[BA] Helping a friend plan their army

[Commisar Necros]

So I've recently gotten my moms new husband into 40k, and hes taken to the blood angels. We split up an elite kit and get a starter game and he posts some stuff on FB while playing and lo and behold, his friend is quitting and will give him all his Blood Angels stuff. Most is from third edition, and well painted if a little dated. I wrote up what he has in battlescribe to get a points value and its almost 1600 between it all.

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Blood Angels) [84 PL, 3CP, 1,578pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Blood Angels

Battle Size [3CP]: 1. Combat Patrol (0-50 Total PL / 0-500 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

+ HQ +

Commander Dante [9 PL, 175pts]

Librarian in Terminator Armour [6 PL, 115pts]: Combi-plasma, Force stave

Primaris Chapter Master [7 PL, 145pts]: Chapter Command:  Chapter Master, Iron Resolve, Warlord
. Heavy bolt pistol, Master-crafted power sword and Relic shield: Master-crafted power sword, Relic Shield

+ Troops +

Assault Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 95pts]
. 4x Assault Intercessor: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol
. Assault Intercessor Sgt: Astartes Chainsword, Heavy Bolt Pistol

Tactical Squad [10 PL, 200pts]
. 7x Space Marine: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Flamer

Tactical Squad [10 PL, 113pts]
. 4x Space Marine: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Flamer

+ Elites +

Sanguinary Ancient [7 PL, 125pts]: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

Sanguinary Guard [7 PL, 120pts]
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword
. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

Terminator Squad [9 PL, 200pts]
. Terminator Sergeant
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Power fist
. 3x Terminator w/ Power fist: 3x Power fist, 3x Storm bolter

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 140pts]: Multi-melta
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter

+ Fast Attack +

Outrider Squad [6 PL, 150pts]: Outrider Sgt
. 2x Outrider: 2x Astartes Chainsword, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 2x Twin Bolt rifle

++ Total: [84 PL, 3CP, 1,578pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

 

 

Dante and his sanguinary guard are also un-assembled and will be a challenge for his first proper assembly. Swords over axes for them, ya? My main question is what should I recommend he get once he finishes building and painting these? I'm still rusty in this edition and don't want to steer him too wrong and want a little better advice that "get what looks cool".

 

He likes tanks and heraldry. A couple gladiators in the back? He also gravitated towards the Knights, could one of those fit in well? Or would assembly and such be a little too much for a beginner? Or split the difference and get a couple dreadnoughts? That's where I'm at, a furioso and a Baal to really lean into the BA part of things. Maybe another squad of assault intercessors if points allow.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Jolemai
Title

[ValourousHeart]

Whatever you do don't mention the word META to him for at least 2 years.

 

 

But in all seriousness, the only thing I would recommend you advise him on is limit any new Troop units to 1 for the moment.

He currently has 2.5 troops, so he is set for most games up to 2000 points with what he has got at the moment.

If he were to pick up 1 more troop unit, I'd go for ether heavy or assault intercessor, depending on if he wants control the board or zerg forward.

 

His HQ and Elite section are fine for the moment.

The only way he can go wrong with those last 400 points is if he spends that money on HQ and Elite choices.

Mainly because that will mean he has to leave units at home.

 

His force fits in a Battalion at the moment, so have him keep to a single battalion for now.

His main focus on new purchases should be Fast Attack and Heavy Support.

These extra FA and HS units will push his Battalion up to 2000 points.

 

Be sure to have him pick ones that he likes the way they look.

It is important that he likes the way they look because he is going to have to paint them... and it much easier to paint things you like the look of.

 

Once he has 2000 points, then have him play that list for at least 3 months without buying anything new.

Have him get to know that army inside and out.

Have him face as many players and armies as possible.

Have him figure out how to make that list work against endless possibilities. 

 

Then after those 3 months he'll have some real experience as to where to take the list next.

 

If you want to advise him again at that point, find out where he struggled over the last couple of months.

Then help him address those weaknesses in his list.

 

Have him make small changes to the list.

He'll go nuts on his own and buy more than he can paint without your encouragement.

So in the beginning have him only pick up 1 unit at a time.

[ValourousHeart]

He also gravitated towards the Knights, could one of those fit in well? Or would assembly and such be a little too much for a beginner? 

 

Sorry I missed this comment about Knights.  I play Dark Angels and was thinking Black Knights and Deathwing Knights.  But you are talking about Imperial Knights.... wait on that.  Have him finish the 2000 points of Space Marines first.

 

Imperial Knights are not terribly difficult to build, but they are $150-170 each, and that is a painful price tag to risk screwing up your first assembly project.  Those last 400 points will be 2-4 kits, and will be nice practice before the Knights.

 

If at the end of those 3 months of playing Space Marines, instead of tweaking his marines, he can switch to Knights if he wants to.  He'll know at that point that this is a game he likes playing and the prospect of dropping $600 on 2000 points worth of Knights won't be a terrible sticker shock.

[Commisar Necros]

Awesome advice thanks! That's kinda the soft plan for right now too. Prob play 1000 point game to get him a little more familiar with the rules and come july start a weekly league/crusade til school starts up again. That should give him two months to build and buy the last 400 points and get good and familiar with everything. I have a SW army so I'm ok with him borrowing stuff to see how it plays and were as a group pretty loose with proxies(prob have to reign that in while hes learning) so i'll keep this updated, or maybe even get him on the forum, best case, and he can go directly to the community without me gatekeeping

[ValourousHeart]

Something to keep in mind.  I've been highly successful with armies made from units the community considers trash.

 

So if he likes something and wants to give it a try, don't discourage him.  He is just as likely to figure the unit out and surprise you with how good it is, as you are to have an "I told you so" moment.  One of those outcomes is awesome, the other is not awesome.

 

That ties back into my comment about the META.  META is meaningless for 90% of the community 100% of the time.  And only really has value to the 10% when they happen to be at a tournament.

 

For the typical player, the outcome of the game they are playing right now has more to do with sticking to the mission, than it does with which army took top seat at the last big tournament.

Edited June 3, 2021 by ValourousHeart

[Commisar Necros]

Ok so hes enamoured with the Baal so probably getting one of those. Well play a game later today and see what else catches his eye. Im going to try and convince him to come with me to the GW store and see everything in person. Sadly they're out of em so well see. I agree with you about meta. Why I'm trying to help his army without putting that bug in his ear at the same time. Hes going to be in it more for the cool models and painting than powergaming, but still best not to focus on it I agree.

Our lists for the game later. May finagle down to one russ and more infantry to not be cheesy, but need to keep one in to help learn vehicle rules. Besides that keep the armies simple. Introduce him to warlord traits/relics, psykers, and vehicles. Maybe command points and stratigems, but there's a lot there all on its own. Maybe the next game at 2000 points so he has some time read over them after some experience. Probably go over secondary objectives too, but may wait to use them until I can get the update. Better to learn the right ones once than have to relearn while learning.

 

 

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Blood Angels) [49 PL, 6CP, 1,000pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

**Chapter Selector**: Blood Angels

 

Battle Size [6CP]: 2. Incursion (51-100 Total PL / 501-1000 Points) 

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

+ HQ +

 

Librarian in Terminator Armour [6 PL, 110pts]: Force stave, Storm bolter

 

Primaris Captain [5 PL, 105pts]: 1. Speed of the Primarch, Warlord

. Heavy bolt pistol, Master-crafted power sword and Relic shield: Master-crafted power sword, Relic Shield

 

+ Troops +

 

Assault Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 95pts]

. 4x Assault Intercessor: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol

. Assault Intercessor Sgt: Astartes Chainsword, Heavy Bolt Pistol

 

Tactical Squad [10 PL, 200pts]

. 7x Space Marine: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Flamer

 

+ Elites +

 

Terminator Squad [9 PL, 200pts]

. Terminator Sergeant

. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Power fist

. 3x Terminator w/ Power fist: 3x Power fist, 3x Storm bolter

 

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 140pts]: Multi-melta

. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Outrider Squad [6 PL, 150pts]: Outrider Sgt

. 2x Outrider: 2x Astartes Chainsword, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 2x Twin Bolt rifle

 

++ Total: [49 PL, 6CP, 1,000pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

Ane guard

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [48 PL, 6CP, 999pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

Battle Size [6CP]: 2. Incursion (51-100 Total PL / 501-1000 Points) 

 

Detachment Command Cost

 

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

 

+ HQ +

 

Company Commander [2 PL, 45pts]: Plasma pistol, Power sword, Relic: The Laurels of Command, Warlord, WT (Cadia): Superior Tactical Training

 

Primaris Psyker [3 PL, 50pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 80pts]

. 5x Guardsman: 5x Lasgun

. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Grenade Launcher

. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster: Vox-caster

. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher

. Sergeant: Laspistol

 

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 80pts]

. 5x Guardsman: 5x Lasgun

. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Grenade Launcher

. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster: Vox-caster

. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher

. Sergeant: Laspistol

 

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 80pts]

. 5x Guardsman: 5x Lasgun

. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Grenade Launcher

. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster: Vox-caster

. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher

. Sergeant: Laspistol

 

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 80pts]

. 5x Guardsman: 5x Lasgun

. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Grenade Launcher

. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster: Vox-caster

. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher

. Sergeant: Laspistol

 

+ Elites +

 

Special Weapons Squad [2 PL, 49pts]

. 3x Guardsman: 3x Lasgun

. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer

. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer

. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 35pts]

. Scout Sentinel: Multi-laser

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 50pts]

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

 

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 50pts]

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

 

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 400pts]

. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Lascannon

. . 2 Heavy Bolters

. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Lascannon

. . 2 Heavy Bolters

 

++ Total: [48 PL, 6CP, 999pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

Edited June 5, 2021 by Commisar Necros

[ValourousHeart]

If you can I'd drop 1 Leman Russ for a 30 man conscript squad and either a special weapons team or a psyker.

 

While the lists you have are good lists to start with, it looks like you are going to sit still and let him run toward you, which means you've put him at a distinct disadvantage.

 

His army is more geared to deal with infantry.  And while not an easy win for him, it also won't be him losing half of his force turn 1 if you happen to go first.

[Commisar Necros]

Kinda what I thought as I was looking at it. Its something Id play in a 1000pt game, but prob a little harsh to learn on. Wish I had a hellhound as a middle ground or a chimera, but none survived the moves. Backup list drops the russ for 2 more infantry squads and another flamer squad I think. Something like that its saved on my phone. Let you know how it goes.

 

Ok so game just finished up. The dice were unkind to both of us but had a vendetta against me didnt roll anything but a 1 for damage all game. His dread torched the russ and the bolters obliterated the squads. Only killed his intercessors by volume of mortars before calling it 20/0vp turn 3. Hes def getting the game, and Im looking forward to playing full sized games soon. Outriders were a favorite for him.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Commisar Necros

[ValourousHeart]

With that last game 20 / 0, on your next game go for the list you had on this thread.  But don't just keep everything in your deployment zone shooting all game.

 

Play a mission like Behind Enemy Lines, page 346 of the BRB.  It is one of the Crusade missions.  I think it is a great mission and it puts just about everyone on an even playing field, obviously favoring fast units.  Both armies are trying to get to their respective extraction points.  They have to get to your board edge and you have to get to theirs.  You both score 5VP each turn you have 2+ units wholly in the enemy deployment zone.  You both gain VP equal to 2x the power rating of units that complete the Exfiltration action (any unit can do this action, including vehicles).

 

I find it an interesting mission because you rewarded very heavily for extracting your units, which encourages you to make a break for it and forgo shooting.  But you are also able to reduce the amount of points your opponent scores by killing off his units.

[Commisar Necros]

That would be a pretty cool mission and will definitely have to give it a try. That creates a real dilemma that you cant plan too much for ahead of time, and he loves the realism missions more than go and kill stuff. Checks every box, thanks for the recommendation. I had shifted up the sw squads and reg squads to try and grab some objectives but he was able to just obliterate the 10 mans. It wasn't caused by stand and shoot, more that I rolled badly for my advances and didn't get to the objectives turn one(all our advance rolls were 1 or 2 and he even failed 2 charges at 6inches. Spiteful dice that game) and then him being in a great position turn two to contest or control everything and it went worse turn three. Four would have been a tabling if his outriders could get to the mortars.

 

Next week were going to focus on getting everything finished gluing, mold lines, and prob watch a couple youtube videos on SM stratigems and stuff to give him an idea of how to use those and painting. He has heard a lot about warhammer peripherally, but this is his first deep dive into it so hes new to every aspect of the hobby. Hes had some issues with the push to fits, so well see how the sanguinary guard go before we get any further with the buying plan and get some modeling and painting experience. But I just found out he drives by the new GW store on his way to work in monrovia, so who knows if that will hold.

 

I also just found out my good friends boyfriend played 40k back in 3rd like I did and just got his Necrons back. We have that half of the elite box I'm going to dangle carrot-like to get him to grab the codex and get back in. Don't think it will be a hard sell, I mentioned dynasties and he was fascinated. Be a lot easier to teach him since I just had to unlearn all the rules he knows. I miss the charts, lol

[ValourousHeart]

That is awesome about your Necron Friend.  Should be a lot of fun, and you might even attract more friends.  Plus when you see some of the discount sets with 2 armies, it makes it easier on the wallet if you only have to buy half of it.

 

The tolerances on the push fit models are a really tight.  I clip off most of the peg length before trying to assemble push fit models.  You just need a small peg to line up with the hole, the glue is going to do the real holding.

 

Don't worry about bad dice rolls, they happen and their is nothing any of us can do to avoid it.  All you can do is make choices that are less dependent on dice rolls.  Like take units that can vanguard move or infiltrate, if you want to take midfield objectives early, so you don't have to rely on a good advance roll.

[Commisar Necros]

Oh I've gotten way past that. My collection is from 3rd and 4th edition and I was playing a mess load. Hes brand new, I'm just learning the changes. Which ya know, considerable but not crazy. Its mostly unlearning old special rules and stats. Ill tell him about the push to fits when he comes out. Kinda like a built in pin.

[Xenith]

Can't really disagree with VH. Start with 1k games until you get the rules, and he can cycle units in and out of his 2k list.

 

Get units that he likes the look of, as he'll always have fun using them regardless of 'meta', and also aim for cool cinematic stuff in games, to tell a story, don't use finely tuned armies of efficient stuff. 

 

A learning experience for him can also be a gaming challenge for you, if you bring sub-par units. 

 

We've a few new members in my local club and someone took a CTan against one in their first game of 40k. I'm going to have words. Conversely, I'm running a Crusade campaign and for my Tyranids, I'm specifically getting and painting stuff that is never seen in netlists.

 

Actually, once they have the basics of the game, a small crusade campaign might be cool, if they like the mission stuff - you have 2 newish players/getting back into it, and they can slowly grow their armies over time. 

[ValourousHeart]

We've a few new members in my local club and someone took a CTan against one in their first game of 40k. I'm going to have words. Conversely, I'm running a Crusade campaign and for my Tyranids, I'm specifically getting and painting stuff that is never seen in netlists.

 

While I agree that facing a C'Tan in your first game isn't ideal, it all really depends on how the veteran player handled the game.  Were they being a bully, or did they select a mission where the new player had a good chance to win.

 

Before the world went pear-shaped, I was at the local GW painting up one of my Knights when a new player came in to get their first game.  All he had with him was the Deathguard portion of the starter set, minus the little tank and drone.  All I had with me was my Knights.

 

The store manager could have played him with a basic marine army, but would have to keep interrupting the game anytime a customer walked in, lots of customers that day.  We let him know that Knights are one of the tougher list for that collection of models to deal with, but I could set up a mission that would allow him a good chance at victory.  He agreed to play against my Knight.

 

I took a standard Gallant, Chainsword, Gauntlet, and Heavy Stubber.

 

6 x 4 board, I set up all of the terrain I could find into one 2x2 board section.  Leaving a gap on his right side (West) big enough for my Knight to enter, and a gap on his left side (East) only big enough for infantry models to fit through.  For him to win he had to either drop me below half my wounds, or have any surviving characters.  Characters could escape by exiting that side door and reaching the board edge.  Victory for me was completely wiping him out.  Anything else was a tie.

 

The mission ran like a game of Freeblade.  If you are unfamiliar, it is a tablet game where your Knight walks along a path shooting at the enemy models that jump out from the scenery.  So I couldn't make a bee-line for the door.  From my starting position I had to walk to the SE corner of the fort, along the front to the SW corner, then up to the West Door.  If he chose to leave with his character through the small door after I reached the SW corner, I wouldn't have enough turns to get back around to that far side.  I would make it to the door by the end of the movement phase turn 4.  (no advancing allowed by the knight)  But the knight would be in range of his entire army to shot and his psyker to poke me with MW from turn 1, with my only retaliation being 1 heavy stubber.

 

Once I got inside, I only used my sword attacks, because I was doing everything I could to not Rickroll this new guy.  I did mention to him the stomp attacks to let him know that his next encounter with Knight will be much more deadly if he lets them get into assault.

 

The game ended on turn 7 when his Chaos Lord with a single wound left smashed the Knight's plasma core with his ax.  I had saved my last 2CP for Noble Sacrifice, and exploded beautifully right in the middle of his base.  All of his surviving units were wiped out in the blast except for his Psyker who had 1 wound left.

 

Flawless Victory for the Deathguard.  And that Psyker is being fast tracked to Deamon Prince.

 

 

Actually, once they have the basics of the game, a small crusade campaign might be cool, if they like the mission stuff - you have 2 newish players/getting back into it, and they can slowly grow their armies over time. 

 

I can't sing the praises of Crusade enough.  My gaming group is having a lot of fun with our Crusade armies.  It takes the emphasis off of stomping your opponent, and puts it on the story of your growing army, units gaining experience or getting hurt, and your heroes becoming legends.