Unit of the Week: Hellbrute

[Xenith]

++Thousand Sons Unit of the Week++

++Hellbrute++

New codex, new discussions about units! As we already have in other faction sections, this is the Thousand Sons Unit of the Week series, where each week we select and dissect a datasheet found in the book, and discuss how we use the unit in-game, favoured loadouts and combos, essentially how to use these units best. What have you found that works, and what doesnt? Please try to stick to the idea of making the unit in question work, as opposed to pointing out other units that might do a better job - we'll get to those in time!

This week, we will be discussing the Hellbrute.

What are you thoughts, and how best would you use the unit?

• To compliment a list, or to build a list around?
  
• Will you be running multiples?
  
• What <GREAT CULT>, loadouts, spell relic and Stratagem support do you prefer and how much does it depend on the above choices?
  
• Are you buffing this unit, and if so, how?
  
• Are you building as a damage dealer or buff-provider?
  
• Uses in Matched, Narrative and Open Play
  
• How have they fared for you in-game?
  

Over to you.

++Thousand Sons Unit of the Week Index Link++

Edited September 20, 2021 by Xenith

[Xenith]

As the Volkite Contemptor discussion (which will have it's own topic in due time) moved slightly onto the Hellbrute, I thought I'd open the floor to a dedicated thread to discuss the new Hellbrute. Now with a native 5++, the Thousand Sons Hellbrute is possibly among the best available to anyone, and is a tweaked version of the old brute from the CSM codex. In addition to the 5++, we also get access to an inferno combi bolter, making the backup weaponry better than other legions, and depending on your view, still gets infernal fusilades rule, according to the glossary at the back of the codex.

 

I've curated a few views below:

 

 

 

 I do know my Plasma helbrute absolutely sucks,

 

Might want to reassess that? The guns a flat S8 3D now, averaging 2 shots so making it more reliable at >12" than the multimelta (depending on whether you favour D6 damage over a flat 3 Damage), and has longer range to boot. Swings and roundabouts also on the mortal on 1 to hit - if you get that and knock yourself down to 7W, then you trigger fire frenzy and reroll 1's to wound without your opponent damaging you. 

 

 

 

Well, the MM gets 2 shots, the plasma averages 2. Both are S8, then you have ap-4 and d6 damage Vs ap-3 and flat 3 damage at >12".

When you get within 12" the MM is better, for sure, but they're at least equivalent at longer range. While the mm caps at 12 damage for 2 wounds Vs the 9 from the plasma, average is 7 Vs 6, so not too different.

 

 

 

 

 I do know my Plasma helbrute absolutely sucks,

 

Might want to reassess that? The guns a flat S8 3D now, averaging 2 shots so making it more reliable at >12" than the multimelta (depending on whether you favour D6 damage over a flat 3 Damage), and has longer range to boot. Swings and roundabouts also on the mortal on 1 to hit - if you get that and knock yourself down to 7W, then you trigger fire frenzy and reroll 1's to wound without your opponent damaging you. 

 

hmmm. Nope. He still stinks. Try a few games with him. To me he brings nothing that a meta brute doesn’t do better. Plus the mm brute doesn’t wound himself. 

 

 

 

The Hellbrute has a decent selection of armaments for both ranged and melee weapons, so what are you using at the moment?

 

As above, the Multimelta hellbrute is definitely a great choice due to the new multimelta rules giving it a second shot, and it benefits immensely from the rerolls to wound granted by fire frenzy. Is anyone using other weapons on the Brute?

 

I keep looking at a hellbrute with 2x fists and 2 combis to get something like 7A in melee, and 8 inferno bolter shots on the way in, but this is probably overshadowed by getting better overall shooting as you move up the table. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Xenith

[WarriorFish]

I think the role of Dreadnoughts is unchanged and has been for some time; the difference is in the flavour. So as a rule it functions best as a support unit for your core units. For Sons, as with many others, the dual role of long ranged support (in particular AT) and some close combat heft goes far. Sons have more call for going big on long range with how limited it is elsewhere in the codex, but this is all down to how you with to interpret this particular flavour

 

With SOT for anti-infantry duties, and Daemon Engines an option for clobbering tanks and monsters I'm thinking that I might be focusing on the long range AT aspect but I'll see when I get there. I do like Dreadnoughts so as much as I wanted an infantry focus for my Sons their addition was almost certainly only a matter of time

[Karhedron]

My personal choice would be to run a pair of them with MMs and Fists and move them upfield aggressively. Dreads/Helbrutes are already strong units in 9th and the 5++ and Inferno Bolters are just gravy. MMs are my heavy weapon of choice since we have relatively few dedicated tank-busting weapons.

 

All the melee weapon options are pretty good. I like the consistency of the flat 3 Damage on the Fists but I can see cases for the other options.

[Prot]

From my game experience, I think I might be so bold as to say if it ain't a "Sorcerer", the best unit assisting my Thousand Sons forces is probably MM/Fist Helbrutes. 

 

Nothing amazing. They work with anything that says "core"; they get the coveted 5++ that most armies would love, and the -1 to damage. 

 

The really big advantage of the Melta for me is it fills the void of anti vehicle. As I write this Ork vehicle lists are gaining meta-momentum. You'll never be out of the +2 damage range. 

 

The plasma just isn't working for me. In fact, I think I would rather go back to my old build of Missile/Lascannon instead. The combo of Egleighen's Orrery just might make the ol' shooty box more viable.

 

The negative? Well to me at least it appears the Thousand Sons Codex in general favours infantry/calvary. Unfortunately there's no way to heal a vehicle, aside from our daemon engines (which Helbrutes are not classified as).

[GreenPlasma]

My impression of Helbrutes :

 

They have an impressive profile for punching Bladeguard. Scourge is an effective alternative against 1W chaff with 6++ or 6+++ saves. Plasma is nice in theory but only if it’s consistently getting that 3rd shot or leveraging the 36” range and flat 3D.

 

I think the swing potential of Multimelta will draw more fire away from your infantry, which is good. Reaching out to 30” is theoretically possible and that’s a looooooong walk if they dismount something. No support is required defensively; put Weaver on Spawn, Temporal Manipulation and Glamour on the MVB, and Helbrutes will still benefit from their innate -1DR.

 

So yeah, a great economy unit that will relieve pressure on core infantry and occasionally shine with good dice or force multipliers. Maybe, just maybe they could work as fire support in the right Cult. The cool thing is when Volcons get picked up, that CP is lost. After your Lascannon/ML Brutes are long gone, a Daemon Prince with the Brazier and a Fate D6 would be keeping those CP on the table.

[Xenith]

Anyone see use for a TLC/ML hell brute as long range fire support? It's something I'm struggling with in games, the ability to reach out and touch a tank, but we don't seem to have any optimal stuff. 

[Karhedron]

Anyone see use for a TLC/ML hell brute as long range fire support? It's something I'm struggling with in games, the ability to reach out and touch a tank, but we don't seem to have any optimal stuff.

That's 135 points. Considering it has almost as much anti-tank firepower as a 170 point Predator with 4 lascannons, has the -1 Damage ability and is CORE, I would say it is a good option. It can also frag infantry if needed. 12 S4 shots against units of 11+ is not too shabby.

 

Granted it is not as fast as a Predator but it doesn't degrade (in fact it gets better once it takes a bit of damage). It has 3 less Wounds but Monstrous resilience compensates for that. While my heart tells me to take a CCW, my head acknowledges that it is one of the better fire support options if you are running pure Sons. The only better options are FW I think.

[Xenith]

You had me thinking the Dread ML got the Horus Heresy treatment of 2 shots there! It's still only heavy 1, unfortunately. Still, 135pts for 2 lascannons, ML, -1D and Core, vs 130 for a naked Annihilator with 2 lascannons and 3 more wounds seems decent?

[WarriorFish]

I used to use the Hellfire Dread a lot for my loyalists back in the day, a reliable way to add some long strong heavy AT. I think Kar is right in that its a good pick and stands alongside the Predator. A bit less hitting power, but some flexibility with the Missile Rocket Launcher which is always a handy option. I think the -1 Damage rule is at least enough to match the extra Wounds the Predator has.

[Karhedron]

You had me thinking the Dread ML got the Horus Heresy treatment of 2 shots there! It's still only heavy 1, unfortunately.

You are quite right, I must have been thinking CML. Not quite as strong as I had thought but still worth considering.

[Are Verlo]

For me the CORE keyword makes the dread viable. Both the shooty (ML/TL) and the multipurpose dreads are good enough to use when given the «free» 5++.

 

As you guys posted it has -1 dam, is not degrading and can reroll from auras and it’s own frenzy. And as a cherry on top the core keyword let’s the dread enjoy the orrery relic.