counts as Sisters Army- would this be tournament legal?

[JB93]

Hi all,

 

First proper post

 

So I was wondering what people thought about using these models to represent sisters and scions at a tournament. Would you play against them?

 

I’ve tried to keep it WYSIWYG and be as simple as possible, and didn’t start the army thinking I’d want to try competitive or even really play the game,

 

All feedback welcome and appreciated

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/gallery/album/17303-inquisition-army/

 

Haven’t quite worked out the adding pictures yet but have linked the gallery and each image has a description of what I would count it as using either the sister or scions datasheets

Edited January 19, 2022 by JB93

[JB93]

 

INQUISITION TASK FORCE

 

SISTERS OF BATTLE BATTALION- BLOODY ROSE

 

CHARACTERS

 

There are five characters in the AS Battalion; two HQ and three Elites. The Canoness is the warlord, with a bolt pistol and Relic- The Blade of Elynor. The two HQ’s are on 40mm bases (rather than 28mm) for aesthetic reasons, so auras will be adjusted as required. The three Elites are on the correct base sizes. All of the characters represent their datasheet at a glance and all are WYSIWYG.

 

UNITS

 

There are four separate datasheets in the AS Bn: Battle Sisters, Sisters Novitiates, Dominions and Retributors. every effort has been made to differentiate them and represent their rules correctly but there are a small amount of instances where common sense was required to meet WYSIWIG standards completely:

 

Battle sisters weapons- every basic line sister has a boltgun (their only option), so in this instance shotguns represent boltguns on about half the models.

The multi melta model seemed too large and out of proportion on the Subjagator bodies, so they have been modelled as heavy melta rifles, but are distinct form the Dominion Meltas.

The Retributor Superior with combi flamer has a hand flamer and bolt pistol to represent his weapon. In game it is a combi flamer- EDIT- This will come up as it is allows for the ‘Holy Trinity’ Stratagem.

The Novitiates are clearly not modelled in carapace armour, however the whole army is modelled about one grade of armour lighter than traditional, Sisters were just the best fit Codex in every other way. The Simplest view is that everything on a 32mm/40mm base has a 3+ save, and everything on a smaller base has a 4+, this leaves little room for confusion.

 

 

 

ASTRA MILITARUM PATROL- LAMBDON LIONS

 

The AM patrol consists of 2 characters and 5 units. Everything is WYSIWYG and the only non standard feature is the aesthetic choice of mounting the two characters on 32mm bases; again this will be taken into account when measuring auras. This whole patrol can deep strike and has a 4+ save.

 

HERE IS THE DETAILED DESCRIPTION INCLUDING POINTS OD POSSIBLE CONTENTION

[Lukoi]

I imagine an RTT, or GT might be fine with it but most have some form of pre approval they want done in my limited experience. Typically they seem to see pics, and know what you used for proxying, and to ensure there isnt "modeling for advantage," potentially going on. But it will always be a tourney by tourney, case by case basis sort of thing.

 

For the handful run specifically by GW, I believe the answer will generally be a hard no, but again, does not hurt to reach out to tournament organizers and ask.

 

Having said all of that, the onus is on you, not the opponent to have this as clear as possible. Given what you wrote, you might face a mildly uphill battle convincing some TOs at particularly larger events in my opinion.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Lukoi

[JB93]

Thanks for the reply, great to get opinions as I’m starting from scratch here really.

 

When you say given what I wrote what do you mean? I can see what you are saying though. As I said I’m not aiming to play competitively as a main goal, and to be honest I enjoyed the converting and modelling more than the gaming when I was doing both back in third, so I think if the type of army I like to build isn’t suitable I’d probably just not bother and stick to social games rather than buy kits and make them out of the box for tourneys, as most of the fun for me is the uniqueness. But I guess there’s nothing stopping me picking an event and pinging them an email. Worst they can say is no.

 

Cheers again for the reply

[Blurf]

Gonna tell you right now that the characters being on the wrong base size makes it not tournament legal right there. Doesn't matter if you adjust every measurement perfectly and never F it up, if the measurement is wrong, it's illegal.

 

Might get away with it in an RTT but if I was playing against that in a GT or a Major I'd call a judge immediately because I'd assume that if you were modeling for advantage with bigger bases on characters, you've probably got other shenanigans hidden in the conversions as well. Characters, even more than other models, must ABSOLUTELY be on the correct base size for tournament play.

 

Technically everything else is legal, HOWEVER, there is the possibility of a perhaps unintended message being sent. Sisters of Battle is an almost entirely female army. You force is meant to represent their rules but is entirely male. (so far as I can see) Regardless of your intention, it wouldn't be unreasonable for someone to assume that it was done out of some form of sexism or misogyny.

 

I'm absolutely not saying that that has anything to do with it, just be prepared for weird looks.

[Emperor Ming]

Some ace work and hobby effort JB93!

 

I would be happy to face that in a friendly game, sisters player myself in ages past

 

But base sizes will be an issue for most people in matched play. 

[JB93]

Thanks for the feedback folks,

 

Ok so base size is not a huge issue, as in it doesn’t invalidate the army as a whole, I can keep the converted HQs (four in total) for casual games, but then just make a tournament version on 32mm bases (for the Sororitas) and 25mm for the scions to use at a tournemant.

 

Is there anything else looking at the photos I put up that you guys think could be construed as ‘for advantage’?

 

As far as the male sister army goes, that thought hadn’t really crossed my mind to be honest. When I got back into the hobby I really liked the look of the Palanite enforcers and wanted to see if I could do a cool army theme with them.

 

but I didn’t want to have a horde army or use vehicles, which ruled guard out, and they clearly aren’t space marines, but they were a similar size to sisters and similar sort of armour. Also I wanted five man kind of heavy weapon squads, not two guys in a team so it was sisters or space marines, and I went for the sisters.

 

I’d like to think if anyone stood across from the table and chatted to me they would see it was a hobby choice and not a mysoginistic statement, but I appreciate the comment and see that people Could possibly think that.

 

Do you think the armour would rule me out of official play? Like I said the gang I used as Novitiates evidently aren’t in carapace armour, but i think they fit the theme of the fanatics quite well.

 

Thanks for your time

[Slave to Darkness]

Gonna tell you right now that the characters being on the wrong base size makes it not tournament legal right there. Doesn't matter if you adjust every measurement perfectly and never F it up, if the measurement is wrong, it's illegal.

 

Might get away with it in an RTT but if I was playing against that in a GT or a Major I'd call a judge immediately because I'd assume that if you were modeling for advantage with bigger bases on characters, you've probably got other shenanigans hidden in the conversions as well. Characters, even more than other models, must ABSOLUTELY be on the correct base size for tournament play.

 

Technically everything else is legal, HOWEVER, there is the possibility of a perhaps unintended message being sent. Sisters of Battle is an almost entirely female army. You force is meant to represent their rules but is entirely male. (so far as I can see) Regardless of your intention, it wouldn't be unreasonable for someone to assume that it was done out of some form of sexism or misogyny.

 

I'm absolutely not saying that that has anything to do with it, just be prepared for weird looks.

No different from sticking female heads on marines though, marines ARE male. But thats going WAYYY off topic so back to the rest of your post, Bases, thats a good point that I didnt pick up on until you mentioned it. 

 

 

@JB93 Whats your personal lore for your faction? They could be a Shrineworld PDF, coming from such a holy place they could have similar traits or battle tactics to the Sisters of Battle, or they could be some form of Frateris Millita thats been supplied by a very generous backer, a very devout planetary leader or high up member of the priesthood who has made himself a little bit of cash from dodgy deals, supplying them as long as they will cover his ass if he ever needs them... Theres plenty of ways you can twist it for legit in universe reasons, mind you most people should be happy if you just say 'they aint Sisters of Battle, but Im just using the codex because I like the rules and how the army plays'. I dont think it will come across as 'Hurrdedurr Misters of Battle' to any normal thinking person. 

[JB93]

 

 

Gonna tell you right now that the characters being on the wrong base size makes it not tournament legal right there. Doesn't matter if you adjust every measurement perfectly and never F it up, if the measurement is wrong, it's illegal.

 

Might get away with it in an RTT but if I was playing against that in a GT or a Major I'd call a judge immediately because I'd assume that if you were modeling for advantage with bigger bases on characters, you've probably got other shenanigans hidden in the conversions as well. Characters, even more than other models, must ABSOLUTELY be on the correct base size for tournament play.

 

Technically everything else is legal, HOWEVER, there is the possibility of a perhaps unintended message being sent. Sisters of Battle is an almost entirely female army. You force is meant to represent their rules but is entirely male. (so far as I can see) Regardless of your intention, it wouldn't be unreasonable for someone to assume that it was done out of some form of sexism or misogyny.

 

I'm absolutely not saying that that has anything to do with it, just be prepared for weird looks.

No different from sticking female heads on marines though, marines ARE male. But thats going WAYYY off topic so back to the rest of your post, Bases, thats a good point that I didnt pick up on until you mentioned it.

 

 

@JB93 Whats your personal lore for your faction? They could be a Shrineworld PDF, coming from such a holy place they could have similar traits or battle tactics to the Sisters of Battle, or they could be some form of Frateris Millita thats been supplied by a very generous backer, a very devout planetary leader or high up member of the priesthood who has made himself a little bit of cash from dodgy deals, supplying them as long as they will cover his ass if he ever needs them... Theres plenty of ways you can twist it for legit in universe reasons, mind you most people should be happy if you just say 'they aint Sisters of Battle, but Im just using the codex because I like the rules and how the army plays'. I dont think it will come across as 'Hurrdedurr Misters of Battle' to any normal thinking person.

So the lore was in idea I had when I was still just reading novels and hadn’t got back into the hobby properly. It’s a long one so hope I don’t bore you.

 

So here goes…

 

The army is lead by an inquisitor of the ordo Excorium (deal with Exterminatus)- this came about as a like the inquisitor idea but didn’t want to do something that’s done before or at least done much.

 

In theory arrives at planets slated for Exterminatus and assesses the situation and implements the deed with support from the local forces.

 

However this chap doesn’t like waste, so will often try and salvage planets if he can. He uses several methods for this; small scale spec ops assassinations to cut rebellions off at the head; surgical strikes on key assets or defences that conventional forces can than capitalise on etc. thereby bringing planets into line without the need for total destruction.

 

However…

 

He’s a dodgy bloke. One in twenty or so planets (the more isolated and far out ones) he will write off as unsalvageable, sign off on the Exterminatus, but actually add to a growing independent empire he is building, but the administration thinks it’s destroyed and don’t bother asking further questions as no one hears from the planet again. No one really knows what for, he isn’t anti imperial per se, and he doesn’t expand rapidly or try to acheive anything specific (to the common eye) he just has a small group of worlds that owe their loyalty to him.

 

From these worlds he recruits his inquisitorial storm troopers, and hence the unique looking army.

 

I really like the alpha legion books. So I may eventually tie in some sort of alpha legion link. Again not specifying loyalist or heretic.

[9x19 Parabellum]

So first off everything has to 100% be on the appropriate base size for what it's meant to convey.

 

Secondly, what I would suggest doing is get 6 friends that play 40k, put your models out and say "this is a counts-as SoB army.  Can you tell what everything is intended to be w/o me telling you?"

 

If any of them get anything wrong, you need to re-think it.

[Emperor Ming]

Just a note on the soup with guard, I think sisters loose access to certain rules if they soup

 

Hey JB have you thought about running it all as scions with attached inquisitors? then the scions can represent inquisitorial storm troopers. 

 

Loads of scope for potential with this army concept, loads of quirky models for conversion potential, esp necromunda stuff

[JB93]

So first off everything has to 100% be on the appropriate base size for what it's meant to convey.

 

Secondly, what I would suggest doing is get 6 friends that play 40k, put your models out and say "this is a counts-as SoB army. Can you tell what everything is intended to be w/o me telling you?"

 

If any of them get anything wrong, you need to re-think it.

[JB93]

Great suggestion, I’ll get them checked in person, and everything apart from the four characters is on the right base. That was just so when I was just making a thematic army they stood out a bit, but that can be rectified easily.

 

@emperorming

 

My only reason for the split was the image of the models. The Van Saar look like fast reaction troops, where as the palanite look more ponderous; not as heavy as marines but different to the Van Saar.

 

I’ve read all the rules and becuase I’ve limited myself quite thematically with the sisters, losing their faction bonuses isn’t a massive issue, but I quite like the durable back line feel of a mainly sisters army, and a fairly seperate sort of emergency scion detatchment to put our fires and clinch objectives. But I’ll look into an all scions force. The only issue is how I would represent the heavy weapon squads

[Emperor Ming]

Heavy weapons teams could be in a sep guard detachment. However if your familiar with sisters rules, it could be best to stick to what you know, otherwise that's a pile of rules

 

After looking at the pics again, should be super easy to rebase your palatine to a 32mm, then you case use your model rather than having to have a stand in?

[JB93]

Heavy weapons teams could be in a sep guard detachment. However if your familiar with sisters rules, it could be best to stick to what you know, otherwise that's a pile of rules

 

After looking at the pics again, should be super easy to rebase your palatine to a 32mm, then you case use your model rather than having to have a stand in?

Yeah, the palatine and the two tenpestor primes can easily go down to 32 and 25 respectively. I’m going to grab a last box of subjagators to build (pretty much straight out of the box) as 5 celestian sacresants so that will give me a spare body to create a 32mm Canoness, I’ll probably do the same weapons and heads just not stood on a blood angel.

[Emperor Ming]

Subjugators are fantastic looking models and will be great for sacrosancts

 

The sector imperialis bases are great for 32mm model armies like sisters, 60 in a box for around £20. 

[JB93]

Luckily becuase of the combination of bases I have needed I have a lot left lying around from the Necromunda box with all three base sizes, plus all the 25 mm I didn’t use for the palanite. I’ve gone ahead and rebased the three a can already

[Emperor Ming]

Are you planning on getting any of the inq models? I used to use Karamazov as a penitent engine before the base size changes   he's still a fantastic model, shame his actual rules are crud:P

 

Are you planning on having an attached inquisitor to your force? 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Emperor Ming

[JB93]

I’m quite tempted to not have a model. I like the idea that the inquisitor himself doesn’t bother with the battlefield, he’s more of an overseeing back on the ship kind of guy. But I was toying with the idea of a converted van Denst (or whatever the aos witch hunter is called) as an inquisitor but in the fluff he is one of the inquisitors senior assistants who is sent on missions

[JB93]

From a fluff stand point, I uploaded some pictures to that gallery of a converted ridgerunner I made. No idea what I’d run it as and I probably won’t bother, as I don’t like the idea of buying and painting loads of vehicles; but it’s so lightly armed and armoured I imagine anything I could proxy it as would want to be taken in big group.

 

But the fluff is that the first planet he fake destroyed and ‘liberated’ from imperial records, produces these light recon tanks on a large scale, and he has syphoned off production and sells them to local imperial planets for their armies and that’s how he funds his very professional personal army.

[Dr. Clock]

Sweet army!

 

From a 'non-casual' perspective, I don't think 'full counts-as' armies are a great idea when you are also mixing factions. My advice would be to use only one codex... or things like Inq that can be added without taking separate detachments that foul your faction/sub-faction special rules

 

All of your units would be fine as Scions/Guard or Novitiates/Sisters from what I can see... So I'd pick one of those lanes and lean in. If things have to hop back across the Codex line, I might recommend Crusaders instead of Sacrosancts, and Retributors dropping to 'melta scions'? Going the other way you'd just have a heap of Novitiates which could get kind of interesting... and you could consider converting some of them to combat kit even up to Repentia, for instance.

 

I'll also just put in a quick nudge toward AdMech for 'heavier than guard but lighter than Sisters' potential. Add another lascannon and Ridgerunner-as-Ballistarii is probably okay (although way shorter).

 

I know that a base resize will help, but for new opponents I'd avoid going across a heap of books in addition to 'none of these kits even have 40k rules'.

 

Congrats on a cool collection; interested to see where this goes.

 

The Good Doctor.

[JB93]

Thanks for the insight,

 

I guess I really underestimated the issues I’d come up against (And that’s not a dig).

 

I’m my head it’s really simple becuase it’s one army using four or five datasheets and another Patrol (scions) that only uses three, two of which (command and scions) are identical. But I’ve been thinking about it a lot so it’s naturally not confusing to me. So it’s really helpful having it pointed out to me that multiple codexes and different ranges is actually quite confusing.

 

Obviously they have been sat on my desk and I’ve been modelling and painting them so much that the proxies seem much more logical and obvious to me than anyone else.

 

So really appreciate the feedback

 

 

I think I’d be tempted to keep them seperate in that case. There’s nothing stopping me expanding both detatchments to armies separately over time. And if I get an inquisitor model he can drop into whichever I decide to field. And they can be a combined narrative force when I want them to be for casual gaming

[Emperor Ming]

It can be confusing, I'm confused just thinking about it, there's the guard codex, the ordo tempests rules in the psychic awakening book, then the sisters dex. I don't even know where the current inquisition rules are then the sisters supplement's

 

But I would also say, if that's what you wanna do go for it! understanding 40k isn't easy anyway and converting stuff can be superfun

[JB93]

I totally get that. I think I’ll have to have a good long think about it. I’d I’d got back into the hobby desperately wanting to play competitive games I’d obviously given it more thought. But I don’t regret not doing so, It just so happens that midway through making models following the rule of cool, I became interested watching battle reports and the like.

 

I like that the souping limits certain things. For example, thematically speaking, I like that I don’t get acts of faith. As that’s not part of thier lore, that they get divine intervention or anything like that. they are just soldiers that happen to suit the sisters profiles and weapons options, so they won’t play like a pure sisters army.

[Dr. Clock]

 

 

I think I’d be tempted to keep them seperate in that case. There’s nothing stopping me expanding both detatchments to armies separately over time. And if I get an inquisitor model he can drop into whichever I decide to field. And they can be a combined narrative force when I want them to be for casual gaming

Totally! In principle both 'armies' work fine on their own merits, and if you have a close group and your opponents have time to learn the intricacies of the individual builds/lists then using both at the same time once people wrap their heads around it could be great fun. At the same time you could try 'one or the other' as described earlier and see if one 'feels better' for your own strategic style overall before choosing which to focus more on. TBH Battle Sisters and Scions base units have roundly similar playstyles in some senses, but with a Sisters build you can lean into melee, or if you go Guard it becomes more about numbers overall... 

 

I have definitely played 'fluff soup' with mixed AdMech and Guard an AdMech + Knights a few times while I was building my AdMech up to 2k on its own; my group is so small and casual that we do allow sub-faction bonuses to apply if you're Battleforged or 'thematic enough'...

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.