Scarabs or Rubrics?

[Xenith]

A thought I just had was whether Scarabs were actually better than Rubrics?

 

For comparison, a max squad of rubrics is about the same pts as a min squad of SOT's:

 

220pts = Aspiring Sorc + 8 rubrics with bolters + 1 soulreaper

215pts = SOT Sorcerer + 1 rubric with soulreaper, missile rack, +3 SOT's, 1 staff 4x khopesh + native deepstrike

 

Rubrics have 20 3+/5++ wounds; get 16 bolter shots at 24", 5 soulreaper shots at 24"; 10 models for ObSec

SOT's have 15 2+/5++ wounds, get 16 bolter + 5 soulreaper + 2 missiles at 24"; 5 models for ObSec, + native deepstrike

 

When you reduce it you get:

Rubrics = 20 3+/5++ Wounds

Scarabs = 15 2+/5++ wounds + 2 missiles + 4 khopesh + native deepstrike

 

As I started this topic, I totally forgot about the Khopesh, which probably has a value of 5-10pts per model, right? Initially I thought 10 rubrics would be superior, but I think that would push things in the SOT's favour. Is there a reason you would take ten rubrics over the five SOT's?

 

-------------------------------------

 

Instead, how about 2x5 rubrics with reapers vs 5x SOT's?

230pts = 2x Aspiring Sorc + 6x rubrics with bolters + 2x rubric with soulreaper

215pts = SOT Sorcerer + 1 rubric with soulreaper, missile rack, +3 SOT's, 1 staff 4x khopesh + native deepstrike

 

Rubrics have 2x sorcerers/casts/CaP's, 20 3+/5++ wounds; get 12 bolter shots at 24", 10 soulreaper shots at 24"; 10 models for ObSec

SOT's have 1x sorcerer/cast/CaP 15 2+/5++ wounds, get 16 bolter + 5 soulreaper + 2 missiles at 24"; 5 models for ObSec + native deepstrike

 

When you reduce it you get:

Rubrics = 20 3+ Wounds + 5 soulreaper shots + 1 cast + 1 Cabal Point

Scarabs = 15 2+ wounds + 2 missiles + 4 khopesh + native deepstrike

 

If you assume the wounds are effectively the same, you can cancel them out also to get:

Rubrics =  + 5 soulreaper shots +3 staff attacks + 1 cast + 1 Cabal Point 

Scarabs = + 2 missiles + 4 khopesh + native deepstrike

 

Not to mention the increased board presence from 2 units, one sorc can be doing a psychic action for VP's etc. Is that a more favourable comparison?

 

What do you prefer, 2x 5 man rubrics or 1x 5 man SOT?

Edited September 2, 2021 by Xenith

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I find value in the Terminator's free deepstrike as well. So when making this decision I think that should be looked at also. Gotta spend a CP for rubrics so there is some savings there in a CP hungry army.

 

I will say your exercise really showed me how well balance to 2 units are to each other.

[Xenith]

I find value in the Terminator's free deepstrike as well. So when making this decision I think that should be looked at also. Gotta spend a CP for rubrics so there is some savings there in a CP hungry army.

 

I will say your exercise really showed me how well balance to 2 units are to each other.

 

Oh yes, forgot about that - edited accordingly. I tend to not deepstrike anything in 9th ed - the smaller table sizes combined with strat reserved have really removed the need to. I'd only really consider it if there was nowhere to hide them in my deployment zone and I was expecting an alpha strike. I also find that fewer units on the table makes my opponents targeting choices easier. 5 scarabs on the table might weather some firepower that would wipe my 2x5 rubrics (D2 weapons), leaving me with vastly reduced scoring. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Xenith

[Mushkilla]

If you're not running flamers the scarabs feel like a better choice.

 

But if you are using warpflamers they are quite different units. Rubrics being movement 7-12 (without losing the ability to shoot) compared to scarabs 5 making them quite fast. On the other hand scarabs gain some mobility with charges/pile in/consolidate which is a different kind of movement as its sequencing is different (in the assault phase) but it's direction is controlled by your opponents models.

 

The other thing is scarabs don't have access to icons of flame. Cabal points are super useful.

 

Even when considering regular bolter rubrics 105pts is a lot more expendable if you just want to score an objective, do an action etc.

 

Personally I find both units have a place.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Mushkilla

[Cleon]

Another thing to consider is the enemy - If you are fighting someone with a large number of 2 damage or variable damage weapons, those 15 wounds of the SOT start to creep up as odd wounds are wasted, similarly if you are facing mostly D1 0AP weapons (or even -1AP if you can leverage cover then all is dust makes both sets of saves 2+).

 

I've started to plan out a Thousands sons force and I'm coming to the conclusion the answer is 'both', Rubrics are better for spreading out to claim edge objectives (and for manoeuvrability in game if they have a rhino), but SOT edge it for the fought over objectives where their increased melee prowess probably accounts for more than the extra count of obsec models.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Cleon

[Trokair]

While it does not directly affect the performance on the table, rubrics are troop. So either you need to fill the troop slot with other stuff or take a CP hungry vanguard detachment. It just depends on what else you want to bring, and for what purpose.

[Prot]

Xen, I find the last sentence of your first statement is probably the most telling:

 

 

 

As I started this topic, I totally forgot about the Khopesh, which probably has a value of 5-10pts per model, right? Initially I thought 10 rubrics would be superior, but I think that would push things in the SOT's favour.

 

For me it's typically been a 5 man squad comparison. The argument for buffs gets a bit skewed once you increase the squad size.  So to keep it simple, those Kopesh's.... that's the biggest thing.

 

Prior to this codex I would have put the squads in a more similar tar pit category... meaning close combat was a total nightmare for both squads. A HUGE difference is in those Kopesh's. Aside from those dastardly Death Guard and their stinky resilience, I've found the Kopesh makes people thing a LOT harder about charging in.

 

I put the Scarab 5 man slightly above the Rubric 5 man right now. But points are a concern, and the Rubrics have their place. 

 

At the end of the day, let's cut to the chase. I really, really hate to say this but if there's a negative here it's that both these units, going forward, will be the lynchpin of the competitive meta (HQ's notwithstanding). (/bold statement Cotton?) 

 

Seriously, this is kind of a non debate. Take all the other non-HQ units in the codex. Tear the datasheets out, throw them in the garbage, and you have the only two units you need to get the most out of the codex. Am I out of my mind? Check back in six months and let's see.

 

I'm no rocket surgeon but I know Grey Knights, and keep a finger on the pulse of things enough to know that almost everyone and their dog in the 'competitive' 40K media are declaring Grey Knights the winners based purely on a head to head that favours GK, and more importantly; GK Datasheets are flat out superior. 

 

That last part might be controversial to post in the TS forum, but I want to give you guys food for thought. That's the larger opinion: GK are going to make a bigger splash competitively BUT TS are far, far more popular. 

 

So when it comes to competitive play (that's the only way I can equate these things, because if it's purely a fun game, then who cares about efficiency?) I say you take these two units, repeat them, and the rest is a LTP issue.

[Xenith]

Something I just noticed is that All is Dust is just for heavy weapons. I assumed it meant the unit counted as stationary, so could rapid fire bolters at 24", however this is not the case, they only get 2 shots at 12" or when standing still, so that's a massive point in favour of the scarabs. 

[Prot]

Something I just noticed is that All is Dust is just for heavy weapons. I assumed it meant the unit counted as stationary, so could rapid fire bolters at 24", however this is not the case, they only get 2 shots at 12" or when standing still, so that's a massive point in favour of the scarabs. 

 

Yes, until you add flamers. It's important to note that the Rubrics would have to use their Strat to get the full fire shots while moving which I think is kind of silly.

 

Nevertheless this is why I have been less hot on the Flame-bric configuration when ever I use a fair chunk of Scarabs.

 

I think Scarabs are just amazing now that they have Kopesh's and Obsec. And as you've discovered, that constant 4 shots at 24" (can be 5) is great for low level troop match ups.

 

One thing that is nice for Flame-brics though, and I've used this frequently is the S5 flamers via Pyric Flux. It doesn't rely on any other mechanism like the Infernal Master, etc. As someone who plays against Orks, and Death Guard frequently, this really is a strong plus for Rubrics.