Eternal Crusade Tactics (Updated Oct 9, 2021)

[BitsHammer]

 

Thought croased my mind that didn't other threads since it feels more general purpose: AAC is the defensive melee buff. Take it on an aggressive shooting army build and punch like you just charged.

 

Shock Assault lets you do that the turn you get charged anyway, so it is only valuable in subsequent turns in a bogged-down combat. And now your shooty units can't fall back.

Well than I'm wrong and can't think of a good utility case for AAC.

[Brother Kraskor]

I guess it is good if you expect to go up against a load of tarpit units and want to maintain combat power across multiple turns.

[Charlo]

It's anti-tarpit.

 

There are some armies that want to speedbump melee units, and it's there to stop them from overwhelming BT after the first round

[a_typical_hero]

Played my first game with the new supplement today against Orks.

 

My list:

- Vow: Uphold the Honor of the Emperor

- Primaris Chaplain on Bike (Mantra of Strength, Exhortation of Rage, Benediction of Fury, Master of Sanctity, Wise Orator, Paragon of Fury)

- Emperor's Champion (Master of Arms)

- Primaris Crusader Squad (10, Power Axe, 2 Power Fists, Chainswords & Pistols)

- Redemptor Dread (Macro Plasma Incinerator, OGC, Icarus)

- Venerable Dread (Multi-melta)

- Suppressor Squad

- Eradicator Squad (3)

 

My feedback:

- Primaris Crusader Squads are a liability. Today was the first time after dozens of games in this edition, where I had to use Insane Bravery.

- I will probably never play more than one squad. No additional Initiates, only Neophytes and only if I get them a 5+ FnP from a Priest. 2CP down the drain.

- Power Fists really need a re-roll aura of any kind to be useful, which means you basically need 2 Litanies to babysit a single squad.

- 5++ on all units was good. It came into play a lot. The mini transhuman not so much, but it is a nice bonus.

- VenDread soaked alot of damage AND didn't degrade. MM in melee will wreck anybodys face. Absolute winner.

- The EC was surprisingly tanky with Transhuman. He fought a duel against a generic Warboss on dino with that WT to attack again for each attack that didn't cause damage. Survived the first round with 1 wound. But 2 fight phases are enough to wreck enemy chars.

 

The Chaplain wasn't doing much most of the time, but just for laughs he DID charge those grots with full buffs going on. First he run over one Grot (5+ mortals) and then smacked them around with S8 4D attacks.

 

I will probably replace the Crusader squad with (Assault) Intercessors.

[BitsHammer]

I don't think they're a liability, I think this shows that they don't do a pure melee build well in the current game.

[a_typical_hero]

The loadout didn't matter much, as the squad was reduced to the Sword Brother and one Fist after the first turn. In the given game 2 Pyreblaster to do some damage on Overwatch would have been much better, but that doesn't change the vulnerability to morale. A 5++ only goes so far before you take too many casualties. IIRC a Dakkajet and a Squigbuggy took out 6 guys from the squad, before I lost another two in melee.

Edited October 17, 2021 by a_typical_hero

[BitsHammer]

The loadout didn't matter much, as the squad was reduced to the Sword Brother and one Fist after the first turn. In the given game 2 Pyreblaster to do some damage on Overwatch would have been much better, but that doesn't change the vulnerability to morale. A 5++ only goes so far before you take too many casualties. IIRC a Dakkajet and a Squigbuggy took out 6 guys from the squad, before I lost another two in melee.

With that kind of match up I can't imagine that Assault Intercessors would have lived longer.

[a_typical_hero]

The difference would be, that 2x5 (Assault) Intercessors don't have problems with morale and/or a natural treshhold of 5 models that could die. At the end I might have lost the same amount of models, maybe one less, but that is alright. What hurt were the 2 CP I needed to circumvent morale.

 

I think a Malleus Inquisitor with double denies and the ability to hand out LD 9 to nearby squads is a good companion for Templars, if you want to run Crusader squads.

Edited October 17, 2021 by a_typical_hero

[BitsHammer]

The difference would be, that 2x5 (Assault) Intercessors don't have problems with morale and/or a natural treshhold of 5 models that could die. At the end I might have lost the same amount of models, maybe one less, but that is alright. What hurt were the 2 CP I needed to circumvent morale.

 

I think a Malleus Inquisitor with double denies and the ability to hand out LD 9 to nearby squads is a good companion for Templars, if you want to run Crusader squads.

Chaplains share their Ld 9 in a bubble as well (Spiritual Leader).

 

And again, it sounds more like the issue is the list you faced than the unit being "bad". I get that this edition has lead to MSU being king in most situations, but I think it's worth noting that Templars are an army that wants to stack buffs. We have more buffs than we can handle at times and MSU doesn't buff effectively. 

 

Now I'm not saying you're wrong or not to play what fits your playstyle the most but I feel it's worth pointing out that there are trade-offs in both approaches and I think that one bad game is a bit early to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[a_typical_hero]

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to be shown that a big 20 men blob of doom is a viable take to kick Xenos teeth in. I love the models and I want to field BT units when playing with the BT supplement. :)

 

I just saw that Inquisitors have access to Psychic Fortitude as well. For a measly Warp Charge 4, you get to pass morale tests automatically. This + LD 9 (in case the cast fails or you get denied) + 2 extra denies for yourself for 60p sounds like a bargain to me.

[BitsHammer]

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to be shown that a big 20 men blob of doom is a viable take to kick Xenos teeth in. I love the models and I want to field BT units when playing with the BT supplement.

 

I just saw that Inquisitors have access to Psychic Fortitude as well. For a measly Warp Charge 4, you get to pass morale tests automatically. This + LD 9 (in case the cast fails or you get denied) + 2 extra denies for yourself for 60p sounds like a bargain to me.

Okay, but consider: w i t c h.

[Sir Clausel]

Black templar dont like any psykers :p

Also the list is lacking scoring units + you didnt even have a chaplain with divine protection in the list.

Also the chalpain with all that selfbuffing power and fast movement and you got him charging grots? Doesnt seem like the best use you got out of him. I know you said it was for the fun of it but still. He needs to go in the tougher stuff and he should be able to do it with that speed he has :p

[SkimaskMohawk]

Don't take this the wrong way, but a lot of factions perform very weirdly at different point levels. 1000 points of quality/at weapons like powerfists, eradicators, meltas and plasma is super skewed. There's also, no scoring as everyone has mentioned.

 

Getting blasted by 1000 points of Orks that contain a dakkajet, squigbuggies, dinoboss doesn't determine anything about any unit. Except maybe have a second scoring unit.

[a_typical_hero]

Okay, but consider: w i t c h.

 

 

I guess the Eternal Crusader isn't flying around on autopilot either, eh?

 

Black templar dont like any psykers

Also the list is lacking scoring units + you didnt even have a chaplain with divine protection in the list.

Also the chalpain with all that selfbuffing power and fast movement and you got him charging grots? Doesnt seem like the best use you got out of him. I know you said it was for the fun of it but still. He needs to go in the tougher stuff and he should be able to do it with that speed he has

 

Honestly speaking, I never felt ObSec was that big a of deal for Marines. Most tourny lists don't go beyond 3 min sized troops for a battalion and if it needs to be, we can give one unit ObSec for 1CP.

 

The 5+ FnP would have definitely helped with the resilience, as would have LD 9, but Litanies of the Devout is more of a support type Chaplain imho and I wanted a fast beatstick.

 

There were actual good reasons why I didn't get to charge something worthwhile most of the game. On the first turn I needed him as insurance to finish off a Deffdread in case the VenDread would fail to do so. On the second turn I did not crash him into the Warboss on dino on purpose, as we both agreed an epic duel between the Ork and the Emperor's Champion was what needed to happen, instead of me falling back and shooting the Ork in the face with 3 Eradicators within half Melta range.

 

Third turn the Buggy exploded in the shooting phase, before he got to charge it and Grots were the only thing left in range. Don't worry, afterwards he croaked a Big Mek finally.

[Sir Clausel]

Seems like a very fun little game you had there. Emperors champion vs any kind of big boss is always the most epic thing to do so im happy to see that you both decided that to happen ;)

Sometimes some units just gets blasted off the board and do nothing and sometimes they kill everything they see. After one game it is hard to judge whether a unit is good or bad. And most units have multiple ways it can be used. Chaplains are a good example. They can be absolute monster with the self buffs and pure support character. It makes it fun that you can switch it up :)

I havent had a game yet with the new templars but i look forward to try them out!

[9x19 Parabellum]

So...who won the game, Orks or BT? what was the score?

[Tokugawa]

Orks are also going msu now. New morale mechanics kicked 20+ boyz units out of competitive stage.

 

It would be very weird and uncomfortable, to worrying about morale phase, as a marine player.

[a_typical_hero]

So...who won the game, Orks or BT? what was the score?

I won. He was tabled by end of 4th battle round and I had my Suppressors, Eradicators and the Chaplain left on the field. We played "Behind enemy lines", so scoring is a bit non comparable to the usual Matched Play mission. You get 5 points per battle round where no enemy unit exfiltrated and you get double of a unit's PL in victory points if it exfiltrates for you. We stopped after the 4th turn, but my Chaplain would have exfiltrated for a final score of 32 to 20.

[Mandragola]

I think there's a pretty strong case for running Cotaez with Templars. He can make a Crusader squad fearless and he's seriously puritan, so fluff-wise it's fine. BTs work with the inquisition quite a bit according to the fluff, clearly including the psychic ones. They might not be so happy with whatshername the radical Eldar-loving one. In general an Inquisitor is a good way to fit in a 4th HQ without a second detachment. Cotaez could even be your Warlord, which is nice if you don't want to bother buying Helbrecht's fairly unimpressive trait.

 

One unit I was looking at were Assault Centurions. Now, with book in hand, I see they're ineligible for the blast-flamer strat. It only works on Core, which they aren't.

 

I'm finding the EC hard to love. 100 points seems like an awful lot for a guy who's a character-killing beatstick and nothing else. The issue for me is that almost any BT HQ is going to be a character-killing beatstick, while also typically handing out buffs left, right and centre. It's hard to imagine taking this guy over a Chaplain, or even a Castellan with the teeth of terra.

 

A particular issue is that he's so difficult to customise. There are traits like Rites of War that you might want in your list, and he can't have them. That make it even harder to take him, especially if you're taking special characters, with fixed warlord traits, in your other HQ slots. I think he's maybe a bit over-costed too, but the bigger issue is HQ slots. If he didn't use one up, as used to be the case (albeit several editions ago) he'd be easier to take.

 

I'm quite interested in Witchseeker bolts. I think they could be pretty fun on a character with a stalker bolt rifle, or even the phobos captain (if for some reason you weren't taking Helbrecht). I suppose you could argue that units like bladeguard, vanvets and crusaders are doing your fighting so some characters can hang back and shoot stuff. The bolts could be given to an Eliminator Sergeant, though those are somewhat weak with Uphold the Honour. Maybe a heavy intercessor Sergeant would work though.

[BitsHammer]

So I've got a question for others because I haven't tried Outriders at all this edition: how do people feel about them in the Uphold vow? Does a 5++ give them the durability to see play?

[Medjugorje]

So I've got a question for others because I haven't tried Outriders at all this edition: how do people feel about them in the Uphold vow? Does a 5++ give them the durability to see play?

no. Dark Angels already can play them with Obsec (they dont have to pay a CP) and they have a 5++ and stratagems which support them but they are not good. 

[Tokugawa]

To insert an inquisitor is not attractive today.

 

First: the best inquisition psychic power is to give imperium unit 5++, which we already have now.

 

Second: huge disadvantage on missions against mage armies, especially TSons.

[Medjugorje]

To insert an inquisitor is not attractive today.

 

First: the best inquisition psychic power is to give imperium unit 5++, which we already have now.

 

Second: huge disadvantage on missions against mage armies, especially TSons.

Of course - you absolutely correct. Against TS or GK you will loose the best Autotake Secondary.

[a_typical_hero]

So I've got a question for others because I haven't tried Outriders at all this edition: how do people feel about them in the Uphold vow? Does a 5++ give them the durability to see play?

 

I use them alot with my BAngels and durability was never the issue actually. They have a horrible offensive profile against anything that is not a GEQ. I don't see how we could meaningfully buff that to be honest. Maybe the litany for mortal wounds on 6s to wound? I'm not sure. You average 2 mortals that way on the charge.

 

Even in a Crusade environment with all the buffs you could wish for (WS 2+, always in Assault doctrine, an extra attack, +1 to wound from BAngels) the output is just disappointing. The same amount of points of SangGuard would always be better imho. Only reason I keep playing them is that I like the models.

 

To insert an inquisitor is not attractive today.

 

First: the best inquisition psychic power is to give imperium unit 5++, which we already have now.

 

Second: huge disadvantage on missions against mage armies, especially TSons.

Depends a bit. 60p and 2CP can bring 3 denies to the table along with morale immunity for one squad. If you are the right kind of lunatic who brings a 20 man Crusader squad to the table, you want to have a way to prevent morale from becoming an issue.

[Mandragola]

I agree it's a shame to lose an auto-take secondary. However that doesn't mean there wouldn't still be three good secondaries you could take. Meanwhile Cotaez's denies and fearless buff for a squad could mean you actually win a game that you wouldn't have.

 

I don't know if that's right but it seems like it could be worth testing, if you wanted to take 20-man squads. I do see the attraction of those, as well as the many problems.