9th Edition Thousand Sons Codex Game Feedback

[Balthamal]

I agree. We SHOULD have those things. We should have a dex of 40+ unique datasheets instead of 70% recycled ones from the CSM dex. But we need to be semi realistic. If we were going to get the models to match this design philosophy, we'd have had them at the same time as the initial launch wave, or at latest, during the 8th ed release because the DG dex just highlighted even more what a half- :cuss job was done on it as a stand alone. No one can honestly say in good faith that a dex with a clear majority of it's units being duplicates from a "parent" dex deserves it's own place in the range. 

 

Granted, there's huge differences between the Legions and Chapters, both lore and rules wise. But the one commonality between all 9 Legions is using the Warp to make and maintain weapons/equipment/soldiers. Worth remembering too that CSM armies can take Rubric Marines/Plague Marines/Noise Marines/Zerkers. Does it make much sense for Thousand Sons to have raptors or havocs or bikers? No - those are actually living warriors not born of Thousand Sons gene seed and adding those things to a thrall band through detachments is already a mechanism that's in place. But daemon units? Is a possessed unit in the thrallband out of the question? All the various daemon engines? Sorry but no. If there's not going to be the time and effort put into making the range unique (more than 7 datasheets unique at least) then they should do what was done for the marines and make them supplements to an overall list. Take BA. Aside from half a dozen characters, they have Sanguinary Priests, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Baal Preds and 3 variations on dreadnoughts. If one army with 7 unique sheets is a supplement, why not another?

[Ahzek451]

I see what you are saying, but its somewhat missing my point. As I mentioned, this issue is highly subjective on what one feels what is right or not. I am saying that despite how some feel, looking at the pattern, the direction we are headed in is showing that we are on a track for not sharing too much from the chaos marines. The arguement of what makes sense of who can share what has been one waged since 3.5. This is not one anyone is going to win. Case in point, you could argue for an age on whether we should have possessed. Can the sorcerer's be possessed? Absolutely. But as the narrative states, the amount of non-dust astartes are sorcerers and we dont exactly have a large supply of those. I cant see entire squads of them as possessed, maybe an occasional character here and there. That would be the argument against. An argument for it would be if you went the helbrute route and enslaves other legion astartes. In either case, GW has deemed it not a thing for us to have entire squads of them for now.

 

We should have more, everyone can agree to that. But you also have to understand where things have fallen based on GW's actions.

 

Historically, as far as I understood it, GW has had an interest in splitting the god legions for some time. The thousand sons were 1st. An experiment. And so GW didnt go "full in".

At one point they shifted gears a bit and went mostly "full in" with death guard. Consequently leaving us in the dust(ha). An unfortunate side affect of circumstance.

 

Mind you, it takes a few years for GW to get back around to an army for new models. With occasional tiny release here and there (new infernal master). So I'd say we are approaching a window anytime going forward. I'm not saying soon, just...anytime from here on. Let us hope for a surprise splash but I would bet the children of Fulgrim or Angron to be next.

 

That being said, it seems clear the model GW wants to go with(for the time being), and puting a little perspective behind it, I would not expect to see going back to a merged codex simply by looking at the patterns and what GW has already done. Or sharing models.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Ahzek451

[Mushkilla]

Of course I could be entirely wrong and it could be that I played a ball breakingly good BA list but definitely feeling the absence of our stuff more than seeing the plethora of options on the other side of the board

 

 

Thanks for sharing. A few points:

 

1. Crusade missions are a disaster from a balance perspective (they are basically a riff on 8th edition's terrible missions). These missions reward running into each other making chainsword noises. The Relic has been known as one of the worst designed 40k mission of all time.

GT2021 Matchplay missions are a lot more objective focused, the game is not about killing but playing the mission. You can win the game without killing any thing and getting tabled if you played the mission better than your opponent.

 

2. The game is very swingy at 1000 points especially for assault armies as the board is half the size. It's also much worse for us as we get half the CP and a lot less cabal points. Both are crucial to how our army functions. 

 

3. Power level is terrible when it comes to balance. Not all upgrades are created equally, power level punishes factions that don't have super expensive unit upgrades. Case and point 5 Retributors with bolters is 6 power or 60pts. 5 Retributors with 4 multi-meltas and 2 cherubs is  6 power or 150pts! That's over double, and that change is not captured in the power level system.

 

4. Blood Angels are actually good. Even better on a smaller board in a low points game. Space Marines in general are good. Two Space Marine factions featured in the top 5 most competitive factions on the Art of War youtube channel. They might not be Drukhari/Admech good but they are still a fantastic faction.

 

5. Blood Angels/Space Marines are obvious in their combos, power and synergy. Thousand Sons are not, we are a finesse army that amounts to playing slightly tougher Eldar with 6" movement. If you want an army that runs a death ball with a load of auras we are not that army.

 

Hope that helps. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Mushkilla

[Ahzek451]

To add on to what Mushkilla said, the distinct pleasure of playing sons is that our synergies are very mutable. The ability to pick and choose who can grant what boon or bane from anyone and to have that flexibility is sometimes overlooked. It's so incredibly powerful. Especially if there is not one single build that is all powerful.

 

Most abilities are locked into certain models and combos so you can always know what to expect when you see it in the table. Not so much in the land of sorcerers. And the fact that so many changes can be expressed using the same exact models is incredible.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Ahzek451

[Xenith]

One super trick I read that I hadn't even considered yet was Thryydrghyre, you can actually charge in, make your attacks, then consolidate 6" out of melee, and the opponent can do nothing to you, as long as you attack with them first. Also useful if you're charged, unless the opponent attacks you first, you can spend 2cp to interrupt, then attack and move 6" outa dodge. 

 

 

Got another 2 crusade games in yesterday. Only addition made the (previous) army were an extra 5 rubricae with flamers. Played Blood Angels this time around containing:

 

Bike Chaplain

Priest /w jump pack

10 intercessors

5 infiltrators

5 assault termies (3 hammers 2 claws)

5 bladeguard

Impulsor

 

Game 1: Recon

 

Got absolutely battered. 

 

Yea, that list just doesn't really care about D1 weapons like the flamers, and it built to be resilient. Key would be killing off that priest, because he's worth essentially 300pts of terminator over the course of the game. That said, TS can bring termies back with cult of time, and the strat (again, as you say, marines can pay 20/30 pts and that strat becomes free, with no caveats like rolling a 9+). Bladeguard would go down to mass S4D1 shooting as transhuman is no help there, but again you have to wipe a squad in one go. 

 

The army is also pretty slow, so I'd be trying to play to objectives and win that way. Painful in Crusade, as you get XP for killing, not necessarily for winning. 

[GreenPlasma]

Really enjoying this last exchange. I’m sure TS will eventually get more unique models, the desire is definitely there. But this being a tactics thread I will try to stay constructive. Before getting into details though, one of the ironic things about wargaming is we often learn more from our losses than our victories. Focusing on the process of learning rather than pure results can help to take the sting out of defeat. There is really no ultimate failure provided we learned something, right?

 

Anyways — that BA list has very little presence in the shooting phase and none in the psychic phase. So it’s essentially an assault-only list and the real battle is in move blocking, catching charges and screening out DS. I don’t think a Forgefiend would help much in this context because as Mushkilla said, aside from all the balance concerns there is a heavy mission bias towards assault. So you need units that can bang in the midfield, race up the board to buy time by disrupting movement, cost-effectively screen out DS, whatever. 

 

We have a lot of great tools in these respects. 4++ chaff, teleporting units and double moves, 5++ Dreads with -1DR, a unique monster that can heal 2D3, an insane psychic power that halves movement and will combo with Bladed Maelstrom for -3 to charge and advance, and more. Even without models that aren’t in the SC or Hexfire, 20x Tzaangors with Glamour and Weaver would have been a burden to shift, especially if the Intercessor unit was debuffed to S3 shooting. We want that Relic Crozius going into them, not our 43ppw Terminator unit.

 

I like what Ahzek was saying about TS being focused on navigating our rules interactions, not choosing datasheets. And I like what Mushkilla was saying about finesse and subtlety, not obvious synergies like a Smash Chaplain build. This is a codex about opportunity cost and balancing risk/reward. Like what you mentioned Balthamal about Perils! Let’s be real, if TS was simple and brutally effective it would be a new meta army and Raiders and Skitarii would be going up on eBay. It’s not. But complex armies aren’t always weak, they just take a LOT of in-game practice to go beyond the theorycraft. And then adapt accordingly. 

 

 

Hang in there lads and lasses. 

[Xenith]

Yea, it's not like Smite cares about 1+/4++/6+++ profiles, after all. I think there's a good amount of witchfire powers that allow you to select the target for them, and a strat/cabal thing to do it with smite? One psychic phase should be enough to wipe out the priest, assuming you have the right powers. 

[Balthamal]

I see what you are saying, but its somewhat missing my point. As I mentioned, this issue is highly subjective on what one feels what is right or not. I am saying that despite how some feel, looking at the pattern, the direction we are headed in is showing that we are on a track for not sharing too much from the chaos marines. The arguement of what makes sense of who can share what has been one waged since 3.5. This is not one anyone is going to win. Case in point, you could argue for an age on whether we should have possessed. Can the sorcerer's be possessed? Absolutely. But as the narrative states, the amount of non-dust astartes are sorcerers and we dont exactly have a large supply of those. I cant see entire squads of them as possessed, maybe an occasional character here and there. That would be the argument against. An argument for it would be if you went the helbrute route and enslaves other legion astartes. In either case, GW has deemed it not a thing for us to have entire squads of them for now.

 

We should have more, everyone can agree to that. But you also have to understand where things have fallen based on GW's actions.

 

Historically, as far as I understood it, GW has had an interest in splitting the god legions for some time. The thousand sons were 1st. An experiment. And so GW didnt go "full in".

At one point they shifted gears a bit and went mostly "full in" with death guard. Consequently leaving us in the dust(ha). An unfortunate side affect of circumstance.

 

Mind you, it takes a few years for GW to get back around to an army for new models. With occasional tiny release here and there (new infernal master). So I'd say we are approaching a window anytime going forward. I'm not saying soon, just...anytime from here on. Let us hope for a surprise splash but I would bet the children of Fulgrim or Angron to be next.

 

That being said, it seems clear the model GW wants to go with(for the time being), and puting a little perspective behind it, I would not expect to see going back to a merged codex simply by looking at the patterns and what GW has already done. Or sharing models.

 

No I do actually get your point. My point is more concerned with the precedent set - if supplements are going to simply duplicate the vast majority of the data sheets, it makes absolutely no sense for a stand alone dex to do the same. And let's be honest, based on the current release model, we won't see any updates prior to 10th because there's other armies out there (justifiably) new units or at the very least, fresh kits on existing ones (looking at you poor aspect warriors)

 

 

Of course I could be entirely wrong and it could be that I played a ball breakingly good BA list but definitely feeling the absence of our stuff more than seeing the plethora of options on the other side of the board

 

 

Thanks for sharing. A few points:

 

1. Crusade missions are a disaster from a balance perspective (they are basically a riff on 8th edition's terrible missions). These missions reward running into each other making chainsword noises. The Relic has been known as one of the worst designed 40k mission of all time.

GT2021 Matchplay missions are a lot more objective focused, the game is not about killing but playing the mission. You can win the game without killing any thing and getting tabled if you played the mission better than your opponent.

 

2. The game is very swingy at 1000 points especially for assault armies as the board is half the size. It's also much worse for us as we get half the CP and a lot less cabal points. Both are crucial to how our army functions. 

 

3. Power level is terrible when it comes to balance. Not all upgrades are created equally, power level punishes factions that don't have super expensive unit upgrades. Case and point 5 Retributors with bolters is 6 power or 60pts. 5 Retributors with 4 multi-meltas and 2 cherubs is  6 power or 150pts! That's over double, and that change is not captured in the power level system.

 

4. Blood Angels are actually good. Even better on a smaller board in a low points game. Space Marines in general are good. Two Space Marine factions featured in the top 5 most competitive factions on the Art of War youtube channel. They might not be Drukhari/Admech good but they are still a fantastic faction.

 

5. Blood Angels/Space Marines are obvious in their combos, power and synergy. Thousand Sons are not, we are a finesse army that amounts to playing slightly tougher Eldar with 6" movement. If you want an army that runs a death ball with a load of auras we are not that army.

 

Hope that helps. 

 

 

Hooo boy some to get through here 

 

1) Balance I'm not too concerned with tbh. It's crusade. If I want perfectly (well, in theory) tuned I'd play matched haha but in all honesty, I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in getting into the matched scene and going through the meta shambles again. Doing that in 8th turned me off 40k for the best part of 2 years 

 

2) Dice man, if they're with you they're with you 

 

3) I'm not too turned to be truthful. I like being able to give a unit stuff that isn't necessarily "bad" but also clearly overcosted and such. I've got a mini event I'm running coming up soon and have sort of made clear that any attempt to game the living :cuss out of PL will be dealt with. Chaos terminators all with combi plas and fists springs to mind there....

 

4) Yeah I wasn't too certain on the whole marines aren't great angle to begin with and yesterday has hardened that opinion firmly in the negative. The sheer versatility available without needing powers or rites is pretty mind boggling.

 

5) I don't think not having (in comparison to SM anyway) auras etc is a weakness per se. It just pushes a lot more of a risk/reward element that is taking a lot of getting used to. Just one of those things in getting exp up with the army. Which also leads into...

 

One super trick I read that I hadn't even considered yet was Thryydrghyre, you can actually charge in, make your attacks, then consolidate 6" out of melee, and the opponent can do nothing to you, as long as you attack with them first. Also useful if you're charged, unless the opponent attacks you first, you can spend 2cp to interrupt, then attack and move 6" outa dodge. 

 

 

Got another 2 crusade games in yesterday. Only addition made the (previous) army were an extra 5 rubricae with flamers. Played Blood Angels this time around containing:

 

Bike Chaplain

Priest /w jump pack

10 intercessors

5 infiltrators

5 assault termies (3 hammers 2 claws)

5 bladeguard

Impulsor

 

Game 1: Recon

 

Got absolutely battered. 

 

Yea, that list just doesn't really care about D1 weapons like the flamers, and it built to be resilient. Key would be killing off that priest, because he's worth essentially 300pts of terminator over the course of the game. That said, TS can bring termies back with cult of time, and the strat (again, as you say, marines can pay 20/30 pts and that strat becomes free, with no caveats like rolling a 9+). Bladeguard would go down to mass S4D1 shooting as transhuman is no help there, but again you have to wipe a squad in one go. 

 

The army is also pretty slow, so I'd be trying to play to objectives and win that way. Painful in Crusade, as you get XP for killing, not necessarily for winning. 

 

 

Yeah this is something that became very obvious very quickly into the second game - the person had the benefit of knowing what I was running so built the bulk of the list to counter it (clearly in hindsight) which being truthful feels a bit of a :cuss move given it's crusade and taking a virtually unkillable unit just to put the foot down. Needless tbh, the hammernators were good enough on their own  That list would struggle against anything with D3 shooting though. Huge difference when 4 hits are sneaking through saves, FNP etc. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that particular unit would be seen fairly frequently in a comp list?

 

 

Really enjoying this last exchange. I’m sure TS will eventually get more unique models, the desire is definitely there. But this being a tactics thread I will try to stay constructive. Before getting into details though, one of the ironic things about wargaming is we often learn more from our losses than our victories. Focusing on the process of learning rather than pure results can help to take the sting out of defeat. There is really no ultimate failure provided we learned something, right?

 

Anyways — that BA list has very little presence in the shooting phase and none in the psychic phase. So it’s essentially an assault-only list and the real battle is in move blocking, catching charges and screening out DS. I don’t think a Forgefiend would help much in this context because as Mushkilla said, aside from all the balance concerns there is a heavy mission bias towards assault. So you need units that can bang in the midfield, race up the board to buy time by disrupting movement, cost-effectively screen out DS, whatever. 

 

We have a lot of great tools in these respects. 4++ chaff, teleporting units and double moves, 5++ Dreads with -1DR, a unique monster that can heal 2D3, an insane psychic power that halves movement and will combo with Bladed Maelstrom for -3 to charge and advance, and more. Even without models that aren’t in the SC or Hexfire, 20x Tzaangors with Glamour and Weaver would have been a burden to shift, especially if the Intercessor unit was debuffed to S3 shooting. We want that Relic Crozius going into them, not our 43ppw Terminator unit.

 

I like what Ahzek was saying about TS being focused on navigating our rules interactions, not choosing datasheets. And I like what Mushkilla was saying about finesse and subtlety, not obvious synergies like a Smash Chaplain build. This is a codex about opportunity cost and balancing risk/reward. Like what you mentioned Balthamal about Perils! Let’s be real, if TS was simple and brutally effective it would be a new meta army and Raiders and Skitarii would be going up on eBay. It’s not. But complex armies aren’t always weak, they just take a LOT of in-game practice to go beyond the theorycraft. And then adapt accordingly. 

 

 

Hang in there lads and lasses. 

 

 

That's good insight 

 

But also in this particular case it's crusade, there's no chopping and changing between games and such so I'm going to make the best of what I have and make the alterations gradually. And in all honesty the fiend isn't purely coming in for the above list - more for whatever comes after because if I'm struggling to pop an Impulsor, there's bigger tougher things out there I could end up staring down so something that's going to burn a bit is 100% on the menu 

[Mushkilla]

 

...if I'm struggling to pop an Impulsor...

 

 

But you shouldn't be struggling. Especially if your opponent is throwing it in front of his army.

 

So played a crusade game Sunday. Ran:

 

Cult of Time

 

Ex Sorc /w Scroll, Warlord, Immaterial Echo

Term Sorc

Infernal Master

5 Rubricae /w soulreaper, bolters, icon

5 SOT /w soulreaper, hellfyre

10 cultists

10 Tzangors

Contemptor /w VOLCUL

 

Taking your list. That's 5CP? 10 Cabal Points. 7 casts.

 

Smite 

Doombolt

Doombolt (Psychic Maelstrom 8 CA)

Smite (1CP Malefic Scroll)

Smite

Smite

Smite

 

9 + 4d3. That's 17MW before super smites. Even after your opponent will pop Armour of Contempt for a 5+++ that's still 11.3MW. Sure in practice you might fail to cast one of those smites, you have a command re-roll for that and super smites tend to balance this out. Worst case scenario you can always panic cast an extra witchfire with Great Sorcerer for 1CP.

 

Or you can do:

 

Smite (Malevolent charge 4 CAP if not super smite)

Doombolt

Firestorm (with athenaean scroll)

Smite (1CP Malefic Scroll)

Smite

Smite (Kindred Sorcerer 5CAP)

Smite

 

9+5d3. That's 19MW before super smites.

 

With 5 casts of smite brotherhood of sorcerers and kindred sorcerers you have very high chance of at least one super smite. If you use glimpse of eternity from your infernal master (re-roll one dice) you can use that to re-roll that d6MW.

 

If your opponent doesn't lead with the impulsor. That's 17-19W going into his elite infantry. He's going to have a bad time.

 

Sure you're not casting any buffs this turn. But that's the army, working out where to spend our three resources: Command Points, Cabal Points and Casts.

 

If you wanted to snipe the Priest:

 

Firestorm 

Firestorm (Psychic Maelstrom 8 CA)

Gaze of Hate (if you don't have this you can swap out for it with Unholy Sussurus).

 

Does about 5MW.

 

If you had 2 more Cabal Points in your list you could:

 

Firestorm (Malevolent Charge 4CA)

Firestorm (Psychic Maelstrom 8 CA)

Gaze of Hate (if you don't have this you can swap out for it with Unholy Sussurus).

 

Does about 6MW.

 

Getting comfortable with these sorts of combos can make a big difference to the effectiveness of our psychic phase. It's not just cast a bunch of powers and hope you roll well (like our old codex in 8th). There's now an element of composing the right spell. 

 

 

Yea, that list just doesn't really care about D1 weapons like the flamers...

 

Disclaimer: I really like warpflamers - After all for the galaxy to be reborn according to Magnus' glorious vision, must it not first be consumed by the fires of change?

 

It might not care about D1, but it does care about warpflamers. 9D6 S4 AP-2 shots does 10.5W to T4 3+. You can pop Pyric Flux and make it 14W. You can make it 17.5 with Pyric Flux and Wrath of the Wronged (just watch out for Transhuman).

 

You get an extra shooting phase when they charge you. It's glorious. 

 

Sure terminators/bladeguard are tougher, but you are still killing 2.5 of them every time you shoot/overwatch with 9 warpflamers. 

 

I mean 9D6 warpflamers with wrath of the wronged does 10.5W to an impulsor. 

 

As an Ork player once told me never underestimate the power of buckets of dice. 

[Prot]

I can see the one area I have to get better at is really focusing down opponent's' key characters. There are ways to spike damage, and I haven't quite dialed that in yet. 

 

SoB being my biggest nemesis often rely on some incredibly janky buffs. I can't get to Vaul for example, but Celestine is often trying to tank damage. And she'll have the bodyguard rule in affect with Sacresants (which are entirely too good for their points... or I wouldn't face 20 a game). It's mostly about positioning and knowing that with the right power, it gets around 'targeting' limitations, and can often be multiplied to effect, or have damage added to it.

 

It's knowing exactly what Witchfire to use, and how to get the models in the right spot.

 

As far as Blood Angels as a match up... I do think that can be a tougher one. I did lose my last game to BA by a narrow margin and it was a combination of 1) him not having a psyker, and having a very easy secondary, and 2) the aggressive style of his list gave me no 'time' or 'space'. 

 

BA in aggressive mode are extremely fast, and even though I eventually killed the entire army except for one tactical squad, I found I could not make up the points. I'd play it a bit differently, but screen units really don't work... I've never been a fan of screening, but this was a bad time to try it (with Tzaangors of all things). 

 

So don't beat yourself up. I put Wolves and Scars in the same category (except the Wolves are most likely of the bunch to take a psyker.)

[Ahzek451]

@ Balthamal

 

That's a pretty cemented prediction. Gw has already shown us some surprised via the necrons. I recall at that time they were nowhere on the rumor radar. But here they be. Who knows what may pop up.

 

And as to the duplicate datasheets. We may just have to agree to disagree a touch there. It makes a little sense considering how short the list of shared units is and that GW went out of the way to add in inferno bolters for ours. Clearly GW doesn't want every legion to share everything. Death guard have their new toys and lost the heldrake and dinobots. Not to mention the subtle difference in princes. I think the model is fine and makes sense as a temporary structure for future changes.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Ahzek451

[Mushkilla]

This list won the The Normal Blokes GT 2021.

1 detatchment

- battallion

- cult of time

- power for all models (bar ahriman = time flux)

--------------------------



+ HQ1+

Ahriman [10 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 180pts]:

- Powers: tzeentchs firestorm, doombolt, gaze of hate

- Disc of Tzeentch



+HQ2+

Exalted Sorcerer [7 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 115pts]:

- Powers: Glamour of Tzeentch, Weaver of Fates

- WARLORD: Trait= Immaterial Echo.

- Legion command: Paradigm of Change

- Relic: Umbralefic Crystal



+TROOP1+

10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts]

- Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.

- power: temporal surge

- 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun

- Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon



+TROOP2+

10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts]

- Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.

- power: temporal surge

- 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun

- Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon



+TROOP3+

10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts]

- Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.

- power: temporal surge

- 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun

- Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon



+TROOP4+

10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts]

- Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.

- power: temporal surge

- 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun

- Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon



+TROOP5+

10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts]

- Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.

- power: temporal surge

- 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun

- Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon



+ELITE1+

10 Scarab Occult Terminators [21 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 445pts]:

- aspiring sorcerer: inferno combi bolter, force staff. Power = temporal surge

- legion command: rites of coalescence

- 2x terminators with soulreaper cannons and kopesh and hellfyre missiles

- 2x terminator w inferno combi bolters and kopesh

- 5x terminator w inferno combi bolters and kopesh





+TRANSPORT1+

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]



+TRANSPORT2+

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]

2000 total PTS

Basically 50 rubrics and 10 SOT. Interestingly it only has two characters. Curious about what it had to play against and what the terrain was like. Very much a raw power/efficiency list.  Edited September 21, 2021 by Mushkilla

[BoomWolf]

Paradigm of change and immaterial echo on an exalted packing buffs?

 

Bolter rubrics with temporal surge spam? And surge on the termies too?

 

Honestly this list confuses me.

 

What secondaries this even goes for?

[Mushkilla]

What secondaries this even goes for?

 

My guess would be: Raise Banners, Strangle Hold, and Mutate Landscape. With that many obsec bodies you are going to smash your opponent on the primary anyway. 

 

Temporal Surge means you can boost rubrics onto your opponents objectives, they will be using pact from beyond to guarantee it goes off. 

 

You can probably win the primary before your opponent can clear out enough of your bodies.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Mushkilla

[Prot]

Paradigm of change and immaterial echo on an exalted packing buffs?

 

Bolter rubrics with temporal surge spam? And surge on the termies too?

 

Honestly this list confuses me.

 

What secondaries this even goes for?

 

 

Not to be facetious but this is the sort of list I fear we will see most of. 

 

It's just taken all that's good, and spammed it. The list over all is good at owning real estate, and it repeats the best power so often so that 1) it can make that double move when/where most needed, and 2) it's going to smite the crap out of most other stuff.

 

I could be wrong, but I feel right now like this is the best of the codex. I think of how many games I've had already experimenting with units I don't see other people touch.... most of them just aren't good enough to play at a GT or better.

 

There's a lot of 'fun' stuff in the codex, but this list just milks the core and survivability while retaining ObSec board control.

 

It is definitely interesting to think of the tables. This is a very weird issue with 9th edition where the number one conversation around a winning list is; what was the terrain like.

[The Yncarne]

I believe spamming troops should never be an issue. I think the list above uses what GW is selling: terminators and rubrics. Additionally, a list of spam makes it easier to manage the complex options this codex leads to. I rage quit this weekend because there’s so much to micromanage.

 

On the other hand, such a list can be boring to play and play against. I think the social aspect is the deterrent and that isn’t a concern in a competitive environment.

[Are Verlo]

This list won the The Normal Blokes GT 2021.

 

1 detatchment

 

- battallion

 

- cult of time

 

- power for all models (bar ahriman = time flux)

 

--------------------------

 

 

 

+ HQ1+

 

Ahriman [10 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 180pts]:

 

- Powers: tzeentchs firestorm, doombolt, gaze of hate

 

- Disc of Tzeentch

 

 

 

+HQ2+

 

Exalted Sorcerer [7 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 115pts]:

 

- Powers: Glamour of Tzeentch, Weaver of Fates

 

- WARLORD: Trait= Immaterial Echo.

 

- Legion command: Paradigm of Change

 

- Relic: Umbralefic Crystal

 

 

 

+TROOP1+

 

10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts]

 

- Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.

 

- power: temporal surge

 

- 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun

 

- Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

 

 

 

+TROOP2+

 

10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts]

 

- Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.

 

- power: temporal surge

 

- 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun

 

- Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

 

 

 

+TROOP3+

 

10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts]

 

- Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.

 

- power: temporal surge

 

- 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun

 

- Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

 

 

 

+TROOP4+

 

10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts]

 

- Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.

 

- power: temporal surge

 

- 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun

 

- Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

 

 

 

+TROOP5+

 

10 Rubric Marines [12 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 220pts]

 

- Aspiring Sorcerer: Inferno Bolt Pistol.

 

- power: temporal surge

 

- 8x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun

 

- Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

 

 

 

+ELITE1+

 

10 Scarab Occult Terminators [21 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 445pts]:

 

- aspiring sorcerer: inferno combi bolter, force staff. Power = temporal surge

 

- legion command: rites of coalescence

 

- 2x terminators with soulreaper cannons and kopesh and hellfyre missiles

 

- 2x terminator w inferno combi bolters and kopesh

 

- 5x terminator w inferno combi bolters and kopesh

 

 

 

 

 

+TRANSPORT1+

 

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]

 

 

 

+TRANSPORT2+

 

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]

 

2000 total PTS

 

Basically 50 rubrics and 10 SOT. Interestingly it only has two characters. Curious about what it had to play against and what the terrain was like. Very much a raw power/efficiency list. 

 

 

That list shares a lot of things in common with "my list", so I can point out some pointers as to how it might play. 

Disclamer: I have not talked to Liam, heard him explain in a podcast or read a battle rep. What I share is just some of the similarities to the list I play.

 

The list has enough smites from the rubrics and the SoTs to make the warp-charge 9+, so most often you can use the "pact from beyond" to make the SoTs cast smite at 9+ and restore a model. The exalted with the ecco warlord trat can most often make sure you cast the time spell undeniable to restore a second body if needed.

 

As for objective play vs opponents not familiar with the selfless automatons strat, you can get a lot of ground covered by the strat. If you have a rhino with rubrics and perhaps Ahriman on an objective. Dark lances pop open the transport and the DE player sends in the wyches. Not to wipe out the rubrics, but to flip the objective.  If he/she aslo charges Ahriman then a well placed automatons start might be all you need to pull the 10 SotS onto the objective keeping it under your control and giving you lots of free movement for the SoTs.

 

I guess the list does select rise the banners only now and then, because you really need all the manifests. If the mission lets you rise 3 banners turn 1 vs an opponent out of range, then banners might be worth it. Once the going gets tough, I dont think you can afford to use a character or a 10 man unit to to an action. 

 

Stranglehold on the other hand is great, mutate landscape can be done and grind them down is attractive with the size and durability of the units in that list.

 

"My list" runs 40 rubrics (2x 10 with reaper and icon, 1 x 10 wirh bolters and 1x10 with 9 flamers), 10 SoTs with rites and 2 reapers/racks, Ahriman on disc, exalted [warlord] on foot, 2 rhinoes and a helbrute with MM/fist with combi- bolters.

 

I guess Liams list plays to the strenght of the build better than mine- I am limited to 40 rubrics because that is the number I own and have painted. If I only had more rubrics the helbrute would be replaced with a  5 man squad and I´d put a reaper and icon on the "naked" 10 man rubric unit.

 

For those interested I´m taking my list to a tournament in November. Part of what makes a "dustbunny-list" so great is that It´s easy to transport. The army is compact and fits well in the hand luggade when boarding the plane.

[Ahzek451]

Ugh, it took me more than a month to do one rubric squad...lol

[Xenith]

Looks like a fun list, fluffy also, ranks of Rubricae shielding their sorcerous masters. It'd absolutely swamp the field. I'd have been tempted to drop one 10 man unit to 5 and take another Exalted, then make a Duplicity detachment of the exalted and one rubric unit, then you have both teleport spell and temporal surge to get where you need to be. 

 

Only have 3 9 man units of rubes so can't quite make this list yet, but can add in a hellbrute or something. 

[Mushkilla]

Running 40+ rubrics with temporal surge is good. Who knew? 

 

Wait til people start using warpflamers. 

 

A big part of the list is the movement shenanigans that can be done with temporal surge, disembarking from rhinos and time flux. Combined with playing the primary mission very aggressively. 

 

What's really interesting is using 'fast' obsec to mess with your opponents ability to play the primary. Conceptually this is something I haven't needed to explore in my own games despite running 40+ rubrics.

 

It's also something you can't do with Sorcerous Facade (due to needing to be 9" away). This is encouraging me to explore the cult of prophecy as it can be used to guarantee advance/charge rolls to get event more of this primary objective grabbing momentum. 

 

Cults aside I think I'm going to switch things up with my rubric list and play less defensive/reactive (To the Last) and instead go for a much more aggressive playing the primaries approach (with aggressive secondaries). Mutating landscape and stranglehold go hand in hand with contesting your opponents objectives. I think mass flamer rubrics will probably lean into this play style quite well. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Mushkilla

[Xenith]

Played with this last night:

 

+++ Thousand Sons 9th (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [79 PL, 7CP, 16 Cabal Points, 1,499pts] +++

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [62 PL, 10CP, 11 Cabal Points, 1,165pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Cults of the Legion: Cult of Prophecy

Detachment Command Cost

+ Stratagems +

Sorcerous Arcana [-2CP]: 2x Additional Relics

+ No Force Org Slot +

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [7 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 120pts]: 11. Gaze of Hate, 11. Tzeentch's Firestorm, Battle-psyker, Force axe, Inferno combi-melta

+ HQ +

Exalted Sorcerer [8 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 150pts]: 13. Doombolt, 22. Swelled by the Warp, Disc of Tzeentch, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Rehati, The Stave Abominus

Exalted Sorcerer [8 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 135pts]: 12. Glamour of Tzeentch, 22. Weaver of Fates, Dilettante, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Oraculae Brazier, Warlord

+ Troops +

Rubric Marines [6 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 105pts]
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: 33. Desecration of Worlds, Inferno Bolt Pistol
. . 4x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

Rubric Marines [6 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 105pts]
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: 31. Empyric Guidance, Inferno Bolt Pistol
. . 4x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

Thousand Sons Cultists [2 PL, 50pts]
. . Cultist Champion: Autogun
. . 9x Cultist w/ autogun: 9x Autogun

+ Elites +

Helbrute [7 PL, 120pts]: Helbrute fist, Multi-melta

Scarab Occult Terminators [11 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 230pts]: Hellfyre missile rack
. . Scarab Occult Sorcerer: 12. Twist of Fate, Inferno combi-bolter, Rites of Coalescence
. . 3x Terminator: 3x Inferno combi-bolter, 3x Prosperine khopesh
. . Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Soulreaper cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Maulerfiend [7 PL, 150pts]: Lasher tendrils

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [17 PL, -3CP, 5 Cabal Points, 334pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Cults of the Legion: Cult of Duplicity

Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]

+ HQ +

Infernal Master [5 PL, -1CP, 3 Cabal Points, 90pts]: 2. Seeker After Shadows, 23. Temporal Surge, 5. Glimpse of Eternity, 6. Malefic Maelstrom, Helm of the Daemon's Eye, High Acolytes

+ Troops +

Rubric Marines [6 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 115pts]
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: 11. Tzeentch's Firestorm, Inferno Bolt Pistol
. . 3x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 3x Inferno boltgun
. . Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

Rubric Marines [6 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 129pts]
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: 23. Temporal Surge, Inferno Bolt Pistol
. . 4x Rubric Marine w/ warpflamer: 4x Warpflamer

Created with BattleScribe

 

Against Death guard:

 

DP on foot, sword

5/6 Blightlords, 1 cplas, 1 blight launcher

3 Deathshroud

20 poxwalkers

7Plague Marines

2 Blight drones

2 PBC's

 

Secondaries

Mine - Wrath of Magnus, Engage, Raise banners (still on 2020 pack)

Opponent - Spread the sickness, Engage, Grind them down. 

 

 

I took prophecy and glimose of eternity to attempt shenanigans with getting free reroll and fixed dice, etc. Brazier went onto the dread pretty much every turn, ideal for a unit like that. The Prophecy standard spell (divine the future) was ok, would have been amazing if I rolled better - I think I got 1,2,2,5,5. I cast it early in the turn with my buffing exalted, then used the 5's to guarantee a super smite if anyone rolled a natural 6 on a smite. 

 

My shooting, aside from the flamers, was vastly underwhelming, and pretty much all the damage was done through mortals. 

 

Turn 1, the infernal master facaded the flamer unit to 9" away from the poxies, flamer unit then surged themselves, and got to 3" away, flamed most of them then charged in, with a big charge over some containers to contest their home objective, charging and killing some more that got resurrected with the strat. Finally killed them all in T3 and hel their objective.

 

My rubes did great in holding my own objectives all game, scarabs got mauled early by plaguebursts and never achieved much, deathshroud teleported in and assaulted my infernal master, killing him. They were then psychiced from existence by everything in my army. First was a super smite for 6 mortals killing 2, then 4 other units variously failed smite or did 1 mortal leaving the last guy on 1W to be axed by my TDA Sorc. 

 

PBC's were monstrous, the entropy cannons with D3+3 D murdered SOT's and my maulerfiend, and the mortars have a strat for flat 3 damage, and splash mortals onto anything within 3" - My dudes were clumped together T1 and I got got. 

 

Thoughts:

 

The prophecy dice roll is decent, however it can only effect a prophecy unit meaning a large part of the army has to be that cult - I dont think it's that great over the army - duplicity or time is better. If It could affect any THOUSAND SONS unit, then I'd probably consider taking a Prophecy detachment every game, as fishing for super smites was fun and powerful. 

 

Helm of the daemons eye did it's job this time and netted me CP back until the master died. Would use again. 

 

Glamour/Weaver didnt do much this game. You put them on one unit and the opponent shoots another. Maybe if I had 10 SOT's, or I had got first turn. I might try a game with only damage dealing stuff. 

 

Maybe 4 Character casters is one too many at 1500, I think I could have done with another unit of rubrics somewhere.

 

Mauler did little again, same with the Hellbrute - will try swapping the mauler for something with more ranged ability, which is what I was really lacking.

[Mushkilla]

Had another game against sisters.

My list:

HQS
Ahriman, disk - 180
Powers: Glamour of Tzeentch, Weaver of Fates, Temporal Surge

Exalted Sorcerer, disk, Dilettante, - 165
Relic: Prism of Echoes and Athenaean Scroll
WT: Master Manipulator
Powers: Temporal Surge, Temporal Manipulation

Exalted Sorcerer, disk, Paradigm of Change, kopesh, warpflamepistol - 150
Relic: Chronos tutorium
WT: Aetherstride
Powers: Doombolt, Dark Blessing

Sorcerer - 90
Powers: Firestorm, Swelled by the Warp

Sorcerer - 90
Powers: Cacodaemonic Curse, Pyric Flux

ELITE
5 scarabs, soulreaper, rite of coalescence - 220
Powers: Presage
5 scarabs, soulreaper - 205
Powers: Presage

TROOPS
5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, icon - 139
Powers: Doombolt
5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, icon - 139
Powers: Doombolt
5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, icon - 139
Powers: Doombolt
5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, icon - 139
Powers: Doombolt
5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, icon - 139
Powers: Doombolt
5 rubrics, aspiring sorcerer, 4 warpflamer, icon - 139
Powers: Doombolt

FAST ATTACK
Spawn - 23
Spawn - 23
Spawn - 23

Points: 1998
Command Points: 10
Cabbal Points: 27

Don't have time to do a full report. It wasn't a particularly close game and the sons were victorious.

Highlights:

I used the chronos tutorium to take Arrogance of aeons. I moved the Paradigm of Change sorcerer forward 15" then buffed him with swelled by the warp and glamour (the buffing sorcerers were out of deny range). I then used the prism/scroll sorcerer and the range ritual to cast temporal surge at 18" on the paradigm sorcerer moving another 15" so that he was next to the Demagogue I then cast an undeniably malevolent doombolt killing the Demagogue (double ritual is nice on a single unit is strong). The Demagogue got back up at the end of the psychic phase I couldn't shoot her because of the bodyguard rule but managed to charge and kill her in the fight phase and then consolidated into some retributors (to shut down their shooting).

This basically won me the game as removing the Demagogue meant the sisters couldn't make celestine immune to psychic powers. The sisters also had to divert a chunk of resources to take out the exalted.

I'm absolutely infatuated with these exalted assassin builds. The nice thing with Chronos tutorium is you can swap between Arrogance of aeons and Undying Form depending on the match up. I am tempted to try thrydderghyre though (for more mobility). There's so many match-ups where killing a key character can swing the game. Shadow Seer with reduce range, backfield doom farseer, Demagogue, etc. Sure 99% of the time you lose the sorcerer and your opponent can screen out charges/prevent you from placing the sorcerer next to the target. But it's such a good threat.

I'm actually considering adding a few doombolt kamikaze Shamans. They can still move 24 + d6 with an advance and cast doombolt and malific scroll smite (witn great sorcerer).

The prism/scroll temporal surge exalted is fantastic as he lets you cast temporal surge reliably out of deny range. He makes all these combos possible. Edited September 24, 2021 by Mushkilla

[Prot]

@ Xenith: Thanks for the write up. I have a heck of a time with Death Guard. Honestly it's why I started thinking of Orrery. However, it hardly has an effect because it only works on Core, and we have so little multidamage options on Core. This is why I use so many MM Brutes.

 

I find the PBC's to be just gross against us. Especially if we blob up at all, and the boom you get hit with the mega shot that I think is flat 3 damage AND does a splash damage mortal wound. Trust me, it's moments like that when you hate having a 10 man SoT. It's a really, really tough match up. And getting close means being T3.... ouch. I have had this match up so many times, and as I have shown, if he casts cloud of flies, and throws a ton of poxwalkers at me in front of his Blightlords, it buys him time and it's an incredible slog fest after that.

 

One question:

 

Turn 1, the infernal master facaded the flamer unit to 9" away from the poxies, flamer unit then surged themselves, and got to 3" away, flamed most of them then charged in, with a big charge over some containers to contest their home objective, charging and killing some more that got resurrected with the strat. Finally killed them all in T3 and hel their objective.

 

 

So is this for sure legit? Can we "Surge" after a deepstrike? As we've discussed I play conservative on the on these kinds of combo's just to be safe. I have been treating it just like Warp Time used to work (IE: No warptime or extra movement after deepstrike).

 

Anyway, thanks for the quick write up. Good insight on Prophecy which I suspected, but haven't tried. (You can't beat actual playtest experience with this stuff.)

Edited September 23, 2021 by WarriorFish
Quote colour fixed

[Mushkilla]

So is this for sure legit? Can we "Surge" after a deepstrike? As we've discussed I play conservative on the on these kinds of combo's just to be safe. I have been treating it just like Warp Time used to work (IE: No warptime or extra movement after deepstrike).

 

Anyway, thanks for the quick write up. Good insight on Prophecy which I suspected, but haven't tried. (You can't beat actual playtest experience with this stuff.)

 

Unfortunately, you can't Temporal Surge a unit that has been redeployed with Sorcerous Facade.

 

See Rare Rules:

 

REPOSITIONED AND REPLACEMENT UNITS

Some rules enable units to teleport or else be repositioned and set back up on the battlefield. Other rules enable units to removed from the battlefield and be replaced by a new, full-strength unit, which is then set up on the battlefield. If a rule causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following rules apply to it:

1. Rules that are triggered by or apply to units that are ‘set up on the battlefield as Reinforcements’ are also triggered by and apply to that unit when it is set up on the battlefield.

2. Models in units that arrived as Reinforcements count as having moved a distance in inches equal to their Move characteristic this Movement phase. If the unit has a minimum Move characteristic, it counts as having moved its maximum Move characteristic.

 

3. The unit cannot make a Normal Move, Advance, Fall Back or Remain Stationary that turn for any reason.

 

...

[Prot]

@Mushkilla-

 

Thanks for the brief writeup. I personally tried the 'assasin Shaman' and I just felt like the Exalted's have a better run with it, and I turned the 70 points into more Rubrics which just seemed (to me) a better use of the points. I tried this again last game and without the Shaman and think it's the better choice for me...

 

 

I then used the prism/scroll sorcerer and the range ritual to cast temporal surge at 18 on the paradigm sorcerer another 15 so that he was next to the Demagogue I then cast an undeniably malevolent doombolt killing the Demagogue. The Demagogue got back up at the end of the psychic phase I couldn't shoot her because of the bodyguard rule but managed to charge and kill her in the fight phase and then consolidated into so retributors (to shut down their shooting).

 

 

This is interesting. Basically I listened to a podcast where the guy who went 4-1 with his Thousand Sons at the 49 person GT. His 1 loss was against a Thousand Sons player who had the double move assassin Sorc, zap his Ahriman! This instantly put him in the hole as Ahriman accounted for buffs, and I believe was one third of his "to the last" points.

 

What I've been trying to figure out is if Thrydderghyre is worth it for that play. 

 

Also in your example above.... I rarely get away with it, as my SoB group player is always retreating, playing the strat to shoot normal, then blowing me away. I almost never try that trick anymore unless I can tri-point him. (is your opponent unaware of this strat? Or am I missing something?)

 

 

This basically won me the game as removing the Demagogue meant the sisters couldn't make celestine immune to psychic powers. The sisters also had to divert a chunk of resources to take out the exalted.

 

 

So I can't remember what Demagogue's ability is, but when I play against SoB, it's that hot run of 5+ denials that drive me nuts. Plus if I cast something truly obnoxious and can't make it undeniable, he usually tries again with the Strat making it a 5+ attempt, followed up by a 4+ attempt. It's so... anti-Thousand Sons (the build) it's incredibly annoying.

 

I'm absolutely infatuated with these exalted assassin build. The nice thing with Chronos tutorium is you can swap between Arrogance of aeons and Undying Form depending on the match up. 

 

 

I'm kind of on the fence about this myself. I've played it with this angle a few times, but wow... unless your opponent is extremely aware, it really ticks people off. lol

 

I've kind of got to a point where I coach the other guys in our group.... and I state, I'm going to try to snipe your characters, but mostly it's to practice for tournament play. I have mixed feelings about it. In defense of it, it does require a heck of a lot of resources and it can easily turn into a bit of a gamble that can go against us.

 

Thanks again for the write up.

Edited September 23, 2021 by WarriorFish
Font colours fixed