Review of WH+ It's current state and it's potential

[phandaal]

Whether someone likes GW batreps better than what is already out there is going to come down to preference. There are so many different kinds on YouTube right now.

 

Play On Tabletop is one of the more "professional" presentations with things like 40k in 40 Minutes, then you have people like Winters SEO with a "your buddy's garage" feel but still more edited, and others like Tabletop Tactics or Miniwargaming Studios with their own takes. Then there are tons of other smaller channels doing their own thing.

 

Personally, I enjoy the more laid-back reports along with Play On's stuff but do not enjoy multi-hour unedited battle reports.

 

One big thing is that there are only so many hours in the day. If someone already likes batreps elsewhere, W+ batreps have to be a whole lot better in their eyes to get them to switch.

[Emperor Ming]

Was looking forward to the tau battle rep but it was was only 1k

 

I wont be renewing unless a price drop or the content is scaled up

 

The miniature related reward needs to be changed as well, waiting 12 months..... 

 

If I could choose a miniature to a value of x and have it upfront if I subscribed for the year then that would be better But that's a pipe dream  

[Dark Shepherd]

Was looking forward to the tau battle rep but it was was only 1k

 

I wont be renewing unless a price drop or the content is scaled up

 

The miniature related reward needs to be changed as well, waiting 12 months.....

 

If I could choose a miniature to a value of x and have it upfront if I subscribed for the year then that would be better But that's a pipe dream

There is an added issue, especially if we believe them when they say W+ is aimed at hardcores, that theyre trying to show off all their wares

 

ARGUABLY* 2k matched is the norm or most wanted. But theyve everything from 1k to 2k and open, narrative, and matched

 

Again theres an issue of what they want tk sell and what we want to actually buy

 

*Not by any means saying that that is the only way to play or theres no interest in other ways

[Haywire]

Speaking for myself, while I like the idea of the battle reports in principle, I couldn't help but get the feeling that the Tau/Raven Guard one was basically just advertising, like they would be in the White Dwarf magazines around the time of a new army book.

 

The Tau victory was a foregone conclusion, and with the camera cuts and army choices... well, I couldn't help but feel like a lot of the dice rolls were fudged and that the Raven Guard force was set up to lose the match to make the Tau and their big guns look good. I can't claim to be up on what's wise to take and such, but yeah... It just felt like the game was set up to just be a Tau shooting gallery to shift more kits.

 

On the bright side of things, is it just me or is the animation quality of Hammer + Bolter improving?

[Dark Shepherd]

Speaking for myself, while I like the idea of the battle reports in principle, I couldn't help but get the feeling that the Tau/Raven Guard one was basically just advertising, like they would be in the White Dwarf magazines around the time of a new army book.

 

The Tau victory was a foregone conclusion, and with the camera cuts and army choices... well, I couldn't help but feel like a lot of the dice rolls were fudged and that the Raven Guard force was set up to lose the match to make the Tau and their big guns look good. I can't claim to be up on what's wise to take and such, but yeah... It just felt like the game was set up to just be a Tau shooting gallery to shift more kits.

 

On the bright side of things, is it just me or is the animation quality of Hammer + Bolter improving?

My paranoid view was the game was 1k so 2k of Tau didnt shoot the opposition off the board in one or two turns

[The Neverborn]

Speaking for myself, while I like the idea of the battle reports in principle, I couldn't help but get the feeling that the Tau/Raven Guard one was basically just advertising

I'd say that's pretty much a given that they would do that at some point.

 

If anything I'm amazed they took this that long to do it or were subtle enough to cover it up.

[Taliesin]

And...another week with no animation. Its really quite incredible how little they are offering, barely anything since the start of the year and we'll be 6 weeks in.

[ThePenitentOne]

Yeah, they need to pull this out of the fire soon.

 

They way I see it, bat reps, Lore Masters and painting classes are so easy to do that there should be one of each every week, and it shouldn't be newsworthy when these things go up- that's just a baseline expectation.

 

And in ADDITION to that, there should be something newsworthy every week- ideally an animation. Now I do recognize that animations are a lot of work, and that they take time. So maybe on weeks when you can't have an animation, you have a special Batrep that falls far outside the norm- their Narrative Angels of Death Game or their Red Gobbo Christmas battle are the types of thing I'm talking about here.

 

Huge apocalyptic battles or historical oddities. Batreps in an ongoing series- I'd really like to follow a Crusade campaign of about 4 players with bi-weekly up dates that focus not just on the battle but also the lore that develops as a result of playing the games- how do the units grow and change- not just as a selection from the list, but in story terms.

[tychobi]

Yeah, they need to pull this out of the fire soon.

 

They way I see it, bat reps, Lore Masters and painting classes are so easy to do that there should be one of each every week, and it shouldn't be newsworthy when these things go up- that's just a baseline expectation.

 

And in ADDITION to that, there should be something newsworthy every week- ideally an animation. Now I do recognize that animations are a lot of work, and that they take time. So maybe on weeks when you can't have an animation, you have a special Batrep that falls far outside the norm- their Narrative Angels of Death Game or their Red Gobbo Christmas battle are the types of thing I'm talking about here.

 

Huge apocalyptic battles or historical oddities. Batreps in an ongoing series- I'd really like to follow a Crusade campaign of about 4 players with bi-weekly up dates that focus not just on the battle but also the lore that develops as a result of playing the games- how do the units grow and change- not just as a selection from the list, but in story terms.

As a producer of battle reports I have to bring up the costs of such an operation.  Running a studio is very expensive and scaling to that proposed schedule would require multiple teams working in tandem to realize. To meet the standards they have set takes time.  Animation takes even longer. The young hungry animators they press-ganged are hopefully hungry no more and working to deadline rather than to perfect a vision.  The quality of a corporate project of this kind becomes massively expensive when you actually pay for the labor.  What seemed like easy money from the outside may have proved to be a money pit as the realities of production costs sink in.  If Warhammer+ needs to make money they need a long view plan and some serious further investment in their studio team.  If their goal was marketing the model seems weird. Either way Warhammer + comes across half hearted and awkwardly priced.  Not good enough to entice new folks and not enough releases to serve the superfan.  If the best thing about your video channel is the free swag something is amiss. 

[phandaal]

 

 If Warhammer+ needs to make money they need a long view plan and some serious further investment in their studio team.  If their goal was marketing the model seems weird. Either way Warhammer + comes across half hearted and awkwardly priced.  Not good enough to entice new folks and not enough releases to serve the superfan.  If the best thing about your video channel is the free swag something is amiss. 

 

Just want to comment on this part. During GW's last earning's call their CEO (I think) said something about Warhammer+ really being a "club" for their customers to join. My take on that is they are pivoting away from marketing W+ as a streaming service into something that people just subscribe to for the extras.

 

As for why they are pivoting the message, could be any number of reasons... but I assume it is not because Warhammer+ is doing great on streaming.

[tychobi]

 

 

 

If Warhammer+ needs to make money they need a long view plan and some serious further investment in their studio team. If their goal was marketing the model seems weird. Either way Warhammer + comes across half hearted and awkwardly priced. Not good enough to entice new folks and not enough releases to serve the superfan. If the best thing about your video channel is the free swag something is amiss.

Just want to comment on this part. During GW's last earning's call their CEO (I think) said something about Warhammer+ really being a "club" for their customers to join. My take on that is they are pivoting away from marketing W+ as a streaming service into something that people just subscribe to for the extras.

 

As for why they are pivoting the message, could be any number of reasons... but I assume it is not because Warhammer+ is doing great on streaming.

Club eh? Quite a turn from streaming service. Don't they already have a magazine sub that sends you models as well? I know CEOing is hard but squatting over your mess and calling it dinner would have me fuming as an investor.

[phandaal]

 

 

 

If Warhammer+ needs to make money they need a long view plan and some serious further investment in their studio team. If their goal was marketing the model seems weird. Either way Warhammer + comes across half hearted and awkwardly priced. Not good enough to entice new folks and not enough releases to serve the superfan. If the best thing about your video channel is the free swag something is amiss.

Just want to comment on this part. During GW's last earning's call their CEO (I think) said something about Warhammer+ really being a "club" for their customers to join. My take on that is they are pivoting away from marketing W+ as a streaming service into something that people just subscribe to for the extras.

 

As for why they are pivoting the message, could be any number of reasons... but I assume it is not because Warhammer+ is doing great on streaming.

Club eh? Quite a turn from streaming service. Don't they already have a magazine sub that sends you models as well? I know CEOing is hard but squatting over your mess and calling it dinner would have me fuming as an investor.

 

 

 

CEOs have to put out their most positive spin for those kind of calls, but it definitely got a slightly raised eyebrow from me. Wish I could find the article again.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

 

If Warhammer+ needs to make money they need a long view plan and some serious further investment in their studio team. If their goal was marketing the model seems weird. Either way Warhammer + comes across half hearted and awkwardly priced. Not good enough to entice new folks and not enough releases to serve the superfan. If the best thing about your video channel is the free swag something is amiss.

Just want to comment on this part. During GW's last earning's call their CEO (I think) said something about Warhammer+ really being a "club" for their customers to join. My take on that is they are pivoting away from marketing W+ as a streaming service into something that people just subscribe to for the extras.

 

As for why they are pivoting the message, could be any number of reasons... but I assume it is not because Warhammer+ is doing great on streaming.

Club eh? Quite a turn from streaming service. Don't they already have a magazine sub that sends you models as well? I know CEOing is hard but squatting over your mess and calling it dinner would have me fuming as an investor.

 

 

 

CEOs have to put out their most positive spin for those kind of calls, but it definitely got a slightly raised eyebrow from me. Wish I could find the article again.

 

 

Completely pathetic for GW. Where are the experts to give them advice? They probably would have been handed some gems via a official survey about a streaming service without paying for consultants or focus groups. They gotta dump cash into this thing to give it AAA animations to diversify the IP away from the changing table top market. I think GW should approach some anime studio's with a cheap licence to make content. Two super easy ones to start- an Isekai series about the Inquisition and a mecha series about Imperial Knights (female MC knight pilot, good split of males and female's cast). Those genre's have a broad appeal and are basic by anime standards I believe would be wildly popular with joe public. Twelve episodes a season, every second week would fill out most of the year schedule and every other week could be existing content for animations like they are doing otherwise. 

 

EDIT- pg 5 half year results 2021-2022

 

With something for every Warhammer fan, our brand-new subscription service Warhammer+ got off to a great start. In particular, our animation and in-house shows have been extremely popular, with 2 million views in total across all shows in just three months. We view Warhammer+ as a ‘club’ for our most loyal fans and will look to extend the ways in which we deliver them even more exclusive content and reward them with exciting new product and service offers.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by MegaVolt87

[Dark Shepherd]

they may as well have said this didnt go as well as we thought it would

[Taliesin]

I dont have any issue with the subscription pricing. Its just the lack of animation content that's really been so far below what people expected.

When they announced it, they had such a host of animated shows listed. And even if you knew that wasnt gonna be available all at once, I did personally expect that they had enough ready to do 1 episode a week at least, that didnt seem that exceptional to me, and it still doesnt.

 

But instead they even manage to go many weeks without uploading anything. I think you did a poll among fans/subscribers, no one would have surmised that content would have been this limited. If I had to estimate what their plans are, it seems the Tau show will start very soon and they will just upload one a week of that for as many episodes as they have, maybe even with another totally unnecessary" mid-season"  break in it to stretch it out. Followed by that Interrogator show ( which to me looks very below par based on that snippet they showed)  and before you know it, its summer and thats all they've shown.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Taliesin

[Domhnall]

they may as well have said this didnt go as well as we thought it would

 

You can't say that, not management speak enough. How about, "WH+ is in progress to realise it's fullest potential." Or, "WH+ is currently satisfying the complete hobby experience with our customers, by starting out strong with a defined goal, interest waning, then sitting on a shelf waiting for that time the dream becomes reality. At some point. Later... Ooh look, new Eldar!" 

 

 

I dont have any issue with the subscription pricing. Its just the lack of animation content that's really been so far below what people expected.

When they announced it, they had such a host of animated shows listed. And even if you knew that wasnt gonna be available all at once, I did personally expect that they had enough ready to do 1 episode a week at least, that didnt seem that exceptional to me, and it still doesnt.

 

But instead they even manage to go many weeks without uploading anything. I think you did a poll among fans/subscribers, no one would have surmised that content would have been this limited. If I had to estimate what their plans are, it seems the Tau show will start very soon and they will just upload one a week of that for as many episodes as they have, maybe even with another totally unnecessary" mid-season"  break in it to stretch it out. Followed by that Interrogator show ( which to me looks very below par based on that snippet they showed)  and before you know it, its summer and thats all they've shown.

 

I don't think that was too unreasonable, in that the animations were the biggest pull during the hype. For them not to have an animation even every other week is a bit of a let down.

As an outsider, I don't know what stage everything is at in production, nor the costs/cashflow situation within the business for the animations. But my assumption would be that they wouldn't have everything paid for and ready to go out the gate (on the assumption most are made 'out of house'), so I'm assuming they'll get released in order as they are finished. There was a point to this part of the post, but I think I've lost it, so I'll just say what I've said before, that they launched this a bit too quickly, and should have pumped more into it to have more content at the start. 

 

On the plus side, I have found the masterclass tutorials useful and even incorporated them into my painting 

[Dark Shepherd]

I think youre right about how they should have delayed it, rather than possibly sticking rigidly to a schedule (and possibly underestimating backlash)

 

Theres also a few known unknowns of how much it (and key staff) were affected by Covid, the IT problems, Wade Price being in hospital

 

Its also arguably the first or only the second time they could be described as directly going up against competition that was free

Edited February 8, 2022 by Dark Shepherd

[Verevolf]

Look at the likes of Deployment zone, i'm not a sub but i'm aware they got play-on to do content for them, why aren't GW doing something similar?

 

Hiring a known entity which makes quality battle reports? I'd love to see a huge Crusade... Imagine the Badab War as a narrative Crusade?  What about GW Staff VS a content creator match? 

 

There is so much content possible outside of what Warhamster+ is giving us right now, that it feels like they are being lazy. 

[Taliesin]

 

they may as well have said this didnt go as well as we thought it would

 

You can't say that, not management speak enough. How about, "WH+ is in progress to realise it's fullest potential." Or, "WH+ is currently satisfying the complete hobby experience with our customers, by starting out strong with a defined goal, interest waning, then sitting on a shelf waiting for that time the dream becomes reality. At some point. Later... Ooh look, new Eldar!" 

 

 

I dont have any issue with the subscription pricing. Its just the lack of animation content that's really been so far below what people expected.

When they announced it, they had such a host of animated shows listed. And even if you knew that wasnt gonna be available all at once, I did personally expect that they had enough ready to do 1 episode a week at least, that didnt seem that exceptional to me, and it still doesnt.

 

But instead they even manage to go many weeks without uploading anything. I think you did a poll among fans/subscribers, no one would have surmised that content would have been this limited. If I had to estimate what their plans are, it seems the Tau show will start very soon and they will just upload one a week of that for as many episodes as they have, maybe even with another totally unnecessary" mid-season"  break in it to stretch it out. Followed by that Interrogator show ( which to me looks very below par based on that snippet they showed)  and before you know it, its summer and thats all they've shown.

 

I don't think that was too unreasonable, in that the animations were the biggest pull during the hype. For them not to have an animation even every other week is a bit of a let down.

As an outsider, I don't know what stage everything is at in production, nor the costs/cashflow situation within the business for the animations. But my assumption would be that they wouldn't have everything paid for and ready to go out the gate (on the assumption most are made 'out of house'), so I'm assuming they'll get released in order as they are finished. There was a point to this part of the post, but I think I've lost it, so I'll just say what I've said before, that they launched this a bit too quickly, and should have pumped more into it to have more content at the start. 

 

On the plus side, I have found the masterclass tutorials useful and even incorporated them into my painting 

 

 

I think from GW's perspective though, they would not say they launched too soon at all. Any subscription money that they could rake in already is money in their pocket after all.

Yeah there was overpromising and false advertising but they are not gonna care one bit. From their perspective, they had Angels of Death ready to go and a few Hammer and Bolter shows so they just wanted to get started and not wait.

 

Of course even for them a downside now could be that subscribers get so turned off that they will forego on subscribing again because the experience made them sour. 

[phandaal]

Its also arguably the first or only the second time they could be described as directly going up against competition that was free

 

That set GW back from the start for sure. Aside from animations, are they offering any truly unique programming? Batreps are elsewhere, lore videos are elsewhere, painting tutorials are all over the place. Am I missing anything?

[Noserenda]

Yeah, on the one hand every annual sub they got from people on faith was a win for them but the real measure i think is going to be the retention, and im not sure next years minis have the same wow factor (For silhouette only ofc) to keep customers like that Vindicare does. I would however expect a charm offensive from GW in the run up to August for exactly that purpose, it might even explain the paucity of content now if they are saving it for folks short term memories where it counts.

[ThePenitentOne]

 

As a producer of battle reports I have to bring up the costs of such an operation.  Running a studio is very expensive and scaling to that proposed schedule would require multiple teams working in tandem to realize. To meet the standards they have set takes time.  

 

 

Studio costs are expensive for sure. What we're looking at here is a team that has a studio space. The question becomes how many man hours does it take for a batrep?

 

So I'm going to say 24 man hours for principal photography- that's two players and a camera guy putting in an eight hour day. This assumes a few things: 

 

1/ you have the models and terrain painted

2/ light levels have been tested and set- this is work that needs to be done ONCE, because every subsequent battle is filmed in the same space with the same equipment

3/ dedicated dice cams- stationary, do not require an operator

4/ camera is sufficient to capture audio as well as video

5/ players have practiced enough to be game competent and charismatic at the same time

 

On the next day, that material passes to an editor. If this is a 4rth person, the others are free to do principal photography for the battle that airs the following week.

 

I think for a competent editor, a standard batrep could be an eight hour day. This assumes that all your overlay resources are already created- like setting levels, this is a job that's done ONCE, and the assets are reused again and again. If 8 hours isn't enough, I'd say you're looking at no more than 16.

 

So 4 people putting in a full work week can produce a minimum of two finished batreps per week, with another two or three in the cue waiting for an editor. Hire a second editor, and you're doing a month worth of weekly batreps in a week. So that's a year of batreps in three months.

 

We had 3 months of lead time that WH+ was coming. The fact that there hasn't been a batrep every single week just doesn't make sense given GW's resources. Even if my calculations are of by 100%, it should still be very possible for GW to handle this load. 

[tychobi]

 

 

As a producer of battle reports I have to bring up the costs of such an operation.  Running a studio is very expensive and scaling to that proposed schedule would require multiple teams working in tandem to realize. To meet the standards they have set takes time.  

 

 

Studio costs are expensive for sure. What we're looking at here is a team that has a studio space. The question becomes how many man hours does it take for a batrep?

 

So I'm going to say 24 man hours for principal photography- that's two players and a camera guy putting in an eight hour day. This assumes a few things: 

 

1/ you have the models and terrain painted

2/ light levels have been tested and set- this is work that needs to be done ONCE, because every subsequent battle is filmed in the same space with the same equipment

3/ dedicated dice cams- stationary, do not require an operator

4/ camera is sufficient to capture audio as well as video

5/ players have practiced enough to be game competent and charismatic at the same time

 

On the next day, that material passes to an editor. If this is a 4rth person, the others are free to do principal photography for the battle that airs the following week.

 

I think for a competent editor, a standard batrep could be an eight hour day. This assumes that all your overlay resources are already created- like setting levels, this is a job that's done ONCE, and the assets are reused again and again. If 8 hours isn't enough, I'd say you're looking at no more than 16.

 

So 4 people putting in a full work week can produce a minimum of two finished batreps per week, with another two or three in the cue waiting for an editor. Hire a second editor, and you're doing a month worth of weekly batreps in a week. So that's a year of batreps in three months.

 

We had 3 months of lead time that WH+ was coming. The fact that there hasn't been a batrep every single week just doesn't make sense given GW's resources. Even if my calculations are of by 100%, it should still be very possible for GW to handle this load. 

 

1. GW has the painted stuff to shoot true.

2. Somewhat.  Checks and tweaks are needed for every shoot.

3. True.

4. False.  Lavalier mikes at least. 

5. True.  That does not mean that engaging presenters will work for free.

 

2 players, camera operator, and director would be needed for a bat rep shoot.  To do it right, lighting person and sound specialist as well.  Animations and graphics best done ahead of time but is time consuming and expensive and often needs tweaks for specific productions.  The set, script, models, map, terrain, need prep and set up even if you have them at hand. You can say whatever you like but 80 hours of post production is not uncommon for a well edited bat rep.  Thats with a pro editor that plays 40k to a high level (an uncommon combo) and only one review pass.  I think that the GW bat rep team is doing their job very well with the rescorces likely available.  

[Wulf Vengis]

EDIT: Actually, I don't have a horse in this race as I'm not a customer. Nevermind. Edited February 9, 2022 by Wulf Vengis

[ThePenitentOne]

The GW batreps are high quality- no argument there.

 

And yeah, at a second glance, you're right, my estimate is quite low. At the outside though, I think it's possible for a team of five to bang one of these out per week. This is assuming, of course, that the team of five is entirely dedicated to this project. The first three would probably take two weeks a piece while everyone learns the ropes- you figure out your rhythms, and get comfortable. But these things follow a formula, and once you master the formula, the project time gets faster.

 

By release day, they should have had 4-6 episodes on deck, giving them 4-6 weeks of lead time, and that should have been enough to make the team into a well oiled machine. Remember, I'm suggesting a model where this is what they do- there is no "other job" - this isn't a passion project. It's 9-5, Mon-Friday. 

 

Sure, if you're splitting off members of the team to work on other WH+ projects, things get more complicated, and realistically, they probably are doing that. There are a lot of details we don't know, and I'm sure that everyone involved wants to do the best job they can. I don't know how much GW has invested, or how big their teams are; I don't know how they are managing the studio or how big it is.

 

How many Batreps do Tabletop Titans put up in a month, and how big is their team? The quality is similar to what GW puts out, so they're a good comparison. Their reps tend to be longer, because they aren't as focused- lots of casual and hobby related talk. Greater length would mean more editing time. 

 

Either way, if more resources are required, more should be committed. Initial buy-in was probably significant due to curiosity and the promo models. But with the lack of content, they are going to hemorrhage subscribers, and they will not be able to sustain the platform. If they keep subscribers happy, they maintain their budget. Doubling up on batreps, even if they are as intensive as you claim, is likely easier than doubling up on animations.

 

Not sending a camera crew to LVO to lock in 5 hours of footage? What the heck was that? I mean, I don't know that I would have watched it, but it would have been SOMETHING, and it seems like a no brainer.