Testing out Smash Captain Builds

[Gree]

So I've finally gotten to playing 9th after restrictions have been lifted. While still useful, I've found the AP nerf to Thunder Hammers to be frustrating. I have not completely dismissed the traditional TH/SS combo, but I'm starting to look into other options for melee. Before I build any new models, I would like to know people's thoughts on Power Fists and Relics blades on a Smash Captain? I've yet to get adjusted to the meta in 9th.

 

To clarify, I tend to run a Chapter Master with an Imperial Fists successor, so he can use the reroll aura. I've been considering a Master-crafted Power Fist as a possibility, but I'm hesitant on giving up a defensive relic. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Gree

[Captain Idaho]

If you're using Master-crafted then apply it to a Relic Blade and enjoy, especially with The Imperium's Sword so you get to S8.

 

I find it difficult to give up certain Relics on this one though. As an example, The Censured Helm for Ultramarines makes a Captain extremely dangerous, so he really needs that S8.

 

But yeah, Mastercrafted is good because in Terminator Armour and a Storm Shield you can be well protected anyway.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Karhedron]

I have switched to a Relic blade. I tend to use my Elites to do more heavy lifting since hitting on 3s with no reroll is not great. You can give him his own reroll bonus but it is often better elsewhere.

 

Some chapters like Space Wolves can still build very good Smash Captains.

 

The other option is a Smash Chaplain with Relic Crozius and Mantra of Strength. That's quite a lot of 4D attacks hitting on 2s.

[XeonDragon]

Relic Blades are nifty. Personally, I've had great fun with the Teeth of Terra, but to give context, as a RG successor I get +1 to hit and wound vs Characters, so that deals with the S8 "threshold" (at least vs characters) that tends to be the indicator of a "smash" captain. Burning blade + imperium's sword is also groovy.

 

Personally, I think power fists are in a good spot right now. If you are out of something "out of the box" consider a chain fist on a terminator captain :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

How much damage can relic blade inflict and can it be master crafted ?

[Captain Idaho]

Relic blades have damage 2 and can be Mastercrafted.

[CCE1981]

I kinda like the idea of the ThunderHammer + Teeth of Terra White Scars Successor build with The Imperium's Sword and Chogorian Storm build I have in mind.  

[Xenith]

Don't forget the THammer becomes AP-3 in assault doctrine, and a lot of stuff youre going to want to smash will have a 4/5++, so the extra AP doesnt matter so much. 

 

A 5+ vs a 6+ save on stuff like knights is a big deal, 100% more saves, but the hammer means you're wounding on 4+ or 3+ as opposed to 5+ or 4+. 

 

MC Fist might be a nice middle ground.

[Karhedron]

My only concern with "Master Crafted" is that it precludes and of the more interesting relics that have funky effects.

 

Of course, there will be times when you don't need fancy tricks, you just need to hit something very hard.

[Captain Idaho]

Yes I see that problem. I think Chapters that don't have specific Relics needed for a melee Warlord can take Mastercrafted freely.

 

Myself using Ultramarines, I found the Censured Helm to be spectacular. Good against non-Marines and almost broken against Astartes, it pairs well with a Thunder Hammer thanks to the high damage.

 

Assault Doctrine does help here but when killing rank and file it's slightly worse thank a power fist. But you want him nuking big game ideally who generally have Invulnerable saves anyway.

[Xenith]

My only concern with "Master Crafted" is that it precludes and of the more interesting relics that have funky effects.

 

 

 

OP said they're running a successor, so unless it's inheritors, they lose all the specific relics. 

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not sure Imperial Fists have the ingredients for a smash Captain like other Chapters. They can do a number on vehicles but that's not the requirement it needed to be.

 

As such, I think Mastercrafted can work well on a son of Dorn.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Gree]

Don't forget the THammer becomes AP-3 in assault doctrine, and a lot of stuff youre going to want to smash will have a 4/5++, so the extra AP doesnt matter so much. 

 

A 5+ vs a 6+ save on stuff like knights is a big deal, 100% more saves, but the hammer means you're wounding on 4+ or 3+ as opposed to 5+ or 4+. 

 

MC Fist might be a nice middle ground.

 

The Thunder Hammer is still good for certain matchups, for example Death Guard is fairly common in my local meta. I'm hesitant on relying on assault doctrine to make it work as I would have to wait until Turn 4. Adaptive Strategy only works on Core units.

 

I think some variety of Mastercrafted might be best. I'd have to run a MC Fist on a Chapter Master, otherwise I find a -1 to hit a bit too steep in 9th.

[Xenith]

 

I think some variety of Mastercrafted might be best. I'd have to run a MC Fist on a Chapter Master, otherwise I find a -1 to hit a bit too steep in 9th.

 

 

What doctrines are your successor running? It's possible to get 2 assault ones, the +1 to hit on the charge and whirlwind for extra hits on 6's, which is statistically the same as +1 to hit. Combine those and on average with 6 attacks at WS2+ you'll get 6 hits even at -1 from the hammer.  

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I like thunder hammers they're good against Death Guard, and the AP isn't a huge deal because of how common invulnerable saves are.

 

That said I think the smash captain role isn't nearly as effective as it was in 8th. Beyond the point increase, limits on # of captains, the mission structure and look out sir changes are not kind to the archtype.

 

You may want to consider trying to replace that role with a brawler like termies, VV, or blade guard. Another option would be looking at some of our Multi-melta options like eradicators or attack bikes.

[Gree]

What doctrines are your successor running? It's possible to get 2 assault ones, the +1 to hit on the charge and whirlwind for extra hits on 6's, which is statistically the same as +1 to hit. Combine those and on average with 6 attacks at WS2+ you'll get 6 hits even at -1 from the hammer.

I've been using Inheritors of the Primarchs. I've been playing some variety of Imperial Fists since 6th. I have not yet considered switching to other successor tactics. It's a something I can playtest in future games. (None of the IF-specific Relics are good for a Smash Captain)

 

I have been considering the Fist of Terra, a Special Issue Wargear choice. It's a Power Fist without the hit penalty and an additional attack. It's only D2 though. I'm not sure on the Mathammer if that evens out or not.

 

That said I think the smash captain role isn't nearly as effective as it was in 8th. Beyond the point increase, limits on # of captains, the mission structure and look out sir changes are not kind to the archtype.

 

You may want to consider trying to replace that role with a brawler like termies, VV, or blade guard. Another option would be looking at some of our Multi-melta options like eradicators or attack bikes.

Yeah, I've also been thinking that as well. I have a bunch of Assault Terminators and Vanguard Vets I'm considering bringing out again.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Gree

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

That said I think the smash captain role isn't nearly as effective as it was in 8th. Beyond the point increase, limits on # of captains, the mission structure and look out sir changes are not kind to the archtype.

 

You may want to consider trying to replace that role with a brawler like termies, VV, or blade guard. Another option would be looking at some of our Multi-melta options like eradicators or attack bikes.

 

Yeah, I've also been thinking that as well. I have a bunch of Assault Terminators and Vanguard Vets I'm considering bringing out again.

 

 

You really should give them a shot, this is by far the best those two units have been in a long time. The best part is that they're good because their roles are important its not some weird relic or formation they're both just good at taking objectives and holding them through your next command phase. 

[Gree]

Delivery is another thing to consider. I often like to run Biker Smash Captains for the extra durability. Biker Captains can't take relic blades, so that leaves either thunder hammers or power fists.

 

I'm hoping to playtest a Biker Captain with a MC Power Fist in my next game to see how that goes.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I currently run a smash chapter master… sure it’s an investment but one game he rolled up like four VV squads so I think he’s well worth it. I use him conservatively but when I need him he tends to get the job done. Some games he just chills and shouts at his mates.

[Karhedron]

Another thought for Blood Angels is to take the "Gift of Foresight" WLT. This provides a reroll of 1 hit, 1 wound and 1 save per turn. This is a pretty solid ability for a Warlord that you want to get into the thick of things and probably makes the TH viable, even without the Chapter Master ability.

[L30n1d4s]

A Smash Captain build I like is as follows:

 

White Scars Chapter Master with Relic Blade, Storm Shield, and Jump Pack -- Make his Relic Blade Master-Crafted and give him the Chogorian Storm and Imperium's Sword WL Traits.

 

That gives him 6 + D3 attacks, all at S8 AP-3 Dmg3... once he hits Assault Doctrine, that bumps up to AP-4 and Dmg4... if a friendly Librarian gets Might of Heroes off on him, then he really powers up, with an average of 9 x S9 AP-4 Dmg4 attacks on the charge, all at WS2+ with full re-rolls on himself from his own Chapter Master ability.

 

For the final feather on top, if that Librarian can also get Null Zone off, then the Smash Master is cutting through anything without a 2+ or better armor save with no resistance... i.e. fully powered up with Libby support, this Captain can kill an average of 6 Deathshroud Terminators a turn by himself.

Edited June 30, 2021 by L30n1d4s

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Noice.

[XeonDragon]

So, I ran this recently, as I  picked up 2nd hand a captain with jump pack modelled with a sword and chainsword. I ran him with a relic blade and teeth of terra, with the Imperium's Sword WL trait. 5 attacks on the charge with the sword (4 + 1 for shock assault) and 4 with the Teeth of Terra (1 from the Imperium's sword + 3 from Teeth of Terra).

 

That was 5 S8, AP-3, D2 and 4 S5, AP-2, D2 attacks. I found that really good at mincing a small squad of VGV, a Chaplain and he then got 2 of 3 BGV gone before succumbing to the counter offensive. I plan to run him again   I think with RG successor +1 to hit and wound vs characters, or as a blood angel with +1 to wound that would be a really interesting combo.

 

It has also got me thinking of running a jump captain with either a power fist or thunder hammer and the teeth of terra. I did some preliminary mathhammer and in many (not all) situations the combination of 4-5 attacks with a heavy melee weapon and the balance with the teeth of terra does more damage than just the teeth or terra or just the fist/hammer/blade against that target. KEQ and GEQ notable exceptions. Still, being able to deal with MEQ, TEQ, VEQ and GRAVEQ appeals.

 

Only issue is only 3+ and 4++, so a bit squishy. That said, for chapters that allow two relics on a warlord, throw in some armour that gives 5+++ and I think this would be a very versatile and lethal load-out.   

Edited July 6, 2021 by XeonDragon

[CCE1981]

@XeonDragon

 

Check out my White Scars Chapter Master

The Imperium’s Sword +1 str and attacks

Chogorian Storm +d3 attacks

Teeth of Terra 3 attacks

Thunderhammer

 

Giving your Warlord 4(base) +1 (charge) + d3 (Chogorian Storm) + 1 (Imperium’s Sword) + 3 (Teeth of Terra) = 7-9x str 9 Ap -2 D3 attacks and 3x str 6 ap -2 D2 attacks on the charge and +1 damage in Assault Doctrine. Or if you decide you don’t want that -1 to hit 10-12 attacks at Str 6 ap-2 D2, or in Assault Doctrine 10-12 Str 6 ap-3 D3 attacks.

[XeonDragon]

@XeonDragon

 

Check out my White Scars Chapter Master

The Imperium’s Sword +1 str and attacks

Chogorian Storm +d3 attacks

Teeth of Terra 3 attacks

Thunderhammer

 

Giving your Warlord 4(base) +1 (charge) + d3 (Chogorian Storm) + 1 (Imperium’s Sword) + 3 (Teeth of Terra) = 7-9x str 9 Ap -2 D3 attacks and 3x str 6 ap -2 D2 attacks on the charge and +1 damage in Assault Doctrine. Or if you decide you don’t want that -1 to hit 10-12 attacks at Str 6 ap-2 D2, or in Assault Doctrine 10-12 Str 6 ap-3 D3 attacks.

 

Dude.... that is just nasty, in a good way!