my honest opinion

[Brother Carpenter]

Well, our 4th edition dex does say we love armored spearheads. Tanks are just as much BT as footslogging. Whatever gets us there, right?

Ik do believen the original Lore alsof Stated we were not against shooting bolters.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Brother Carpenter

[Charlo]

I think Black Templars are up for anything as long as it SUFFERS NOT THE UNCLEAN TO LIVE

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

Well, our 4th edition dex does say we love armored spearheads. Tanks are just as much BT as footslogging. Whatever gets us there, right?

Ik do believen the original Lore alsof Stated we were not against shooting bolters.

The Holy Bolters!

[BitsHammer]

 

Well, our 4th edition dex does say we love armored spearheads. Tanks are just as much BT as footslogging. Whatever gets us there, right?

Ik do believen the original Lore alsof Stated we were not against shooting bolters.

Very much so. They just happen to be shooting directly into the enemy at such close range that the fight always becomes a hand to hand, so being able to win despite that is handy too. Edited October 13, 2021 by Fulkes

[Marius_Aurilius]

I agree with damn near everything that has been said in this thread.
BT lost some good straits that made us fast. But now we are tanky as heck!
Is that a good thing? I don't know, time will tell.

Is a competitive mindset a good bases for judging a codex, no. But it should be considered and balanced along with fun and fluff view points.

We all have different opinion. We need to look accept that and use those opinions and view points to gain a more well rounded picture of the codex as a whole.

Now that  I am done with my soap box I am going to stir up more drama lol

My wrench is that I am really surprised that we didn't get any rules for transports. Yes we did get the one for the LRC. But that is hardly something to jump for joy over. I have always seen BT as a transport heavy army. I mean look at the LRC, the damn thing has the name crusade in it. We named it after the one thing we all love, CRUSADING!!!

But as much as I know this may hurt first born players, they are going to the way side. We all know this will happen over the next few years. I personally think we should have gotten rules for primaris transports that allow us to disembark and charge. 
That is our thing after all. That's our shtick!
But now we don't have any rules for transport other than for one over costed tank with weak offence and easily killable.

It would be nice to hear from the actual rules writers as to why they do what they do. I think that would help not only me but many other players. I am fine if we have no transport support if it means the rules are balanced well.
 

[MegaVolt87]

I agree with damn near everything that has been said in this thread.

BT lost some good straits that made us fast. But now we are tanky as heck!

Is that a good thing? I don't know, time will tell.

 

Is a competitive mindset a good bases for judging a codex, no. But it should be considered and balanced along with fun and fluff view points.

 

We all have different opinion. We need to look accept that and use those opinions and view points to gain a more well rounded picture of the codex as a whole.

 

Now that  I am done with my soap box I am going to stir up more drama lol

 

My wrench is that I am really surprised that we didn't get any rules for transports. Yes we did get the one for the LRC. But that is hardly something to jump for joy over. I have always seen BT as a transport heavy army. I mean look at the LRC, the damn thing has the name crusade in it. We named it after the one thing we all love, CRUSADING!!!

 

But as much as I know this may hurt first born players, they are going to the way side. We all know this will happen over the next few years. I personally think we should have gotten rules for primaris transports that allow us to disembark and charge. 

That is our thing after all. That's our shtick!

But now we don't have any rules for transport other than for one over costed tank with weak offence and easily killable.

 

It would be nice to hear from the actual rules writers as to why they do what they do. I think that would help not only me but many other players. I am fine if we have no transport support if it means the rules are balanced well.

 

There was this rule for LR's called assault ramps that let every chapter advance and charge regardless of chapter, BT never had a monopoly on mech lists for loyalists. Repulsors should have Assault ramps, even if they are a paid upgrade. Impulsor is just a razorback IMO. I think those with existing firstborn BT will be in a good place at least for now. 

[Palmu]

We did get Multimeltas for primaris vehicles, which...Isn't bad, given how good multimeltas are. Whether it makes them any more interesting is still up for grabs. 

 

Now, what I find the most frustrating about all of this? The Vows. I started playing BT in 5th edition, and everyone here probably knows that AAC was the only vow that actually saw more than niche use. So after the news of Vows coming back, I was kind of hoping that we'd get Vows that are more balanced between each other with this new book.

 

Instead, we got 3 'eh, kind of okay' Vows and Uphold the Honor. History repeats itself, but with a different vow. 

[MegaVolt87]

If I had to guess, I assume that the rhino, pread and vindi can't take a multi melta? 

Edited October 13, 2021 by MegaVolt87

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Correct.

[Marius_Aurilius]

 

I agree with damn near everything that has been said in this thread.

BT lost some good straits that made us fast. But now we are tanky as heck!

Is that a good thing? I don't know, time will tell.

 

Is a competitive mindset a good bases for judging a codex, no. But it should be considered and balanced along with fun and fluff view points.

 

We all have different opinion. We need to look accept that and use those opinions and view points to gain a more well rounded picture of the codex as a whole.

 

Now that  I am done with my soap box I am going to stir up more drama lol

 

My wrench is that I am really surprised that we didn't get any rules for transports. Yes we did get the one for the LRC. But that is hardly something to jump for joy over. I have always seen BT as a transport heavy army. I mean look at the LRC, the damn thing has the name crusade in it. We named it after the one thing we all love, CRUSADING!!!

 

But as much as I know this may hurt first born players, they are going to the way side. We all know this will happen over the next few years. I personally think we should have gotten rules for primaris transports that allow us to disembark and charge. 

That is our thing after all. That's our shtick!

But now we don't have any rules for transport other than for one over costed tank with weak offence and easily killable.

 

It would be nice to hear from the actual rules writers as to why they do what they do. I think that would help not only me but many other players. I am fine if we have no transport support if it means the rules are balanced well.

 

There was this rule for LR's called assault ramps that let every chapter advance and charge regardless of chapter, BT never had a monopoly on mech lists for loyalists. Repulsors should have Assault ramps, even if they are a paid upgrade. Impulsor is just a razorback IMO. I think those with existing firstborn BT will be in a good place at least for now. 

 

Oh yeah the impulsor is very much a razorback. I like that idea for a paid for assault ramp! It would give modern assault armies some flexibility with vehicles that we are lacking compared to our shooting chapters.

 

I do think Primaris will have the leg up only because Helbrecht and Grimaldus are Primaris. They are so good and almost auto takes. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Marius_Aurilius

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

“I do think Primaris will have the leg up only because Helbrecht and Grimaldus are not Primaris. They are so good and almost auto takes.”

 

I don’t follow your comment here.

[General Strike]

“I do think Primaris will have the leg up only because Helbrecht and Grimaldus are not Primaris. They are so good and almost auto takes.”

 

I don’t follow your comment here.

I'm guessing they meant "are now Primaris..."

[Brother Talarian]

I don’t get it…. Why are many brothers saying that we’re a slow army bow because we can no longer advance and charge with one unit? Did everyone’s army consist of one unit?

 

The tables are significantly smaller, how does the loss of one D6 + charge extra movement = whole army is now slow? Yes, I am saddened by this loss as well, but this didn’t make or break a list…

 

If people are referring to the devout push strat impulsor “trick” that was definitely using the rule RAW vs RAI. Though, the stratagem still provides movement.

[BitsHammer]

I don’t get it…. Why are many brothers saying that we’re a slow army bow because we can no longer advance and charge with one unit? Did everyone’s army consist of one unit?

 

The tables are significantly smaller, how does the loss of one D6 + charge extra movement = whole army is now slow? Yes, I am saddened by this loss as well, but this didn’t make or break a list…

 

If people are referring to the devout push strat impulsor “trick” that was definitely using the rule RAW vs RAI. Though, the stratagem still provides movement.

I think it's the Advance and Charge plus Devout Push shennanigans but even then that only works on two units a turn max, and comp play would mean using it on Vanguard Vets.

 

Whole army still has re-roll Advance and Charge rolls standard and Primaris Crusaders come standard with assault weapons which means we don't have to walk in order to shoot.

[Medjugorje]

I don’t get it…. Why are many brothers saying that we’re a slow army bow because we can no longer advance and charge with one unit? Did everyone’s army consist of one unit?

 

The tables are significantly smaller, how does the loss of one D6 + charge extra movement = whole army is now slow? Yes, I am saddened by this loss as well, but this didn’t make or break a list…

 

If people are referring to the devout push strat impulsor “trick” that was definitely using the rule RAW vs RAI. Though, the stratagem still provides movement.

in competitive game you always have very killy units. If you have to move into the midfield and then you have to wait until next round to charge you have a big problem. You need some really fast units which can move as fast as possible. Blood Angels are very killy but they are not very successful on tournaments because they only have 12" movement and then nothing which makes them faster. White Scars perform so well because the whole army can advance and charge (and in addition they have an enourmas superdoctrin). 

 

We used to have the ability to move up to 6" on devout push (which was necessary because normally you hide behind a wall - 3" are way to less) and then with advance and charge this one single unit always get into combat because rerolling advance roles and charge roles and so the opponent always were forced to screen the units which should score.

And especially Terminators which died if you only had 5" movement used to be hide behind any building and in secound or thrid round they moved forward....

 

 

But I want to say that a great problem on this is that we all play with that much terrain which make every single transport which hasnt fly a trash unit. 

If Impulsors still had fly or the ability to move and disembark + charge (or rhinos) we could still make strong close combat armies. Without movement abilites we (competitive BT players) need to make our units as tough as possible and close combat is just a counter tactic - not  the main thing. End even if you had the abilites - there are not enough buffs to make BT units performing as good as the opponent cant strike back. Without rerolls or some game mechanic which makes your attacks as close as reliable then your phase is going against you.

 

For example:

(in assault  dorctrine  because of ACC) I will charge with a 5 Man squad assault intercessors with one powerfist into the same unit but from BA or SW.  Normally in statistic 3 opponent intercessors die ( problem: possible deviation is very high). 

 

Then SW kill the same amount without being in their doctrine - just because of +1 to hit.

Blood Angels without their doctrine killing 2 (1 less but deviation can be dangerous)

If they are in their docrine then its so much more dangerous for us.... not a comparison. 

We dont have any good buffs in stratagems which makes anything reliable.

 

In old lists it was possible to make a unit +1 attack ( from litnaies)  and give them rerolls (from Helbreacht) which made them really really reliable because they always get their job done and then they arrived melee because you had movement + rerols for advance + rerolls for charge.

 

i am so negative about AAC because everything so killy the additional attack which comes on secound round never will have any significant role when opponent will charge you anyway in their round and kills the unit which would gain the AAC-Attack this turn.

I played a few fluff games and most times it ended in a big close combat brawl in the center of the board. In competitive games this dont happen that much ( very rare ) but its like chess where one unit kills the other.

 

Rerolls makes each unit so much better. You can see why people dont play non CORE keyword units. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well it’s time to move along now and quit singing the blues. I wish you the very best.

[Medjugorje]

At the moment I think I have changed my mind about there is no ability to play BT competitive as close combat army. 

Our main problem here is not the codex design. The main problem is that transports are A too expensive and B the core rules are not good for this kind of gameplay.

[BitsHammer]

At the moment I think I have changed my mind about there is no ability to play BT competitive as close combat army. 

Our main problem here is not the codex design. The main problem is that transports are A too expensive and B the core rules are not good for this kind of gameplay.

Yeah, I think the codex has plenty to make us good at melee, the problem is definitely with the core of the game and how transports let us down.

[tvih]

 

Our main problem here is not the codex design. The main problem is that transports are A too expensive and B the core rules are not good for this kind of gameplay.

Sadly not a particularly novel revelation. Meta was quite shooty even before Primaris, but post-Primaris the levels of shooty have just been going up and up. Melee has gotten some buffs too, sure, but rarely can keep pace except with the most ridiculous of codex-specific buffs. Incidentally many of the rules that were done with helping melee in mind even at the core rules level are also infuriating ones in a logical sense. Like tournament rules that are played so that you can essentially walk through walls ("breachable") as if they're not there, but can't shoot through because everything is played as obscuring. "Buff" for melee, sure, stupid, certainly.

 

And yes, transport costs certainly don't help. I dunno why they're so dead-set against them. Like the more expensive ones not even giving the ability to move + then disembark & charge to justify the cost in this meta where they die in a hurry.

Edited October 15, 2021 by tvih

[Banjulhu]

Melee has rarely ever been king in 40K and when it has it's reign has often been short.

[BitsHammer]

Melee has rarely ever been king in 40K and when it has it's reign has often been short.

Right now it seems to only reign in casual 40k or with gimmicky lists.

[Palmu]

Personally I prefer it that way, melee always feels more epic when things come down to it as needs must, rather than because it's just the best solution. And makes those units that make it their primary goal and do it well, feel more awesome.

 

I think it's because the local games back in 5e devolved into huge bashes on the midfield every single time invariably.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Look, the simple fact is that, historically and realistically, if "melee was king", we would never have invented anything past javelins, and we'd be fighting modern wars with chainswords and power nunchucks.

 

It just makes sense in a futuristic wargame, even one with a narrative regression towards a future 'dark age', ranged weapons should be better at killing than melee ones.

[Banjulhu]

All I remember about 5th ed is marine Las-Plas marine squads, Imperial Guard leaf blowers, Kaldor Draigo and Chaos Marine players begging to have the Pete Haines 3.5 codex back.

[BitsHammer]

All I remember about 5th ed is marine Las-Plas marine squads, Imperial Guard leaf blowers, Kaldor Draigo and Chaos Marine players begging to have the Pete Haines 3.5 codex back.

I remember killing Draigowing and Death Company spam with melta guns. Turns out Sisters where a great anti-MEQ army.