK suggests why the 'upgraded' Cadians are £29.50. It's so that the new DKOK can be £32.50 or even £35 and seem like reasonable value because it's new. 

 

Got to hand it to GW, just as I escape to the edge of the web I'm lured back in. 

[sarabando]

I think the new DKOK suggests why the 'upgraded' Cadians are £29.50. It's so that the new DKOK can be £32.50 or even £35 and seem like reasonable value because it's new. 

 

Got to hand it to GW, just as I escape to the edge of the web I'm lured back in. 

this business model just cannot be sustainable.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

I think the new DKOK suggests why the 'upgraded' Cadians are £29.50. It's so that the new DKOK can be £32.50 or even £35 and seem like reasonable value because it's new.

 

Got to hand it to GW, just as I escape to the edge of the web I'm lured back in.

this business model just cannot be sustainable.

It doesn’t have to be sustainable in terms of forever. They’ve just got to push it right to the brink before sales collapse and then hold it there forever. The tell tale for them will be when they release a new Primaris kit at a higher price point and it doesn’t sell well at all. They’ll then reign it back slightly for the next kit and hold prices at that level.

 

Sadly, wherever that level is, I don’t think we’ve got there yet :(