9th Edition Thousand Sons Codex Game Feedback

[Mushkilla]

If I was running the brick, I would also be more inclined to run the cult of scheming. The relic would help to offset the high CP demand.

 

Right but it's one use. If you're running the brick you want cult of time for bringing models back. Having to pay 2CP for the second detachment to get scheming seems counter productive as it doesn't net you any CP (2CP for the extra detachment, 1CP for the extra relic).

[Ahzek451]

True, I geuss it depends on how you look at it. If you were going to run two cults anyway, I wouldn't bother myself so much from that cp cost. Which I might do to have super obsec rubrics that can flame, fall back, and flame again. And that's assuming you are taking a second relic. Most likely you are.

 

I think the growing trend is to run 2 cults, and extra relics. The relic can at least help a touch when running that strat.

[Balthamal]

So played a crusade game Sunday. Ran:

 

Cult of Time

 

Ex Sorc /w Scroll, Warlord, Immaterial Echo

Term Sorc

Infernal Master

5 Rubricae /w soulreaper, bolters, icon

5 SOT /w soulreaper, hellfyre

10 cultists

10 Tzangors

Contemptor /w VOLCUL

 

Played against a scion list with lots of plasma, melta a demolisher and manticore - rolled Ritual crusade mission and since it fit I was Defender

 

Star of the show was the Exalted Sorc - landed super smites and Firestorm at least once per turn despite being forced into the psychic action for scoring VPs. Contemptor got 1 shot by the demolisher so not really seen how effective it can be, SOT were rock solid as expected - they killed enough models to wipe out 3 units due to combat attrition. Shockingly the cultists and tzangors survived until turn 4 and totted up enough points for me to get away with a draw despite being tabled.

 

Think I need more rubrics for some durability and better offensive output plus the extra smite and cabal points won't hurt. Might look into a forgefiend as well since the second the contemptor is gone I'm relying on MW spam to kill anything over T5. 

 

Loved the game though and the character centric focus of the army appeals massively

[Mushkilla]

Had a game against Space Marine Phobos list with a load of units with Concealed Positions.

 

My list was similar to before (i.e a load of flamer rubrics), I'm running two squads of 10 and 4 squads of 5. This time I had a Cult of Magic patrol.

 

The game was very one sided, Thousand Sons are really good against power armour armies.

 

Two interesting things came out of it.

 

I was defender. I used Risen Rubricae to deploy a line of 10 flamer rubrics in a line 9" from my opponents deployment zone (this was my first unit placement). This shut down the deployment shenanigans completely. I then used the Master of Misinformation to redeploy them in my deployment zone at the start of the game (so as not to sacrifice them). When you have an army that's built around being able to set up within 9" of your opponent and you suddenly can't things don't end well. Well worth 2CP.

 

The other discovery was you can use the Psychic Maelstrom ritual to cast Astral Blast with a non Cult of Magic unit. This is awesome, as I can now Sorcerous facade a unit of Rubrics and then cast Astral Blast with them. Makes splashing Cult of Magic very appealing. 

[Xenith]

The more and more I look at the cults, the more I see their value. Initially I wrote off all of them but Time and Duplicity. Still unsure whether it's going to be worth 2CP to add in a patrol of a second, though. Perhaps with duplicity to allow for redeployment/gating, as that actively helps you win games/objectives.  

[Ahzek451]

How do people feel about rhinos? I think they could be viable choices. For under 100, get a relitevely tough little vehicle that can zoom around and be more of a threat than anyone else's rhino. A good candidate for the warpflame gargoyles, a 5++, inferno rounds. I know the popular choice is combi-melt, but I plan on giving 2 bolters, and a havoc launcher a chance. And I don't plan to tote around rubrics. I prefer to use these as objective grabbers that can zoom around and park and pump out some shots. Depending on the matchup and game, you can choose to safeguard a rubric squad inside one, hop out, and do any movement spell shenanigans. 

Anybody else have thoughts on them?

[Xenith]

They seem great, and able to put out an amount of firepower similar to a MSU rubric unit.

 

I wouldn't include any until I had enough INFANTRY to perform actions, etc, so maybe not at 1000pts, but then maybe 1-2 at 1500 - 2000?

 

On the other hand, it's 10W at T7 with 3+/5++, so a lot tougher than a MSU unit. With 2x combi bolters and a havoc, might it be a useful replacement for a unit that would otherwise camp an objective at the back?

Edited September 8, 2021 by Xenith

[Mushkilla]

Rhinos seem pretty useful. I agree with running them empty. They are great movement blockers and screens. I'd run them if I was running other vehicles/mutaliths. My issue with them in infantry heavy lists is that they just give your opponents AT something to shoot.

 

 

I wouldn't include any until I had enough INFANTRY to perform actions, etc, so maybe not at 1000pts, but then maybe 1-2 at 1500 - 2000?

 

Out of curiosity what actions do you do? I always end up taking Stranglehold, Wrath of Magnus/To the Last/Grind them Down and a Warpcraft secondary. So haven't really felt the need for units to perform actions. 

[GreenPlasma]

I have been wondering if a pair of Pred Destructors wouldn’t also work in that role. They’re quite a bit more expensive to lose than Rhinos but their shooting gives them a little more capability as well.

[Mushkilla]

I have been wondering if a pair of Pred Destructors wouldn’t also work in that role. They’re quite a bit more expensive to lose than Rhinos but their shooting gives them a little more capability as well.

 

Vindicators might be another decent choice. T8 2+/5++ is nice (we can push this further with -1 to hit and a 4++). They also benefit a lot from our buffs. Presage to hit on 2+, Emperic Guidance for 30" range and Glimpse of Eternity to re-roll the number of shots. You can even use Sorcerous Infusion to get -4 AP and eliminate any saves on a 3+ save target. 

[Xenith]

Rhinos seem pretty useful. I agree with running them empty. They are great movement blockers and screens. I'd run them if I was running other vehicles/mutaliths. My issue with them in infantry heavy lists is that they just give your opponents AT something to shoot.

 

 

I wouldn't include any until I had enough INFANTRY to perform actions, etc, so maybe not at 1000pts, but then maybe 1-2 at 1500 - 2000?

 

Out of curiosity what actions do you do? I always end up taking Stranglehold, Wrath of Magnus/To the Last/Grind them Down and a Warpcraft secondary. So haven't really felt the need for units to perform actions. 

 

Admittedly this is with not having too many games in with my Sons. Things like Scramblers, homers etc, or whatever the 2021 version of them is, requires infantry actions. 

[Ahzek451]

2+ and t8 is nice. I have seen some people include vindicators successfully. But it does drive me nuts that a lascannon seems zero difference between a 2+/5++ t8 and a 3+/5++ T7 rhino. In situations like this, I do miss the old wounding chart. 

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Two interesting things came out of it.

 

I was defender. I used Risen Rubricae to deploy a line of 10 flamer rubrics in a line 9" from my opponents deployment zone (this was my first unit placement). This shut down the deployment shenanigans completely. I then used the Master of Misinformation to redeploy them in my deployment zone at the start of the game (so as not to sacrifice them). When you have an army that's built around being able to set up within 9" of your opponent and you suddenly can't things don't end well. Well worth 2CP.

 

 

So stealing this!

[WarriorFish]

[snip]Nefarious scheming here[/snip]

Ok, I've figured you out now - looks like we found Tzeentch everyone. Good game, all! This one only took thirteen years, who's turn is it to hide next?

 

This kind of thing is great, not just good play but a highly appropriate example of what Thousand Sons can and should be doing. Messing with your opponents plans, then disappearing from reach afterwards - fantastic stuff and a perfect demonstration of the merits of knowing your army. It's important enough anyway but with so many moving parts it's vital for Sons.

 

Unfortunately I'm not quite getting the time to progress on the hobby, but I can at least try to read through the codex to learn more by heart. A Sorcerer must be well read after all

[Ahzek451]

 

[snip]Nefarious scheming here[/snip]

Ok, I've figured you out now - looks like we found Tzeentch everyone. Good game, all! This one only took thirteen years, who's turn is it to hide next?

 

This kind of thing is great, not just good play but a highly appropriate example of what Thousand Sons can and should be doing. Messing with your opponents plans, then disappearing from reach afterwards - fantastic stuff and a perfect demonstration of the merits of knowing your army. It's important enough anyway but with so many moving parts it's vital for Sons.

 

Unfortunately I'm not quite getting the time to progress on the hobby, but I can at least try to read through the codex to learn more by heart. A Sorcerer must be well read after all

 

I certainly appreciate this group of Exalted Sorcerers. A fantastic source of gamers and hobbyist that can be difficult to find elsewhere(the facebook page). Fantastic ideas and thoughts all around, great attitudes. It does make one feel like a collective of sorcerers, on Sortiarius gathering in a tower to plot and scheme 

[Mushkilla]

Ok, I've figured you out now - looks like we found Tzeentch everyone. Good game, all! This one only took thirteen years, who's turn is it to hide next?

Haha! I don't think so? I guess I did play blue in MTG once.  

 

This kind of thing is great, not just good play but a highly appropriate example of what Thousand Sons can and should be doing. Messing with your opponents plans, then disappearing from reach afterwards - fantastic stuff and a perfect demonstration of the merits of knowing your army. It's important enough anyway but with so many moving parts it's vital for Sons.

Honestly, if you like combos this book is amazing. It's compassable nature gives it a load of depth without making it overly complicated, byzantine or bureaucratic (see admech).

 

I certainly appreciate this group of Exalted Sorcerers. A fantastic source of gamers and hobbyist that can be difficult to find elsewhere(the facebook page). Fantastic ideas and thoughts all around, great attitudes. It does make one feel like a collective of sorcerers, on Sortiarius gathering in a tower to plot and scheme 

 

Totally! Tzeentch hasn't blessed me with enough fingers to count how many brilliant ideas I've stolen from this thread alone! 

[WarriorFish]

This is what the B&C is about I need to get to grips with 9th and with that my armies as they get new codices, especially for my Sons as now my regular opponents have increased the number of Grey Knight armies to two and I suspect they'll be a tougher match up. Plus it's the principle - when it comes to psychic magnificence the answer must only be the Sons of Magnus...

[Mushkilla]

Nefarious scheming of the day

The conditions for Psychic Interrogation can still be satisfied characters that ignore the effects of psychic powers. 
 
"One PSYKER CHARACTER unit from your army can attempt to perform this psychic action in your Psychic phase if it is within 24" of any visible enemy CHARACTER models."
 
It doesn't actually target anything. You just need to be within 24" of a visible character model to be able to perform the action. So if your opponent is going to put Celestine in the middle of the table and make her immune to psychic powers with a dogmata, or run a Culexus against you can easily score 15 on that secondary. Assuming they don't just hide all their characters.

 

The Imperium's deadliest psyker hunting assassin sent after you? - What a wonderful opportunity to learn its secrets. #arroganceOfAeons

[Prot]

How do people feel about rhinos? I think they could be viable choices. For under 100, get a relitevely tough little vehicle that can zoom around and be more of a threat than anyone else's rhino. A good candidate for the warpflame gargoyles, a 5++, inferno rounds. I know the popular choice is combi-melt, but I plan on giving 2 bolters, and a havoc launcher a chance. And I don't plan to tote around rubrics. I prefer to use these as objective grabbers that can zoom around and park and pump out some shots. Depending on the matchup and game, you can choose to safeguard a rubric squad inside one, hop out, and do any movement spell shenanigans. 

 

Anybody else have thoughts on them?

 

 

I started out using 2 Rhino's per game, both with additional combi-melta's. This gives me 3-6 infernal Bolt shots, and a melta shot per turn. Plus the 5++ is decent.

 

No one likes shooting at Rhino's. They are my 'stay at home' unit. They can block out well or at the very least you can steer the opponent to be forced into dropping closer to them, and typically (depending on the opponent) they hate being steered towards a rhino block.

 

I also think the other thing is absorbing other smites vs. GK is another good selling point (though I have not played vs. GK since the codex dropped).

 

Finally, I find against really good infantry killers, or good indirect fire armies, I have loved having the option of starting 2 Flamebric units aboard. Not only that but even if it's just one unit, you get a 'bonus' move: 

 

-deploy within 3" + 6+ advance roll + Surge 6" = Flamebroiled sisters of battle! WOOHOO. (Sorry my hatred for that army grows stronger and stronger until I can focus on our newer bane: Black Templars)

 

 

I have been wondering if a pair of Pred Destructors wouldn’t also work in that role. They’re quite a bit more expensive to lose than Rhinos but their shooting gives them a little more capability as well.

 

Vindicators might be another decent choice. T8 2+/5++ is nice (we can push this further with -1 to hit and a 4++). They also benefit a lot from our buffs. Presage to hit on 2+, Emperic Guidance for 30" range and Glimpse of Eternity to re-roll the number of shots. You can even use Sorcerous Infusion to get -4 AP and eliminate any saves on a 3+ save target. 

 

 

So I've been trying to convince myself of the Vindicator since day one of the new codex. 5++ on a T8 platform has always been enticing to me, and yes, the Glimpse of Eternity is a really great add on for either the shots, or even the damage if need be. (D6 is so spikey!) (I think I might add the shield to if I have 10 points to spare)

 

But since I fell in love with Egleighen's Orrery, almost all my focus shifts to the Core units.

 

That said I personally have been trying to keep one highly experimental unit per game in my lists. This has changed a lot over time, but I'm slowly growing fondest of the Tri-Ecto Forgefiend. So many opponents are using 6-10 man squads that having an auto 9 shots with this dude is just so nice. He's not the best, but at 155 points, he's really... not that bad.

 

My next experimental unit that I used to use all the time is at least 1 Baledrake. The new strats, the new rules for him spanking units with fly is nice, and I like the threat range and tying things up in T1 where possible. So I'd like to revisit my dual drake list.

 

Finally, the other unit I still consider testing is the Fire Raptor. This thing has been sitting on my shelf forever. Aside from Black Legion, I think this is the best fit for it. (It's just so darn point heavy.)

[Mushkilla]

Came across these two great report vs sisters:

https://toysofmassdestruction.com/2021/08/18/warhammer-40k-thousand-sons-vs-adepta-sororitas-2000-points/

In the second report they swap armies the sister's players thousand sons list seemed much stronger.

https://toysofmassdestruction.com/2021/09/10/warhammer-40k-adepta-sororitas-vs-thousand-sons/

There was a small mistake (Tzangor enlightened on disks lose the infantry keyword and become cavalry which prevents them from doing ROD).

Still well worth a read. I quite like the idea of running two infernal masters.

Nefarious scheming of the day

Chronos Tutorium lets you pick a warlord trait during the game. I quite like this for in game tailoring.

Take a psychic action secondary? Select Seeker after Shadows.

Opponent have psykers? Take Arrogance of Aeons. Get a re-roll to deny.

Or my favourite take Forbidden Lore and adapt your psychic powers... Need a Twist of Fate? Done. Sure you can use Unholy Sussurus to do this but I really like the flexibility this gives.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Mushkilla

[brother_b]

Speaking of the Rubric line of denial and then magic move, I think the line would break 9th edition unit coherency rules... 

 

The models would have to be within 2” of two other models at a unit size of 6+. I only realized after talking with our T Sons player. 

[Mushkilla]

Speaking of the Rubric line of denial and then magic move, I think the line would break 9th edition unit coherency rules... 

 

The models would have to be within 2” of two other models at a unit size of 6+. I only realized after talking with our T Sons player.

 

You just need to do the bone set up. I.e a line of models 2" apart and at each end you have two models within range of the last model.

 

Gives you a 24" line roughly. Once you take into account 9" area around that you can block off 40-42" of the table. Shutting down all their deployment on vertical deployment and 70-80% of it on horizontal deployment.

 

I'll see if I can find time to diagram it.

 

EDIT: Most of these infiltration style deployments require you to 9" away from enemy deployment zone and enemy models. So in the example below the Thousands Sons are in deployment zone A. The straight blue line represents 9" from the Thousand Sons deployment zone. Player B basically has nowhere to infiltrate.

 

 

This is also useful against pre-game moves like Blood Angels Forlorn Fury as they happen at the start of the first battle round (at the same time that Master Misinformator is triggered).

 

"That unit can make a Normal Move of up to 12" as if it were your Movement phase, but must end that move more than 9" away from any enemy models..."

 

Core rule book under sequencing:

 

 "... If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved."

 

Suddenly a pregame move only has a 50% chance of being doing anything. In the case of stratagem based pre-game moves this makes your opponent much less likely to use them. For example in the case of Forlorn Fury a 50% chance that 2CP does nothing is not great.

Edited September 11, 2021 by Mushkilla

[brother_b]

This is great thanks for the visualization! Very powerful strat I had a game with T-Sons today it’s was brutal! Just a crusade game at 500 points game but still very neat to see all the options T-Sons have.

[Balthamal]

Got another 2 crusade games in yesterday. Only addition made the (previous) army were an extra 5 rubricae with flamers. Played Blood Angels this time around containing:

 

Bike Chaplain

Priest /w jump pack

10 intercessors

5 infiltrators

5 assault termies (3 hammers 2 claws)

5 bladeguard

Impulsor

 

Game 1: Recon

 

Got absolutely battered. Managed to kill 6 models the whole game because of Transhuman and the priest just healing 3W models over and over. That and only managing to get 1 unit per turn out of reserves and single units getting spanked by the bladeguard at a time. Didn't really think the list was overkill but not having any concentrated fire/attacks on the bladeguard/terms just made it a forgone conclusion after the top of turn 2

 

Game 2: Relic

 

Lot more even. Only lost 5 rubrics and the tzangors to start, the terminators came in and were absolute bosses but had to waste pretty much all the psychic MWs on clearing the impulsor and then *trying* to shoot the bladeguard off the relic. Managed to kill the chaplain and priest the following psychic phase but the chaplain wiped the terminators (fight before death) and the terminators barely took a scratch bar 2 MW before mopping up handily after that.

 

So thoughts. Need a Forgefiend in this list. The lack of AT in a 1ksons army is gruesome. MW spam is just not effective in any way shape or form. The volkite culverin on the contemptor seems nice but AP- is worthless against marines, even with the -1AP strat brought into play so maybe a lascannon just for something that's going to make sure whatever it hits, stays hit. Definitely need more psychic support too. Possibly another exalted sorc since they do so much carrying - probably one more focused on being a buffer of some description rather than a damage output variety. The Tzangors and cultists are quite honestly worthless, they're not accomplishing anything of note never mind value. Which brings us on to...

 

It's becoming obvious fairly quickly now the games are starting to come in just how much synergy there isn't in a thousand sons list when you compare it to others out there. I'm reliably informed that Blood Angels and marines in general are relatively weak or at best, middle of the road, yet they have combinations and overlap that is head and shoulders above this dex. Disregarding the relics/warlord trait abilities because that's another topic, you have a straightforward ability to set out a unit with a 2+/4++/6+++ ignoring AP1 without any psychic powers, rites or doctrines. Yes it's certainly possible to stack several things on SOT for instance but that's all coming at risk - Perils. In fairness, SOT are a great unit, their offensive output has been stellar in every game I've played, but unless you dedicate a sorcerer and an infernal master to setting them up, they're still weaker than vanilla Blight Lords. Just seems...watered down if that's the right term.

 

Which sort of justifies my initial feelings on the tksons since 8th landed: we shouldn't be a stand alone chaos army. if dark angels can be unreal as a supplement to c:sm there's nothing to say tksons couldn't be the same to csm. That and I stand by my statement that having 7 or 8 unique datasheets (not including characters) does not deserve an independent dex. In all honesty the fact that we can't take any of the daemon units from csm like possessed or oblits is unjustifiable.

 

Of course I could be entirely wrong and it could be that I played a ball breakingly good BA list but definitely feeling the absence of our stuff more than seeing the plethora of options on the other side of the board

Edited September 13, 2021 by Balthamal

[Ahzek451]

I think you will find that people would be pretty divided on the standalone dex thought. Sure currently the small codex is pretty disheartening and boring at times, but I'm one of those that are in the camp that we are truly different from our loyalist kin. I've felt this way since 2nd.

For loyalists, makes sense that they share a parent book because they have a set of rules and standards that offer moderate deviation at most. Still supplied by much of the same tech and practices of the imperium. For chaos, particularly the god legions, all semblance of shared structure is out of the window. I am totally ok with not sharing oblits, possessed, venomcrawlers, etc. We should have our own unique list of daemon engines and warmachines akin to the death guard. The fluff is there, unfortunately the business that exists in the real world has not caught up to that yet. I do feel that, in the company's mind we are somehwere on the back burner for this. We just have to hang on until that happens. That's the only reason we still have access to helbrutes, defilers, heldrakes, and the dinobots. Because GW has not filled out our army with new models yet.

You can see it being done to the death guard slowly, they do not have access to as many daemon engines as we do because they have some unique ones already. And I would beleive, if GW had it their way sooner or later the rest will be fazed out when new kits come out. I wouldn't be surprised when the defiler finally goes away or gets an update. One of the last old/new models out there. (We dont count predators, rhinos, or vindicators).

 

I'd hate to see us given access to the other generic chaos stuff, as the fluff is on shaky ground for justifying it, and as I mentioned above just by looking at the pattern you can dissect GW's vision and I would be most upset converting thousand sons oblits, possessed, etc. Only to have them taken out of the book when new models arrive.

 

I suppose that's what allies are for.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Ahzek451