9th Edition Thousand Sons Codex Game Feedback

[Prot]

So I thought we could start this to keep track of early experiences with the codex, and share quick exchanges on our games.

 

I've had 2 games with the new rules/points now. The first was a very strong showing against Orks which had a lot of bodies, and the bolter related damage I did handled the game fairly efficiently so there's not a lot to learn from this game. A lot of it was getting used to new ideas, etc.

 

Last night I had a second game vs. Sisters of Battle. This was quite different. 

 

For a bit of background I took Cult of Knowledge to keep trying out the re-roll 1's to wound power which I found useful, and different from what I was using in the past. 3 Squads of Rubrics, 3 squads of Scarabs. 

 

I took some very typical HQ's - Ahriman, Infernal Master, Daemon Prince.

 

I did take some of the Tzaangors, and Tzaangors enlightened, and a Shaman. My only vehicles were a pair of Forgefiends with S8 cannons.

 

Essentially this game was very different. I had first turn, and my secondaries were the new Warpcraft secondary Mutate Landscape, and basically quarters and 'kill more'. (which I never got.)

 

Long story short this was a game where I could tell by the end of turn 1 I had no chance of winning.

 

The early game I realized the Forgefiends which were a decent option against the lesser saves, and wounds of Ork vehicles, would not be nearly as effective against SoB vehicles. Those tanks with missiles were able to rip apart a unit of mine a turn with great ease.

 

The typical squads of Multimelta Retributors were extremely effective as well. The base MM shots (plus bonus shots) were very capable of killing an SoT squad a turn.

 

Inevitably I was forced to push forward I would easily lose the long distance shooting war. We had lots of Obscurring terrain, however with his secondaries, and his ability to fire indirect with those tanks (using a strat) created an issue for me. 

 

I was able to push against his Close combat units. Lots of Sacresants, and Paragon Warsuits using Scarabs and carefully placed "Twist of Fates" and stuff like that to get the Daemon Prince in there.

 

At the end of the game, as close as I tried to keep it, there was no way I was winning this one. By turn 3 I was hemorrhaging Witch hunter secondary points, and he was doing a secondary action from his book that didn't require him to leave his zone (but got more points than Mutate Landscape). 

 

At end game I was about to lose Ahriman, 10 Scarabs, and potentially my D.P to Vaul, left over Sacresants and Celestine who managed to resurrect herself in T3. 

 

Unfortunately his tanks were just extremely potent against this kind of army. You can't hide from them, and a lot of the shots are very well suited to taking down multiwound elite infantry.

 

When he focused on a Forgefiend, it was gone. Just way too many D6 damage shots to expect a 5++ invuln to keep alive. Same went for infantry. The Enlightened, which I really hoped to continue using in 9th are just paper junk in my opinion. At best you're hoping to get an "Engage on all fronts" point from them, but really their damage is lethargic and keeping them alive is really hard in today's high damage game.

 

I left the game thinking the Forgefiends weren't quite flexible enough.

The Psychic powers I decided on were wither 1) not quite defensive enough, or 2) not offensive enough to overcome the amount of damage I was taking a turn.

 

Right now I'm looking at ditching the Tzaangor Enlightened, and perhaps swapping out the pair of Forgefiends.

 

So what I took from this game was I was a little too slow even with the new Crystal, and my Close Combat was sufficient... not great, but better than the last codex would allow. However I almost felt in this game I would have been better just repeating Smite non-stop.

 

There was very little the 

[Ahzek451]

Nice reporting! Interesting to hear about the sisters organ tanks. Looks like you left something out at the end of your post. Bit of a cliffhanger there. The tanks would have been difficult to handle for sure, but how often were you spitting out mortal wounds Via doombolt, smite, the extra d3 from cabalistic abilities, etc?

 

Dunno if it would help, but part of my idea is to rock a defiler with 2 forgefiends. Maybe a helbrute. While this may not help against against the hidden exorcist, the idea is to let the defiler be placed in a threatening position to poasibly take some of the hits from everyone else by virtue of having more wounds and popping smokescreen.

 

But then you still need to be able to reach out and touch this hidden exorcist. Maybe a beat stick exalted could take a disc and aetherstride for a 30" movement after casting surge, sneak in and charge one of them and if possible, use perplex on the other. A rare instance where this power could be useful.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Ahzek451

[Prot]

Well smite was only Halle I got in my T3 to any appreciable amount because he went first and knew he greatly outranged me. Which was annoying but well played. Where the previous game the 6 wound trukks were threatened by my Hades Fiends, the SoB weren’t really threatened.  
 

I used the Crystal when I could and I made a good push for a while but the SoB just shot the heck out of me and their counter assault was just a little too good fir my list.  
 

i think I got a good amount of smites off but SoB get 5+ denies from every unit in one D6 which is super annoying. I was having to make a power a turn Undeniable burning 8 Cabalistic Points a turn. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Prot

[WarriorFish]

I've had a grand total of two games with my Defiler for my CSM and with 3+ to hits I think it's a good unit. Adds some long range AT as well as combat power, I think it'd be a good addition to a Sons force :tu:

[MillionsSons]

Thanks for sharing this!

 

Being hopeless against strong long range shooting is definitely our #1 problem and the new codex doesn’t address this at all.

The perplex spell is an extremely situational and limited beginning of a solution...

[Prot]

Before the new codex games, I always took 1 if not 2 Defilers. So in part, the Fiends improved so much I wanted to try them. 

 

The problem I always had with the Deflier is it is costed to be a split role unit. I wish it was a bit cheaper, but it is a decent unit. I don't think it's good AT at this time though for the points. I am definitely looking for very solid AT at this point since it is clearly chewing me up. I can't imagine facing a real gunline with TS right now. 

 

I may try a Deflier again, I was just very impressed with the Helbrute costs, and I always used them in my Black Legion anyway. With my pre-9th codex way of using Helbrutes, I was chucking them up field with cheap MM's, and using Duplicity to get it in deep when needed.  (It's a nice small foot print for this as well.)

 

We'll see. As it stands I have no idea what to tweak here. I want to test a few altered units, however none of what I like will probably fix my issue here. (Man what I would do for a unit of "Thousand Sons" Oblits!) 

 

The other way is to just crank of the Psyker damage, but this is where I feel things didn't get better for us. Even Doombolt has to hit closest now and has no secondary effect. If you want to cherry pick those deep tank/artillery units, it's very difficult now.

 

So my next game this week I plan on perhaps one of the following:

- Get rid of Enlightened Tzaangors. (Just horrible now IMO)

- Shaman may go too.

- Keep Tzaangors, or replace them with a Rhino (same effect to be honest).

- Alter the Forgefiends?  Get rid of one? Turn one into a cheaper Ecto plasma unit? 

- Add MM Helbrute? (or 2)

- Add Defiler? (or 2)

- Add Baledrake? (or 2) (Actually used these a lot pre-9th ed codex and they just got a little better to me.)

- Consider Forgeworld? - I have a nice dual twin-lascannon Contemptor (-1 CP I believe though). Add in my Mortal Wound Decimator? 

 

So a LOT of options here for Friday's game. I think the other option is to remove the crap from my list and just add Rhino's to double the foot print, while retaining annoying T7 walls... old school rhino walls except with a 5++ and dual Combi bolters.

 

Thoughts?

[WarriorFish]

I was leaning towards Helbrutes as a good source of AT previously (and I can't stop getting Dreadnoughts...), but I think they're probably the better option now with their enhanced status. Daemon Engines are nice for some extra heft, especially in combat and with their regeneration, but if it's long ranged AT Helbrutes seem the obvious pick.

 

Rhinos are good, but I think the new 5++ returns here to help them be that much more so for Sons. Scooting around being more of a threat with the shooting, and harder to remove with the 5++ sounds like a good combination to me.

[Ahzek451]

Sounds good. Yeah the defiler isn't the best AT option but it isn't that bad either. The idea is to have it take the attention from everything else. I think it being supported by fiends and brutes is a nice option. A couple rhinos are also distracting. The good ol' saturate your opponent with too many targets. I am considering dusting off the old fire raptor to give it a go since it is a wonderful target for different spells. Native 5++ that could be a 4++. +1 to hit targets. Just a lot of points for one model, about 400 I think with no way to heal. 

 

But it could be 24 s6 ap-1 D2 bolters
10 shot S7 ap-2 D2 avenger
4 S9 -3 AP3 D3 hellstrike

 

I would probably run more helbrutes. But I have zero desire to use the current helbrute model, Don't get me wrong, its pretty but doesn't fit the t.sons asthetic IMHO. Does anyone know how to get their hands on the origional FW dread?

Edited August 11, 2021 by Ahzek451

[Prot]

I was leaning towards Helbrutes as a good source of AT previously (and I can't stop getting Dreadnoughts...), but I think they're probably the better option now with their enhanced status. Daemon Engines are nice for some extra heft, especially in combat and with their regeneration, but if it's long ranged AT Helbrutes seem the obvious pick.

 

Rhinos are good, but I think the new 5++ returns here to help them be that much more so for Sons. Scooting around being more of a threat with the shooting, and harder to remove with the 5++ sounds like a good combination to me.

 

Yea, I wanted to get away from Helbrutes, but they are just an extremely good value now with -1 damage.

 

Same with Rhino's. Not the most exciting unit, but I need to start forcing opponents to shoot something else aside from my tanks now. 

 

Sounds good. Yeah the defiler isn't the best AT option but it isn't that bad either. The idea is to have it take the attention from everything else. I think it being supported by fiends and brutes is a nice option. A couple rhinos are also distracting. The good ol' saturate your opponent with too many targets. I am considering dusting off the old fire raptor to give it a go since it is a wonderful target for different spells. Native 5++ that could be a 4++. +1 to hit targets. Just a lot of points for one model, about 400 I think with no way to heal. 

 

But it could be 24 s6 ap-1 D2 bolters

10 shot S7 ap-2 D2 avenger

4 S9 -3 AP3 D3 hellstrike

 

I would probably run more helbrutes. But I have zero desire to use the current helbrute model, Don't get me wrong, its pretty but doesn't fit the t.sons asthetic IMHO. Does anyone know how to get their hands on the origional FW dread?

 

I used to have the FW dread, but sold it. It is a good option if you can find one.....

 

I don't mind the Helbrute. I just changed some minor bits... it's okay, I suppose it's up to the individual on why or how it's in your army. (Mine were always captured Dark Angels. or Wolves that I would force to fire upon their old chapters. lol)

 

The Fire Raptor has been on my mind as well. We can give it a 4++, and inherently -1 to hit, but wow it is costly. 

[WarriorFish]

I use normal Dreads for my CSM, Venerables specifically for the Slaaneshi fancier part, I don't see why you couldn't for Sons? It's not like anyone could confuse them for a different unit and if Marines got turned to dust in their armour by the rubric - isn't the Dreadnought an entombed Marine's armour? I'm still toying with the idea of using normal Dreads for my Sons... with the colours and transfers they'd fit fine, and spare the spare torso headdress from SOT could probably do some work if you wanted more of the look - but it's not like other vehicles have a particular Sons look either.

[Ahzek451]

Yeah I'm finicky with asthetics. GW's fluff excuse for helbrutes, as mentioned above, is captured marines and while I do see sons doing that...not my gig. I don't want a former (insert chapter here) in armor with thousand sons iconography. In addition, GW also mentioned that it's not a dusty boy inside because the spirit energy is too weak to pilot the walker, or something like that. All this stuff is clearly to justify the half flesh, half metal helbrute model.

The justification I Am trying to wrap my head around and develop now is that my helbrutes will be: in the same way servitors are mostly failed aspirants for marines, helbrutes are failed aspirants. Too weak in psychic energy, and failing a key step in becoming an aspiring sorcerer, instead beginning to warp and mutate. Touched by Tzeentch, they either become spawn or, should a thousand sons army desire to put the energy and effort into it, they opt to contain the mutation process by fusing them within the frame of a machine. Bound by ritual and mystic runes. Tethered to the will of a sorcerer. 

[Prot]

I've even considered 'failed sorcs' as Helbrute fodder. They might be half chewed up from the warp, and that's actually what my squad of Spawn are. :)

 

I will probably keep the spawn in the list. They simply work and got a bit better too.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I've even considered 'failed sorcs' as Helbrute fodder. They might be half chewed up from the warp, and that's actually what my squad of Spawn are. :)

 

I will probably keep the spawn in the list. They simply work and got a bit better too.

In the 8th Ed Codex they mention that the Sons dupe low quality aspirants who come seeking knowledge into binding themselves to a Helbrute and their final, supposed "initiation" ritual fuses them to it physically and permanently....so captured enemies aren't the only option.

[Trokair]

I know it is not a Dread, but I intend to use the Castellax-Achea as my dread.They where a TS invention after all, and are psy-crystal based, so I can’t see why one of the Sorcerers can’t be controlling it from afar. I have one already and planning one getting a second.

 

I have two Crusade games tomorrow, will report back on how the ne codex is working out.

[Ahzek451]

The casyellax-achea are one of the coolest things about our history. And although, magnus lost them all during the first battle on fenris(I think it was the firsf), I sincerely hope GW is going to make a new unit for us that is incredibly close to them.

[Trokair]

The casyellax-achea are one of the coolest things about our history. And although, magnus lost them all during the first battle on fenris(I think it was the firsf), I sincerely hope GW is going to make a new unit for us that is incredibly close to them.

 

He did? Somehow missed that fluff over the years, oh well.

 

A new psy-automaton would be nice, maybe next edition.

 

 

There’s a thought, I am sure I have some unbuilt Kastelan somewhere I could Rubric up for a third dread.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Trokair

[Ahzek451]

 

 

The casyellax-achea are one of the coolest things about our history. And although, magnus lost them all during the first battle on fenris(I think it was the firsf), I sincerely hope GW is going to make a new unit for us that is incredibly close to them.

He did? Somehow missed that fluff over the years, oh well.

 

A new psy-automaton would be nice, maybe next edition.

 

 

There’s a thought, I am sure I have some unbuilt Kastelan somewhere I could Rubric up for a third dread.

To be fair, it is in an older black library novel. Gw can and do retcon anything. So...anything is possible. Edited August 11, 2021 by Ahzek451

[Trokair]

Out of curiosity, do you remember what it was called?

[Ahzek451]

I beleive it was battle of the fang.

[Trokair]

Not to derail this further, but while looking for the Kastelan bits to see how they might be spruced up with with TS bits (having just built a whole bunch of Rubrics and SOT), I came across some Ambots.

 

They are a bit on the small side, but with a bit of bulking up they might pass as a Hellbrute/dread/psy-automaton, will let you know how things shape up if I do any conversions.

 

 

On another though, if people are looking for alternatives to the Hellbrute model , or even boxnaughts, have a look at the Adeptus Titanicus Warhound Titians. They are roughly the same sise and fit on 60mm bases just fine (they come with 80mm), I converted some to be ven dreads for my deathwatch a while back. You just have to get a bit creative for combat arms.

[Trokair]

I played three crusade games tonight, two at 25 PL and one at 50 PL.

 

I was Cult of Prophecy, as the utility and reliability of having one dice to add when needed (if it was a good roll) seemed good for small scale games. It did alright most of the time, I suspect that in larger games its utility will fall off.

 

My 25 power was:
1 Exalted Sorcerer (Doombolt, Presage. WT: Undying Form, Relic: Conniving Plate, also took the Kophesh)
Rubric squad (9 warp flamer, Icon of flame, 1 wrap flame pistol, Staff replaced with Incaendum, Pyric Flux)
Hellbrute, Twin Lasscanon, fist, inferno bolter

 

For the 50 PL game I added to the above 10 SOT (Temporal Surge, 2 soul reapers, 2 missiles) – yes this technically is only 20 PL but I had nothing to fill the other 5 with (infernal master coming soon).

 

 

Played 2 games against Blood Angles, won both of them.

 

The first of the back of the Flamer Rubic (used the stratagem to deploy up board, then rolled 6 on the advance, wiped a unit of intercessors and menaced overwatch at some outriders (who instead went elsewhere allowing me to nab an objective with the squad)).

 

The second was the 50 power game, and my opponent put the Hellbrute on one wound on turn one, but his other guns bounced of the TOS. The TOS then proceeded to mince some charging outriders, in my turn got Presaged by the Exalted, moved themselves up the board with Temporal Surge, shot rather ineffectual (due to some wired dice rolls all around) then charged a ½ health gladiator (courtesy of the hellbrute) , and with the plus 1 to wound stratagem killed it. The following turn they 6 of them died to enemy shooting and a charging redemptor, but they brought it down to 3 wounds so that it could be doom bolted by the Exalted the following turn.

 

 

The last game was against Grey Knights, that was brutal, game ended turn three, with everything dead apart from a two wound hell brute (shooting his twin lascannons to kill a 1 wound grand master in terminator armour (not in a the dreadknight thankfully). The flamer rubrics did the same deploy midfield and advance. Wiped a unit of purgetators, but then died to mortal wound spam (the GK was set up for MW spam).

 

The Exalted endedup in combat with a wounded strike squad, one GK survived, and on his turn he smited, periled on double 6, survived the peril so the power went off, and promptly rolled another 6, killing the Exalted with the super smite. The Exalted then failed his post battle recover and got a battle scar, I think this one is destined for spawndom!

 

 

Things Learned

 

Cabal points, I only generated 5 in the small games and 6 in the big game, and most of the time found no use for it. One time I used it for additional mortal wounds, once for +1 to cast and I think that was that.

 

That said with only 2 / 3 psykers respectably, and 3 / 4 cast respectively I probably was not generating enough to accesses some of the bigger ones, and with so few casts per turn (and a good chunk of that was blessings) I just found very little use.

 

I will defiantly have another look at Cabal points in a bigger game, when I have more psykers to generate, and more casts to do interesting stuff with.

 

 

The blessings I used, Pyric on the flamers, temporal surge on the terminators and presage on whoever was near the Exalted all did well and was useful.

 

The stratagem for rubrics to deploy up field combined with the flamers is a really strong option to kill one enemy infantry unit that really needs to die. But in such small games spending 2 command points to do so was scary, as starting the game with only one, and potentially going second could just as esaly see the unit dead before it does anything.

I think that was the highlights and the things that stood out the most to me.

 

 

Edit: forgot to add, All is Dust was really helpful, the amount of 2s I rolled on the SOT and 3s on the Rubric when being hit by -1 AP bolt rifles and similar was scary. I think over three small games All is Dust saved 11 Rubric wounds and 7 SOT wounds (in the big game) that would otherwise have been fails.

 

The again in such small games, with so few units there was little else to shoot with the enemies anti infantry weapons.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Trokair

[Skerr]

Great write up! Sounds like a fun day and a chance to really test drive.

 

Did your opponents have any comments?

[Prot]

Thanks for the game insights. It reminds me how fun the smaller games can be. Amy stand out units that impressed you? Would you keep the flamer rubrics in larger games?
 

[Trokair]

I did not specifically ask my opponents, but the Blood Angles players certainly finds the 10 man Wrapflamer Rubrics to be ridiculously strong, the GK player voiced much the same.

 

In the game against GK the opponent did comment that he was surprised about how much damage he was doing to me in the psychic phase (over the game he did something like 22 (or thereabouts) mortal wounds) as I was supposed to be good for casting and he for countering me. I only managed to deny one of his powers all game, so he had pretty much free reign and he had built for mortal wound spam with his powers and upgrades.

 

I guess building to be Rubric with some psykers support instead of being a bunch of psykers with some rubric support also contributed to this.  

 

 

I would defiantly field the Wrapflamer unit in larger games and potentially going forward only in larger games, Crusade is for fun and being to competitive will ruin it (unless I am up against the local power gamer, then I need every trick to survive).

 

Now in larger games I expect that deploying them in the midfield and killing an enemy unit turn one will be much harder, and if they go first they can probably kill the unit before it does something. As such if I do field them in larger games they will probably go and hide in the webway and come in to deal with a problem unit when it is exposed.

 

It is very much a one trick pony, so I don’t think it is a every game unit, but from time to time it can do a lot of work.

 

I was also impressed with the SOT, then again a 10 man terminator blob will do a lot.

 

The 5++ on the Hellbrute was nice to have, but it did not actually save against any important shots (one 2 damage plasma shot across three games I think), though that might just be my bad rolling, time will tell.

 

[Xenith]

Nice review! I'll be starting a Crusade with my Sons when I get my hands on the codex. I have all my old troops but will be gradually building up a Silver Sons army also. Great to see the warpflamer squad working, totally forgot they were assault for advance and shoot. 

 

I quite enjoy the smaller games. Larger ones in 9th tend to take ages due to the massive amounts of books, unit-specific special rules, and stratagems. 25 PL is a bit small, but good to get a couple of games in, 50 is great.