What to expect from 9e CSM

[Khornestar]

I need to see the whole box contents before saying I love them, but these appear to be the “take no risks” version of chosen, if that makes sense. To be up front, to me this still means they’re awesome and look great, but I too am concerned about included kit.

 

Some thoughts on what’s in the kit:

 

We saw 2 (iirc) axes in the teaser video, at least one surely had a bladed head and not chainaxe teeth. I think we can safely make the link between illustrations being nearly identical representations of some version of the models these days, i.e. there should be at least one power axe in the kit.

 

WHC article says powerfists, so maybe we can say 2 of those somewhat confidently?

 

There is an illustration from the video where a chosen is firing what appears to be a combi-flamer, so maybe one of those, too.

 

A little breakdown, past the first list below I’m just speculating but seems reasonable.

 

Seen/known:

 

1x plasma pistol

1x bolt pistol

2x lightning claws

1x boltgun

1x combi-plasma

1x Power maul

1x Chainaxe

1x Power sword

 

Likely:

 

1x power axe

1x Combi-flamer

2x powerfists

 

Possible:

 

More of any of the above

Thunder hammer from rumor engine

 

 

And this is to say nothing of rules, which are always neat when connected to wargear represented on the model but of course don’t need to rely on it. For example, chosen could have “warp-infused” armor that gives a +1 to armor saves and an invulnerable save, or “balefire rounds” to give bolters/autocannons/chainguns a strength or AP modifier.

 

The black Templars relic and vow system is a very cool example of them actually doing this sort of thing, but doesn’t fix bland/impotent unit entries. It’s cool that primaris sword brethren can get a 5++, but their dataslate is not particularly impressive.

 

In the end I think a copy and paste with +1 wound is what we’re getting, for better or worse.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Khornestar

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 

I'm really liking the Chosen. I think they made them look just enough up from the standard CSM, with just a little bit more detail and mutation to them. I was kind of hoping they would do more MK III/MK IV for their armor to look more like they're from the Heresy, but that's just not where they want to take the CSM range, so I understand why they didn't.

Which is why I personally am not a fan of the current crop of new CSM kits, no unified armoured mk's. I like certain individual sculpts/parts not the entire kits. In this case, lighting claw chosen guy. Here is hoping EC is based on mk IV and WE on mk V.

 

I think that's something we just have to live with while the models need to accommodate Renegades. I don't quite see a way around that unless they make bespoke models for both the traitor legions and renegades.

 

That's why I preferred they leaned more into MK III/IV, but I understand why they didn't.

 

 

Mark III and IV are Great Crusade pre-heresy armours. Forge World Horus Heresy armies are based around the first year of the war and aren't really representative of Heresy armours. These guys and the regular Chaos marines look more like proper Heresy models than anything FW has released.

 

You can't pick up unified Mark VII armour in a loyalist kit either so ironically that's really a Siege of Terror or Scouring era look not a 41st millenium one. Mark V isn't a unified mark by definition. We already got an entire Mark III range with DG who skipped most of the heresy due to being lost in the warp.

 

They stuck close to TS in Mark IV and DG in Mark III so Mark V World Eaters should be a given, but that would make them the first real Mark V figures outside of that one early FW resin run and the Armour through the Ages figure so there's a lot of room for re-imagining what a whole unit of Mark V would actually look like.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I have no problem with what they're doing, just after seeing Maloghurst with his trim, a Chosen in MK III like that with some chaotic trim would have been spicy.

 

I would assume WE will be in MK V, just as EC might be in some MK VI variant when they come out, given one of the more recent White Dwarfs

[techsoldaten]

The Chosen models, for me, are a "let's see the sprues" and possibly "let's see the rules" purchase. Don't want to be buying multiple boxes to create the unit I really want.

 

In other news, has anyone seen the Blood Brothers rules for GSC?

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/01/04/turn-the-imperiums-weapons-against-it-with-new-brood-brothers-rules/

 

A GSC army is able to take a detachment of AM up to 25% of the total points cost and still count as battleforged.

 

Wondering if this could be how GW plans to incorporate Renegade Guard into CSM factions. Guardsmen would certainly be a step up from Cultists in the cheap chaff arena, but allowing them to also bring tanks would make Chaos armored columns possible.

 

One possible downside: I really loved R&H armies and it's been a while since I could play them. If GW were to go this route and not issue rules for standalone R&H, seems that would preclude their return.

[Naryn]

Could also be a way for them to integrate Daemons with CSM armies if they're interested in going that direction.

[Verbal Underbelly]

I've been saving melta guns for some Emperors Children chosen. I sincerely hope they retain their previous options - I do like the new models as they stand apart from the 'normal' CSM. Don't love the bare heads but apart from that they're okay by me.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

 

I'm really liking the Chosen. I think they made them look just enough up from the standard CSM, with just a little bit more detail and mutation to them. I was kind of hoping they would do more MK III/MK IV for their armor to look more like they're from the Heresy, but that's just not where they want to take the CSM range, so I understand why they didn't.

Which is why I personally am not a fan of the current crop of new CSM kits, no unified armoured mk's. I like certain individual sculpts/parts not the entire kits. In this case, lighting claw chosen guy. Here is hoping EC is based on mk IV and WE on mk V.

 

I think that's something we just have to live with while the models need to accommodate Renegades. I don't quite see a way around that unless they make bespoke models for both the traitor legions and renegades.

 

That's why I preferred they leaned more into MK III/IV, but I understand why they didn't.

 

 

Mark III and IV are Great Crusade pre-heresy armours. Forge World Horus Heresy armies are based around the first year of the war and aren't really representative of Heresy armours. These guys and the regular Chaos marines look more like proper Heresy models than anything FW has released.

 

You can't pick up unified Mark VII armour in a loyalist kit either so ironically that's really a Siege of Terror or Scouring era look not a 41st millenium one. Mark V isn't a unified mark by definition. We already got an entire Mark III range with DG who skipped most of the heresy due to being lost in the warp.

 

They stuck close to TS in Mark IV and DG in Mark III so Mark V World Eaters should be a given, but that would make them the first real Mark V figures outside of that one early FW resin run and the Armour through the Ages figure so there's a lot of room for re-imagining what a whole unit of Mark V would actually look like.

 

 

Looking closer, the new kits have mk IV helms and some arms/gauntlets, everything else is mk VII or mk VI. I still don't like most of the new models. I will hold strong for new plastic HH mini's to use instead and chaosify those for 40k. 

[techsoldaten]

 

 

Mark III and IV are Great Crusade pre-heresy armours. Forge World Horus Heresy armies are based around the first year of the war and aren't really representative of Heresy armours. These guys and the regular Chaos marines look more like proper Heresy models than anything FW has released.

 

You can't pick up unified Mark VII armour in a loyalist kit either so ironically that's really a Siege of Terror or Scouring era look not a 41st millenium one. Mark V isn't a unified mark by definition. We already got an entire Mark III range with DG who skipped most of the heresy due to being lost in the warp.

 

They stuck close to TS in Mark IV and DG in Mark III so Mark V World Eaters should be a given, but that would make them the first real Mark V figures outside of that one early FW resin run and the Armour through the Ages figure so there's a lot of room for re-imagining what a whole unit of Mark V would actually look like.

 

Looking closer, the new kits have mk IV helms and some arms/gauntlets, everything else is mk VII or mk VI. I still don't like most of the new models. I will hold strong for new plastic HH mini's to use instead and chaosify those for 40k. 

 

Mk III has always been my favorite, having a full army of them would be cool.

 

How does the scale of HH plastics compare to the new CSM sculpts? The models are not out yet, so I guess there are no precise answers.

 

FW models have about the same proportions as old CSM, in the width of the torso and the size of the legs. They stand slightly smaller than current CSM.

 

Do we expect GW to upscale them to the current proportions? If so, I might follow your lead, at least with a couple squads.

[MegaVolt87]

As far as I can tell, recent GW HH releases have been increasing in scale. I think its a safe bet new HH plastic infantry will match the new CSM scale.

[Plaguecaster]

They nuked the daemonkin after releasing it as a blatant cashgrab to sell more greater daemon models but id love for actual mixed daemon support in the chaos marine armies like AOS without losing all your army rules like how it currently does with death guard. I dont want useless cultist or other non marine mortals / undead (in the case of poxwalkers) let me mix daemons in alongside my marines like the good old days and without having to use summoning to include them without losing all rules that I only get if i only have csm models. let us have something like the brood brother rules of 25% or like the AOS collation rules where you can take 1 other chaos army unit for every 4 main chaos army you are running and not make you lose all rules simply for including a couple units that actually make sense to be fielded alongside csms.

 

otherwise Chaos so disappointment is what I usually expect when they are involved

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Looking closer, the new kits have mk IV helms and some arms/gauntlets, everything else is mk VII or mk VI. I still don't like most of the new models. I will hold strong for new plastic HH mini's to use instead and chaosify those for 40k. 

 

 

There are loads of Mark V torsos in the basic Chaos marines and one Mark IV one, even a few Mark V legs and pads (with the rounded bonding studds replaced by spiked ones) and since Mark V isn't a unified mark to start with that's basically the same as them all being Mark V. The chosen seem to be Mark VII except for one Mark VI chest but one of the chests is hidden. Havoks aren't any Mark but are kind of to Mark V what Mark III is to II. Raptors are a mix of Mark V and Mark IV.

 

Mark VII and VI are Heresy era armours as much as Marks 2-4 are. The new rescaled HH models are Mark VI so you're waisting your time if you want rescaled Great Crusade era armour.

 

If you want 40k Chaos Mark IV its probably easier to de-Tzeentch the Rubric marines.

 

Mk III has always been my favorite, having a full army of them would be cool.

 

How does the scale of HH plastics compare to the new CSM sculpts? The models are not out yet, so I guess there are no precise answers.

 

FW models have about the same proportions as old CSM, in the width of the torso and the size of the legs. They stand slightly smaller than current CSM.

 

Do we expect GW to upscale them to the current proportions? If so, I might follow your lead, at least with a couple squads.

 

 

The old Plastic Mark IV and Mark III are the same height as the old CSM but I guess you know that? As far as we know its just going to be New taller Mark VI.

 

I have a full army of Mark III in plastic its called the New Death Guard. There was a guy on this forum who Iron Warrior-ised them.

 

 

They nuked the daemonkin after releasing it as a blatant cashgrab to sell more greater daemon models but id love for actual mixed daemon support in the chaos marine armies like AOS without losing all your army rules like how it currently does with death guard. I dont want useless cultist or other non marine mortals / undead (in the case of poxwalkers) let me mix daemons in alongside my marines like the good old days and without having to use summoning to include them without losing all rules that I only get if i only have csm models.

 

I'd also like to see a 25% rule but let's be honest, you had to use Summoning Rules to include Daemons with CSM in 2nd, 3rd and 4th ed as well. In 4th-5th ed you had to use a Summoning rule to even deploy your army if you were playing with the Actual Codex Chaos Daemons. In old Warhammer Fantasy you had to use some weird allies rules to include Daemons and Mortals together so outside of Khorne only in 7th those Age of Sigmar God specific books are actually the first place such an army has ever existed as a Games Workshop product.

 

AoS and Khorne Daemon also massively encouraged summoning so I'm not sure how you can claim to like those rules and hate summoning. Its just that their summoning rules are better.

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[techsoldaten]

 

They nuked the daemonkin after releasing it as a blatant cashgrab to sell more greater daemon models but id love for actual mixed daemon support in the chaos marine armies like AOS without losing all your army rules like how it currently does with death guard. I dont want useless cultist or other non marine mortals / undead (in the case of poxwalkers) let me mix daemons in alongside my marines like the good old days and without having to use summoning to include them without losing all rules that I only get if i only have csm models.

 

I'd also like to see a 25% rule but let's be honest, you had to use Summoning Rules to include Daemons with CSM in 2nd, 3rd and 4th ed as well. In 4th-5th ed you had to use a Summoning rule to even deploy your army if you were playing with the Actual Codex Chaos Daemons. In old Warhammer Fantasy you had to use some weird allies rules to include Daemons and Mortals together so outside of Khorne only in 7th those Age of Sigmar God specific books are actually the first place such an army has ever existed as a Games Workshop product.

 

AoS and Khorne Daemon also massively encouraged summoning so I'm not sure how you can claim to like those rules and hate summoning. Its just that their summoning rules are better.

 

Well, you have to admit - as it stands now, Summoning is a bit janky compared to other editions.

 

While sacrificing movement is better than sacrificing a model (as in 2nd edition), Summoning is unpredictable and carries penalties. Some of the Daemons you might want to bring on the board greatly benefit from auras and rules specific to their detachment that you don't get when they arrive by Summoning. There's also the whole mechanic for dice rolls, points and power levels. It's hard to set aside points before the game and not know what you're going to get once the game is started.

 

Sacrificing Battleforged in order to run a Daemon detachment alongside CSM could be a steep price to pay. I'd be more of a fan of Summoning if there was less uncertainty associated with it - maybe a simple dice roll to determine if it worked, then choose from the pool of points without involving power levels. Also, if there was more synergy between the armies based on marks. 

[Plaguecaster]

@closetskeleton have you looked into how summoning is dealt with in AOS now? It's no longer something that you build your army around or have the chance of not even being able to summon them if you fail your summoning rolls or characters who can summon die. Instead it's more of a gimmick that works off acts you do in game with slaanesh for unsaved wounds dealt to a unit deal with one point per unit or nurgle for claiming terroity without any enemies around able to summon when you get enough points with most units cost quite alot to even try summoning and only one max per turn. Instead what I love about Aos is God allowed mortal armies get their army rules and can still have Daemon to support them being part of the same army and not needing to set points aside to try and summon something you can quite possibly fail to even summon losing all those points Edited January 11, 2022 by Plaguecaster

[Cheex]

We're starting to see a bunch of 9th edition codexes with rules allowing the mixing of specific factions while not breaking army rules. AdMech can have a Questor Mechanicus SHA detachment while not losing Doctrinas and Canticles; GSC can have Brood Brother Guard detachments; rumours say that Aeldari will be able to do ally shenanigans with Ynnari.

 

The big rumour dump (which has so far been pretty much spot on) said that we'd be seeing an expanded range of Chaos Cultist models, including big mutants/possessed and HQ models. We also see "Chaos Cultists" get mentioned specifically on the back of the upcoming War Zone: Nachmund Gauntlet book, as if they were their own faction.

 

This makes me wonder: maybe Cultists will be split into their own Faction Keyword, while still being contained within the CSM Codex. They could then have some allowance to be included in a CSM army (likely as another detachment, judging by how many "mortal" units we are rumoured to be getting) while not breaking whatever army-wide rules we get.

 

Hopefully Daemons will get some kind of similar rule, too. Let's bring back the Hordes of Chaos-style lists!

Edited January 10, 2022 by Cheex

[Hathor42]

I hope there's not to much emphasis on none chaos marines as I would like the focus of my chaos marine book to be on chaos marines.

[WrathOfTheLion]

It would be very handy if they shoved an extra half sprue with some more weapon options into the existing terminator kit, like they did for Cadians recently. I really think they need to address that kit and it wouldn't take that much to do it.

[Plaguecaster]

So looking at that Vigilus article from the 6th with that artwork they revealed of black legion vs ultras there's this weird looking thing, is it a weird looking defiler/ forgefiend or could there be a new daemon engines coming as well?

Edited January 15, 2022 by Plaguecaster

[MegaVolt87]

Its quite large, a new undivided LoW daemon engine maybe ? 

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't know, but it looks cool. Could just be artistic license drawing something cool, could see it being a Defiler redesign or could be something new.

[MegaVolt87]

Speaking of art- who is still waiting + hoping on that demon hammer terminator lord? 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

That art was indeed awesome. I'd love e to get that model even if I'm not too keen on hammers on HQs anymore.

[tinpact]

I'd love an updated Defiler - as classic as the current one is, you could paint it lime green and it'd fit right in with the Constructicons.

[Excessus]

Hmm, interesting.

 

I am reminded of how the Venomcrawler was revealed in the background of boxart.

[Marshal Loss]

Good eye! The art itself isn't new of course (that's the 9th ed SM codex cover) and plates seem to oscillate between accurate and interpretative depictions, but fingers crossed. Won't get my hopes up though given the leak's accuracy so far but an omission is certainly possible.

[Akylas]

Wouldn't complain about a new defiler as I have a soft spot for them.  I haven't been this excited about a 40k release in a while but if even half of the rumors are true this is looking to be a great one.