9th Edition Thousand Sons Codex Game Feedback

[WarriorFish]

I'm not familiar with DG's stuff, so I can't qualify any more I'm afraid. As for the Orrery, I hereby rename it "Eggy's Orrery" - should be much easier to remember and type :lol:

 

I am thinking that the movement abilities are stand out indeed, so I think I'll try Cult of Duplicity second. I can't detach myself from the Cult of Time easily, but now looking for third place... :P

[Mushkilla]

The ability to move in 9th is so important. Early on I was thinking between time and duplicity. But still, the ability for anyone in the cult to bounce around(granted one at a time) at will is the objective winner. Not to mention pulling out of bad situations. The trick is, reliably casting it when you need it most. Having enough cabal points on standby just in case. 

 

The thing that makes Sorcerous Facade even more potent is that it happens in the psychic phase. One of the more interesting and fun things about the psychic phase is the freedom it gives you with sequencing. 

 

You can remove a screening unit with smites and then Sorcerous Facade within 9" of the unit they were screening. Which you can't do with teleport strike or the Crystal as they happen in the movement/reinforcement/command phase, before you get to remove screening models.

 

The same sequencing lets you use smite/witchfire to kill a unit locking one of your units in close combat and then move that unit with temporal surge (allowing it to move/charge/shoot as normal).

 

The fact that most of our power/buffs happen in the psychic phase rather than the command phase means we don't lose all our abilities when coming in from reserve or disembarking from a transport (which makes us a great mechanised/reserve army).

 

I mean technically you can disembark from a transport in the movement phase do some stuff in the psychic phase and then use temporal surge to embark back into the same transport (as it's a different phase). Haven't found a use for this one yet. I guess it gives you and extra 6" movement 3" when disembarking and 3" when embarking, maybe it can be combined with Metaphysical Focus (perform a power after a psychic action)? You could effectively disembark 3", move 6", perform warp ritual, temporal surge back 6" and embark back into a rhino 3"...

 

...The point is you can do lots of outlandish things because our army can disobey conventional sequencing. Having an extra movement power, like Sorcerous Facade gives us even more scope for sequencing shenanigans.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Mushkilla

[WarriorFish]

That's a very good point. Being able to do extra is always very useful, but stepping outside of the normal phases/processes/etc is all the more potent as it is also unique - it's not a special thing only Sons get of course, but the version here is notable given how much of the game revolves around movement (on top of the obvious benefits of having your pieces where you want them).

 

It's similar to my favourite trick for my CSM in using Daemon Bolt on a character's bolt pistol to break them out of combat in the shooting phase so they can charge, a get out of jail obligations free type card has much potential for mischief. What better way to please Tzeentch and receive his boons to your dice rolls? It is a bit disappointing that one cult stands out so much more than others, but this is often how things go but at least the others have their own utility (and diehards like me who keep going on about bringing models back )

[Mushkilla]

It is a bit disappointing that one cult stands out so much more than others, but this is often how things go but at least the others have their own utility (and diehards like me who keep going on about bringing models back )

 

It is, but you're right it's good to spend some time with each cult. You never know there might be some things that in practice are much stronger than they first appear.

 

Also it's not like we can only run one cult. Splashing a second or third cult could be quite strong after all you can at most Sorcerous Facade 5 units in any given game so I can't see a need to go all in on duplicity (other than redundancy and saving CP). 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Mushkilla

[Ahzek451]

Gw attempted to fix the inbalance by upping the warp charge didnt they? Obviously not by quite enough.

[The Yncarne]

I wondered why up the warp charge then give a +1 to cast? It’s about the soup I guess.

[Ahzek451]

Silly question that used to bug me and just want to quiet my mind. For scarab occult, can you arm the same model with the missile rack and soul reaper? And do you?

[Skerr]

Fantastic Mush!!!

[Trokair]

Silly question that used to bug me and just want to quiet my mind. For scarab occult, can you arm the same model with the missile rack and soul reaper? And do you?

There is nothing in the rules that say you can’t, and when I asked before I never got an answer.

 

So I built one Soulreaper armed SOT with missiles, and one without.  

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Silly question that used to bug me and just want to quiet my mind. For scarab occult, can you arm the same model with the missile rack and soul reaper? And do you?

I do. Helps when playing various squads of SoT.

[Tichinde]

Silly question that used to bug me and just want to quiet my mind. For scarab occult, can you arm the same model with the missile rack and soul reaper? And do you?

No reason why not, other than putting all your eggs in one basket. Same issue with icon of flame on Soul Reaper Rubrics. If he dies, you lose both!

Edited August 26, 2021 by Tichinde

[Mushkilla]

Gw attempted to fix the inbalance by upping the warp charge didnt they? Obviously not by quite enough.

 

I don't think nerfing Duplicity is the solution. It's just a good power that solves some of our mobility problems. If anything it should be used as the bar that other cults are balanced around (at least in terms of the cult psychic power). It does what a cult/chaptertactic/doctrine should do, make the army play differently. 

 

Our cult powers are always going to be challenging to make relevant as unlike other factions Chapter Tactics/Doctrines they don't scale (due to only affecting one unit at a time for the most part).

 

EDIT: On the bright side at least our cult powers aren't Psychic Stalk bad.

 

It has a 24.5% chance of killing a model in a leadership 8 unit. You have a 27.7% chance of manifesting smite on a 10+. That's the 6th casting of smite!

 

It has a 15.5% chance of killing a model in a leadership 9 unit. You have a 16.6% chance of manifesting smite on a 11+. That's the 7th casting of smite!

 

So to be even close to effective you need to target a multi wound model after having cast 6-7 smites.

 

I guess it's targeted? Might have been ok if the thousand sons player got to pick the model that died. Feels like a power who's only purpose is so that we have 9 powers in a discipline rather than 8. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Mushkilla

[Ahzek451]

 

Silly question that used to bug me and just want to quiet my mind. For scarab occult, can you arm the same model with the missile rack and soul reaper? And do you?

No reason why not, other than putting all your eggs in one basket. Same issue with icon of flame on Soul Reaper Rubrics. If he dies, you lose both!

 

Hmm....maybe I will magnetize 2 models so I can spread the weapons around just in case then. With questions like these, I am more concerning with "future proofing". I can see a codex or 2 down the road where GW makes a subtle change to allow the same model to have both weapons. Hate that crap. 

[Ahzek451]

 

Gw attempted to fix the inbalance by upping the warp charge didnt they? Obviously not by quite enough.

 

I don't think nerfing Duplicity is the solution. It's just a good power that solves some of our mobility problems. If anything it should be used as the bar that other cults are balanced around (at least in terms of the cult psychic power). It does what a cult/chaptertactic/doctrine should do, make the army play differently. 

 

Our cult powers are always going to be challenging to make relevant as unlike other factions Chapter Tactics/Doctrines they don't scale (due to only affecting one unit at a time for the most part).

 

EDIT: On the bright side at least our cult powers aren't Psychic Stalk bad.

 

It has a 24.5% chance of killing a model in a leadership 8 unit. You have a 27.7% chance of manifesting smite on a 10+. That's the 6th casting of smite!

 

It has a 15.5% chance of killing a model in a leadership 9 unit. You have a 16.6% chance of manifesting smite on a 11+. That's the 7th casting of smite!

 

So to be even close to effective you need to target a multi wound model after having cast 6-7 smites.

 

I guess it's targeted? Might have been ok if the thousand sons player got to pick the model that died. Feels like a power who's only purpose is so that we have 9 powers in a discipline rather than 8. 

 

Yeah I misspoke, I did not intend to mean it needs to be nerfed more. I totally agree that the others should be risen up, not have this one nerfed. But overall, it could have been worse. In comparison to past blunders, GW did a decent job making it difficult to always hone in on one choice here. 

 

Psychic stalk just makes me think that there was a small team of designers and they created our large list of powers, ran out of ideas, and decided to say "Screw it" and let the new guy make something up. 

 

PSYCHIC STALK! (tv commercial voice) Stalk you prey in the warp and destroy them!

Oh but you can't pick characters...or vehicles....or  monsters. AND it has to be a 2d6 leadership which as a below average chance on most things. ....................OH and I forgot that the target model is not your choice so you can't...you know...stalk a special weapon model in a unit or something.  

 

So basically what you are saying is, this power is useful in one of the most situational spots ever. A low leadership MW model that is medium sized. I geuss if I am bored I will stop smiting and switch to this using a strat. 

 

 This power is treason of Tzeentch all over again, but manages to be even worse. Clearly it was game breaking so they slapped on a ton of restrictions.....

Edited August 26, 2021 by Ahzek451

[Ahzek451]

I've been in this hobby since 2nd, and after all these years one of my biggest desires is still to go and just BS with some of the rule designers and just pick their brains on how they make rules. I would be curious to know how they come up with such great stuff, but then..make absolute blunders like psychic stalk. I've just concluded that making rules over and over tends to lead to misshaps sooner or later and this is the result because of the human element.

 

I still can't believe that over the entire Thousand sons existence, every edition I pray to Tzeentch that we get some kind of power that let's us directly manipulate an opponent. This is a power that fits the sons narrative so clearly(they do it a lot) where I have read many times that they rely on their powers more than heavy weapons and vehicles  because it makes sense. I don't need an army of big guns, I'll just use yours. Many times they have turned enemy weapons against themselves and yet the closest we ever got was a Tzeentch daemon specific power. And it was terrible. And it's a slap in the face knowing genestealer cults have it. And I think harlequins too. HUGE missed opportunity to make cult of manipulation more viable and give them a power like this. 

 

sorry. /rant. Having one of those mornings. 

[Xenith]

 

 

Silly question that used to bug me and just want to quiet my mind. For scarab occult, can you arm the same model with the missile rack and soul reaper? And do you?

No reason why not, other than putting all your eggs in one basket. Same issue with icon of flame on Soul Reaper Rubrics. If he dies, you lose both!

 

Hmm....maybe I will magnetize 2 models so I can spread the weapons around just in case then. With questions like these, I am more concerning with "future proofing". I can see a codex or 2 down the road where GW makes a subtle change to allow the same model to have both weapons. Hate that crap. 

 

 

I magged 2 model's arms in my unit so I can put the Soulreaper either on the same model as the HMR, or another model. Currently they're best on the same model, however unit targeting and casualty removal mechanics are one thing tinkered with over varying editions. Sometimes it'e best to load them on one model, sometimes not (closest model dies mechanics). I think with cult of time it's best to have both on one model in case the unit gets whittled down to just the sorc in which case time flux will bring both special weapons back. 

psychic stalk.

 

I can't get out of my head that this is some kind of psychic small plant, as opposed to psychically hunting someone. 

[Prot]

 

 

Silly question that used to bug me and just want to quiet my mind. For scarab occult, can you arm the same model with the missile rack and soul reaper? And do you?

No reason why not, other than putting all your eggs in one basket. Same issue with icon of flame on Soul Reaper Rubrics. If he dies, you lose both!

 

Hmm....maybe I will magnetize 2 models so I can spread the weapons around just in case then. With questions like these, I am more concerning with "future proofing". I can see a codex or 2 down the road where GW makes a subtle change to allow the same model to have both weapons. Hate that crap. 

 

 

I originally read it the way you do. I still do, but I honestly don't feel it will stay that way. Not because it shouldn't, but because historically they don't typically do it this way. 

 

Regardless I have my old ones built the old way, and the new ones I got in Hexfire are still only one special per model. The reason I went that way is two fold: If they change the rule because it was a 'mistake' to have one model kitted out with both special weapons, then I'm okay. 

 

Also I started to think about the amount of times they do something silly with point costs in chapter approved and I just decided to play it on the safe side. Realistically I don't think it really matters. Also ironically I have yet to lose my 10 man squad beyond... about half size.

[Mushkilla]

I still can't believe that over the entire Thousand sons existence, every edition I pray to Tzeentch that we get some kind of power that let's us directly manipulate an opponent. This is a power that fits the sons narrative so clearly(they do it a lot) where I have read many times that they rely on their powers more than heavy weapons and vehicles  because it makes sense. I don't need an army of big guns, I'll just use yours. Many times they have turned enemy weapons against themselves and yet the closest we ever got was a Tzeentch daemon specific power. And it was terrible. And it's a slap in the face knowing genestealer cults have it. And I think harlequins too. HUGE missed opportunity to make cult of manipulation more viable and give them a power like this. 

 

sorry. /rant. Having one of those mornings.

 

Let me regale you with the tale of Lash of Submission. 

 

Many editions ago in the 4th edition chaos codex (which was one of the biggest disappointments after the magnificently insane 3.5 edition codex). There was a Slaanesh power called Lash of Submission.

 

You selected a visible enemy unit within 24" moved it in any direction by 2d6" and then it took a pinning test.

 

In 4th edition you could only take two HQ choices, but there was no limit on casting the same power twice. So you could run two lash sorcerers and effectively move any of your opponents units 4d6". This power almost single handedly propped up one of the most boring/terrible Chaos codexes of all time.

 

I might be wrong but I don't think there's been a direct movement manipulation power since. It's just too gamebreaking. 

[Ahzek451]

 

I still can't believe that over the entire Thousand sons existence, every edition I pray to Tzeentch that we get some kind of power that let's us directly manipulate an opponent. This is a power that fits the sons narrative so clearly(they do it a lot) where I have read many times that they rely on their powers more than heavy weapons and vehicles  because it makes sense. I don't need an army of big guns, I'll just use yours. Many times they have turned enemy weapons against themselves and yet the closest we ever got was a Tzeentch daemon specific power. And it was terrible. And it's a slap in the face knowing genestealer cults have it. And I think harlequins too. HUGE missed opportunity to make cult of manipulation more viable and give them a power like this. 

 

sorry. /rant. Having one of those mornings.

 

Let me regale you with the tale of Lash of Submission. 

 

Many editions ago in the 4th edition chaos codex (which was one of the biggest disappointments after the magnificently insane 3.5 edition codex). There was a Slaanesh power called Lash of Submission.

 

You selected a visible enemy unit within 24" moved it in any direction by 2d6" and then it took a pinning test.

 

In 4th edition you could only take two HQ choices, but there was no limit on casting the same power twice. So you could run two lash sorcerers and effectively move any of your opponents units 4d6". This power almost single handedly propped up one of the most boring/terrible Chaos codexes of all time.

 

I might be wrong but I don't think there's been a direct movement manipulation power since. It's just too gamebreaking. 

 

Heh, as mentioned previously I have been a thousand son since late 2nd, early 3rd. I am veeeeery familiar with lash. My buddy used to love lashing units in a tight little group to be hit by a demolisher cannon blast. This brings back memories...... I remember when cult rules were introduced in chapter approved and every one was scratch building rubric terminators . Before that our only power before 3.5 was basically a lascanon that was shot in the movement phase, rubrics completely ignoring S4 and lower weapons,  rubrics could be charged but never do the charging themselves, fishing for greater daemon summoning on 6's.... Zany and fun times.

 

 

I don't think my post alluded to movement manipulation. The two existing examples I give are the genestealer and harliquin powers that take over enemy shooting I believe. Which exist now. Hell no I don't want movement manipulation, just the ability to take over an enemy unit or model. As it currently exists within the game, it is not game breaking to do something like: take a ld 3d6, if you fail you get to fire the weapons as if it was your model. I think this is the genestealer one. But I would be happy if it was simply like the necron Anrakyr where he can control a single gun on a model. The thousand sons lore gives examples of this. Sorcerors overriding the circuits or mind of a person or machine to to make them fire upon themselves/friendlies. Genestealers can do this, why not us? These mechanics exist already, they can fit right in.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Ahzek451

[The Yncarne]

I do not recall a Harlequin stratagem, relic, or phantasmy power that enables some level of control over an opponent's models. I'm not super up on the psychic awakening stuff.

[Ahzek451]

I do not recall a Harlequin stratagem, relic, or phantasmy power that enables some level of control over an opponent's models. I'm not super up on the psychic awakening stuff.

Yeah I'm not solid if the harliquins got it. I thought they did. But I know genestealers do. 

[Prot]

I have another game tonight... and I know this is short notice. I am not sure what I'm up against but this time it looks like it could be DG, or Mechanicus, or Guard.

 

So without worrying about tailoring, or opponents, I have been trying to make a list I like. 

 

I keep coming back to the same favorites, and a few choices that usually don't work. As well I keep giving myself a headache with the dizzying amount of CP I blow pre-game for a zillion relics, and detachments.

 

So I'm torn between 1 Detachment (Time / Knowledge / Duplicity?) 

Or a Bat of (Knowledge / Duplicity) and  a patrol of Time Terminators x 10 with Tzaangors and an Exalted Sorc.

 

Things I keep taking even though I think they stink: 2 x Forgefiends (BUT this time I'm taking each with 3 Ectoplasmas)

 

Question: Blast always confuses me. If I have 3 weapons that are D3 blast on a Forgefiend, what would be the minimum he would shoot at a 20 man squad? 10 man squad?

 

Things I think are good, that I should be using instead are probably Helbrutes. (I only own 1 but can proxy my Decimator for a game for a second one.)

 

Finally the one unit I enjoy the most is the 10 man Scarab Unit. I don't know if it's a good long term competitive play, but they are fun. But they gobble CP like crazy.

 

In the fun but strangely useful category I have my Spawn. I have 4 but I prefer to get in no less than 2, and 3 is usually best.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

So the above is my thinking, the list for today:

Duplicity:

 

Ahriman

Exalted on Disk (follows termies)

Infernal Master

Free Slot: Sorc

 

2 x 5 rubrics (one with flamers and Incadeum)

10 Goats

 

2 x 5 SoT loaded up

 

Contemptor: dual Volkite Culverin (This is new for me to try on my contemptor, since it has core keyword I believe).

Helbrute Plasma

Helbrute MM

 

Spawn x3

Forgefiend Ecto

Rhin w/Combi melta

 

That's 1988 points out of 2K.

 

Thoughts?

 

+EDIT+

 

Just looking at the list and thinking how I am trying to forcibly change my mind set, I decided to drop one termie squad (which I normally would never go with less than 10). Since this is Duplicity, I can hop around.

 

My plan is: Exalted Sorc is going to be the front runner with Termies: He's running Conniving Plate as a result (I always used it on my beloved Daemon Prince which I have pulled from this list!) The Exalted also gets Dilettante, getting him Egleighen's Orrery which I will use every turn on the cluster of Termies OR one of the Helbrutes OR Contemptor. Depending on the situation.

 

By removing 5 termies, I get another squad of Rubric flamers with another Cadaeum and another Combi-Melta Rhino.

 

I like that this has 4 troops with more bodies. A good mix of walkers.

 

What I am seriously lacking though is the good, potent Mortal wound damaging attacks. I have Twist of Fate (as always) and Glamour, Weaver, Surge, etc.. .a lot of utility powers, but the only actual damage power in the army (aside from smite) is Firestorm on Ahriman. 

 

I'm a little worried about this. But I can juggle it a bit. I'm not a big fan of putting tough tests on the SoT's, or Rubrics, as they do well with Smite + utility. I may move utility entirely over to those squads to let Ahriman/Exalted/Sorc do some damage?

Edited August 27, 2021 by Prot

[Mushkilla]

Question: Blast always confuses me. If I have 3 weapons that are D3 blast on a Forgefiend, what would be the minimum he would shoot at a 20 man squad? 10 man squad?

 

Does 3 hits against 6+ models. So against a unit of 6 terminators a triple ecto fiend will do 9 hits. D3 weapons are nice as they always do max hits against 6+ models (as 3 is the same as max for them).

 

I'm not the best person to comment on the rest of the list as I currently only run rubrics. 

 

You could use the 10pts you have left over to get an icon of flame though If you can't find anything else to spend it on.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Mushkilla

[Cleon]

Question: Blast always confuses me. If I have 3 weapons that are D3 blast on a Forgefiend, what would be the minimum he would shoot at a 20 man squad? 10 man squad?

 

The rule is, if a blast weapon fires at a unit with 6+ models in it fires a minimum of three shots.

 

The Forgefiend in question has three separate D3 shot Blast weapons, so will do 3 shots per weapon, for 9 shots on any unit targeted that has 6 or more models when the Forgefiend starts shooting (shooting from the unit is done at the same time so even if you roll one at a time, and kill one of the 6 with the first plasma it is still 3 each from the other two). So the answer is 9 at 20 man and 9 at 10 man (all the way down to 6). The extra rule for 'max shots' at 11+ models is irrelevant as you are already firing maximum shots (3) at 6+ models in the target unit.

 

Where I get a bit fuzzy is a single weapon with multiple dice, but thankfully that hasn't come up yet, my interpretation is if it was 2D6, you'd only get the blast benefit on a double 1 until the unit is big enough for the 'max shots' rule to kick in at 11+ models.

[Mushkilla]

Where I get a bit fuzzy is a single weapon with multiple dice, but thankfully that hasn't come up yet, my interpretation is if it was 2D6, you'd only get the blast benefit on a double 1 until the unit is big enough for the 'max shots' rule to kick in at 11+ models.

 

 

You are correct. Why rapid fire battlecannons make my chaos knights sad. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Mushkilla