SoT book 7: Echoes of Eternity - Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[Scribe]

Seems a rare miss on Kargos from ADB.

[Old-Four-Arms]

 

The Dramatis Personae overview for the Traitors in The End and the Death is going to be really short..

[Scribe]

9 hours ago, Old-Four-Arms said:

 

The Dramatis Personae overview for the Traitors in The End and the Death is going to be really short..

As it should be.

[Angel_of_Blood]

19 minutes ago, EnsignJoker said:

Wonder what the cover medal logo will be on the limited edition. 

Eye of Horus and the Aquila, for volume 1 and 2 respectively. Or vice versa. 

[Moonreaper666]

23 hours ago, Old-Four-Arms said:

 

The Dramatis Personae overview for the Traitors in The End and the Death is going to be really short..

Not really... Here are my predictions

Traitor Primarchs:

-Horus, Omegon (Not on Terra) 

Spoiler

Mortarion (hunting Garro and Keeler)

and Fulgrim

Death Guard:

-Typhus, Necrosius and Vorx

Thousand Sons:

-Ahriman, Blademaster Sanakt and Amon

World Eaters

Spoiler

Khârn and Kargos, both revived by Khorne. Also Lotara Sarrin who may become Kossolax the Foresworn or 40k's version of Valkia the Bloody

Word Bearers:

-Erebus (hunting Olly and John), Kor Phaeron (on Sicarius) plus the current leader of the WB on Terra

Emperors Children:

-Lucius, Fabius Bile and Eidolon (they won't stay dead!)

Sons of Horus:

-Abaddon, Drecarth, Devram Korda and Falkus Kibre

Traitor Blackshields:

-One POV character

Night Lords:

-Current leader after the Painted Count left Terra back in the Second Siege Novel

Iron Warriors:

-Current leader on Terra as well as an Obliterator

Alpha Legion:

-POV character

Dark Mechanicum:

-Kelbor Hal, Lukas Chrom, Inar Satariel and Urtzi Malevolous

Lost and Damned:

-One POV character each for Beastmen, Cultists and Traitor Guard

Daemons:

-Doombreed, Ingelthel (Not on Sol System) and Be'lakor

-4 Greater Daemons on the Vengeful Spirit, one for each Chaos God. Probably named ones.

-Some kind of unique Undivided Daemon attacking Eternity Gate

 

Yeah, the Traitors still had BILLIONS of troops on Terra, on Mars and in space! Plus Hundreds of Thousands of Traitor Astartes still alive!!!

[DarkChaplain]

Quote

Mortarion (hunting Garro and Keeler)

Have you perchance missed that Mortarion was banished in Warhawk and Garro isn't even WITH Keeler at this point - Loken is - and Nathaniel is getting a novella to wrap him up? Why the hell would this be in The End and the Death?

I was going make more notes on your list, but my god, please, just read the books already. It's wishlisting without any basis in what's actually been written or set up.
 

Quote

Yeah, the Traitors still had BILLIONS of troops on Terra, on Mars and in space! Plus Hundreds of Thousands of Traitor Astartes still alive!!!

 

Come on. This is just plain "copium" at this point... If anything, Echoes of Eternity underlines just how incredibly screwed the Traitors are

Edited September 13, 2022 by DarkChaplain

[Sothalor]

1 hour ago, DarkChaplain said:

If anything, Echoes of Eternity underlines just how incredibly screwed the Traitors are

Mild counterpoint (bearing in mind I'm only partway through Echoes of Eternity, thanks GW shipping) - isn't EoE highlighting how screwed everybody is?

From the very first chapter it goes out of its way to describe the catastrophic effects of the war on the very planet.

The loyalists are losing defense strongpoints and fallback positions at a rate beyond anybody can keep track of. Entire chunks of the map are going dark with few or no survivors. They're running out of room, out of time, out of hope. There's nowhere to go and they know it.

The traitors are losing themselves in the path of glory. That was the whole point about Chaos that authors like John French and ADB have been trying to make during the Heresy. It's not a nice, neat matter of "I take Mark of Khorne and gain +1 Strength" or "Hurr durr Grandpa Nurgle makes me hard to kill." Falling to Chaos is a spiritual reality in this setting, a metaphysical surrender that :cuss: your soul such that you totally lose yourself.

Nobody 'wins' the Heresy. That's the point - it kicks off ten thousand years of species-wide madness, total ideological zealotry, lost knowledge, stagnation, and forever war.

[DarkChaplain]

Correct, of course. But we're far past the point of the traitors having "BILLIONS" of troops left to throw into the grinder, or "hundreds of thousands of traitor astartes". Even if they did have those wildly inflated numbers left, they're not remotely coordinated enough to do the kinds of things Moonreaper wishes them to. To him, those gameplay buffs might as well be all there is to Chaos.

No downsides, just power-ups that make them into unkillable murdermachines that kill TRILLIONS of innocents because it's cool.

I'm not sure he's read Echoes yet, or just goes by spoiler cliffnotes again, though.

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Sothalor said:

Nobody 'wins' the Heresy. That's the point - it kicks off ten thousand years of species-wide madness, total ideological zealotry, lost knowledge, stagnation, and forever war.

This should be a forever reminder to everyone, for 30K AND 40K.

There is not supposed to be a winner, except the gods of entropy and madness that are the underpinning of the entire SETTING.

Nobody wins, everyone wallows in ignorance, and everyone dies.

The POINT.

[Moonreaper666]

38 minutes ago, Scribe said:

This should be a forever reminder to everyone, for 30K AND 40K.

There is not supposed to be a winner, except the gods of entropy and madness that are the underpinning of the entire SETTING.

Nobody wins, everyone wallows in ignorance, and everyone dies.

The POINT.

Chaos did win in End Times and every since the introduction of the Great Rift and Ynnari, certain aspects of Fantasy are being inserted into 40k

Ynnari retconned Chaos. Chaos Daemons did fight in the War in Heaven, implied to make Drach'nyen look weak by comparison

Billions died in Solar War. In Perturabo's chapter during Mortis it is described that he deals with the logistics of moving millions of people just in that book alone. He's not responsible for the Death Guard and their allies' logistics in landing their forces!

Surprised that Billions of Imperial citizens are still alive.

Pretty sure in the Old Lore the Traitors did retake the Lion Gate Spaceport from the decimated White Scars

Clearly I'm the ONLY ONE that knows another Siege Novella is coming! Involving Garro, Keeler AND MORTARION!!!

I have read Echoes of Eternity which implies that the Blood Angels' numbers at the start of the Siege are much larger than during the Great Crusade. Also implies that the World Eaters outnumber the BA especially during EoE.

Don't think Horus disabled the shields this time around, something else did. Daemons are going to reach the Throne much faster than Guilliman reaching the Vengeful Spirit!

(Lotara and the Conqueror alone can delay Guilliman for a day or two. Dark Mechanicum fleets can delay Guilliman for over a week!)

Besides, should the Traitors and Daemons retake (or destroy) the Astronomicon Guilliman will never make it in time

The Traitor Titans are still in play. Dis Irae alone could blow holes in the Eternity Gate.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Moonreaper666

[Roomsky]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Horus pulls some necromancy on the Sons of Horus - would solve the Kyber situation, is feasibly something Chaos can do, and would make things infinitely more dire + replenish his forces. Has the bonus effect of letting characters like Marr get the day in the limelight they deserve after Saturnine.

[Moonreaper666]

3 hours ago, Roomsky said:

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Horus pulls some necromancy on the Sons of Horus - would solve the Kyber situation, is feasibly something Chaos can do, and would make things infinitely more dire + replenish his forces. Has the bonus effect of letting characters like Marr get the day in the limelight they deserve after Saturnine.

You mean like that one episode in Game of Thrones?

Saturnine explicit has Falbus Kibre be either Corrupted/Blessed or be a Daemon (which explains how he comes back from death to be in the Black Legions)

Chaos Gods have only one restriction in reviving the dead. They very rarely revive dead mortals because they don't want to or care enough. (One of the reasons the Ynnari can't invade Slaanesh's realm to steal the sword is because Slaanesh will revive all her mortal minions immediately as many times as neccessary to stop them)

That is why Khârn and 

Spoiler

Kargos

will both show up in the Final Siege Novel

How much of a necromancer is Typhus? Because he will be in the final novel alongside Ahriman, Lucius, Erebus, Abaddon and Bile. Maybe Typhus, Bile and Ahriman together COULD revive one or more Chaos Champions

I doubt Marr would be revived compared to Aximand. Perhaps Aximand becomes the Cursed Swordmaster, Mourn-it-All possessed by a Daemon.

Horus doesn't need to drop his shields. Daemons can destroy the Throne or Astronomicon much faster than Guilliman arriving

Even when Guilliman arrives he still has to deal with the Conqueror and the Dark Mechanicum fleets and Space Daemons and Warp Anomalies. He won't be reaching the Vengeful Spirit anytime soon.

A Greater Daemon like Ka'Bandha can easily and quickly kill Corswain and his Dark Angels to recapture or destroy the Astronomicon

[DarkChaplain]

Kibre I could see, Marr I can't. Kibre has the benefit of having something daemonic in him last we saw, and we know this'll be the case in Talon of Horus. Even though Abaddon wouldn't know about this being a thing until then, and he'd certainly know about his untimely demise in the Siege narrative.

Tybalt Marr, though? He's too much of the straight shooter, and has spent a lot of time away from the main fleet, which probably limited his exposure to the full brunt of corruption.

Either way, though: I'd hate for a large revival coming out of nowhere. If Horus could do that, he'd probably start with Maloghurst (who he seemingly hasn't even understood is dead yet, going by Echoes), but one way or another, it'd cheapen the deal. Tormageddon I could see reincarnating considering his nature, though... but if he's brought back, I want Loken to bring him True Death the way he's sworn back in Luna Mendax.

Legion grunts, though? Please, no. Keep the Vengeful Spirit a daemonic nightmare realm the way glimpses from Blood Angels in the grips of the Black Rage have shown us in various pieces. The ship should hold no more than a token group of Sons of Horus at this point (Argonis, Abaddon, some elites), but the bulk of the Legion should've headed to the surface already, keeping the pressure up, forcing the Emperor's hand, threatening the Eternity Gate and heading for Malcador (and probably Vulcan).

I am still ticked off that we've seen nothing of Fulgrim since Saturnine, and Lorgar hasn't even made the attempt to return to Terra, despite claiming authorship of the whole thing. Yes, he got humbled in Slaves to Darkness, but he's still missing his ascension and was supposed to be there.
And don't even get me started on Kor Phaeron, who has been at Sicarus for almost the entire Heresy, after buggering off from Calth. The Macragge's Honour is also stuck in plothole town - it is supposed to be stranded in the warp, not part of Guilliman's group, but at the same time it's apparently carrying his foster mother Euten, who was still on Macragge when the ship vanished, but also part of that group by the time we last saw it.
We've also not seen Yasu Nagasena in years, huh? And here I thought we'd see the actual establishing of the Inquisition, not just the Interrogators, before the end. Nagasena is the bloke who contributes the idea of the Inquisitorial Rosette to the deal, even as the Interrogators are a conceptual prototype. At least that's what McNeill set up ages ago.

But... I have little hope of these things to actually be addressed or even in the book(s). We'll be treated to a lot of Perpetual shenanigans, "Alpharius" revealing himself to be Omegon, either Cyrene/Actae or Kat being Morgiana, Basilio Fo and Valdor setting up Bequin and the Vengeful Spirit will struggle for the spotlight.

Edited September 14, 2022 by DarkChaplain

[Moonreaper666]

1 hour ago, DarkChaplain said:

Kibre I could see, Marr I can't. Kibre has the benefit of having something daemonic in him last we saw, and we know this'll be the case in Talon of Horus. Even though Abaddon wouldn't know about this being a thing until then, and he'd certainly know about his untimely demise in the Siege narrative.

Tybalt Marr, though? He's too much of the straight shooter, and has spent a lot of time away from the main fleet, which probably limited his exposure to the full brunt of corruption.

Either way, though: I'd hate for a large revival coming out of nowhere. If Horus could do that, he'd probably start with Maloghurst (who he seemingly hasn't even understood is dead yet, going by Echoes), but one way or another, it'd cheapen the deal. Tormageddon I could see reincarnating considering his nature, though... but if he's brought back, I want Loken to bring him True Death the way he's sworn back in Luna Mendax.

Legion grunts, though? Please, no. Keep the Vengeful Spirit a daemonic nightmare realm the way glimpses from Blood Angels in the grips of the Black Rage have shown us in various pieces. The ship should hold no more than a token group of Sons of Horus at this point (Argonis, Abaddon, some elites), but the bulk of the Legion should've headed to the surface already, keeping the pressure up, forcing the Emperor's hand, threatening the Eternity Gate and heading for Malcador (and probably Vulcan).

I am still ticked off that we've seen nothing of Fulgrim since Saturnine, and Lorgar hasn't even made the attempt to return to Terra, despite claiming authorship of the whole thing. Yes, he got humbled in Slaves to Darkness, but he's still missing his ascension and was supposed to be there.
And don't even get me started on Kor Phaeron, who has been at Sicarus for almost the entire Heresy, after buggering off from Calth. The Macragge's Honour is also stuck in plothole town - it is supposed to be stranded in the warp, not part of Guilliman's group, but at the same time it's apparently carrying his foster mother Euten, who was still on Macragge when the ship vanished, but also part of that group by the time we last saw it.
We've also not seen Yasu Nagasena in years, huh? And here I thought we'd see the actual establishing of the Inquisition, not just the Interrogators, before the end. Nagasena is the bloke who contributes the idea of the Inquisitorial Rosette to the deal, even as the Interrogators are a conceptual prototype. At least that's what McNeill set up ages ago.

But... I have little hope of these things to actually be addressed or even in the book(s). We'll be treated to a lot of Perpetual shenanigans, "Alpharius" revealing himself to be Omegon, either Cyrene/Actae or Kat being Morgiana, Basilio Fo and Valdor setting up Bequin and the Vengeful Spirit will struggle for the spotlight.

I disagree. All plot points will be taken care off and given the end they deserve. That is why Dan divided the Final Siege Book into 2 parts!

[Marshal Rohr]

I finished it last weekend. My only review is that ADB is the GOAT. This is a great novel. 

[Knockagh]

Can someone give me a rundown of the objections to the perpetual storyline? I seem to be on my own in thinking it’s one of the most interesting parts of the heresy/siege series. I enjoy the deeper story of the emperor’s shadowy origins. Obviously we all love military sci-fi or we wouldn’t read Warhammer but is it not a richer and deeper story for the background? The lack of any thing like nearly made me give up on the heresy altogether. 
I’m not missing it from echoes of eternity as it’s just an awesome book but I definitely think it’s added massive value to the siege 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

40 minutes ago, Knockagh said:

Can someone give me a rundown of the objections to the perpetual storyline? I seem to be on my own in thinking it’s one of the most interesting parts of the heresy/siege series. I enjoy the deeper story of the emperor’s shadowy origins. Obviously we all love military sci-fi or we wouldn’t read Warhammer but is it not a richer and deeper story for the background? The lack of any thing like nearly made me give up on the heresy altogether. 
I’m not missing it from echoes of eternity as it’s just an awesome book but I definitely think it’s added massive value to the siege 

 

It is interesting, but people find its application tedious and jarring

[AfroCampbell]

On 9/10/2022 at 7:13 AM, Moonreaper666 said:

  Hide contents

Feels like the Blood Angels had at least 200k Marines while the World Eaters had 400k. Typhus probably still has more Marines than there are White Scars, Dark Angels on Terrra, Blackshields and Imperial Fists still alive

Even if the Traitors fail to breach Eternity Gate the Daemons are out in full force. Horus still has time on his side. It is more likely the Daemons get to the Throne than Guilliman getting to the Vengeful Spirit

Surprised that Belakor and Doombreed don’t get a mention

Sanginius finally deciding to stay inside and close the gate is symbolic of the post-Heresy. Sacrificing countless Imperials and planets to save a ‘lucky’ few. Only for those few to be thrown into one of innumerable meat grinders down the road

With Garro and Keeler having to deal with a vengeful Mortarion it is up to Sigismund and Fafnir Rahn to deal with Typhus

Ahriman is still at play here so the Imperial Fistd Librarians have to delay him

Legio Mortis is still in play. Dis Irae alone could breach Eternity Gate.

Nice very short cameo of Ordo Sinister

 

When was the cameo of Ordo Sinister????!!! how did I miss this 

[Scribe]

37 minutes ago, Knockagh said:

Can someone give me a rundown of the objections to the perpetual storyline? I seem to be on my own in thinking it’s one of the most interesting parts of the heresy/siege series. I enjoy the deeper story of the emperor’s shadowy origins. Obviously we all love military sci-fi or we wouldn’t read Warhammer but is it not a richer and deeper story for the background? The lack of any thing like nearly made me give up on the heresy altogether. 
I’m not missing it from echoes of eternity as it’s just an awesome book but I definitely think it’s added massive value to the siege 

 

 

I can only speak for myself.

 

1. Ol's original story was one of a guardsman, a basic, plain as day, human standing up to Horus. Now, hes as old as the Emperor, one of several (many?) eternal beings.

2. It detracts from what the Emperor is. The Emperor was, before we had things like cell phones, the sum of the spiritual power of Earth's Shaman. Yes, there were Sensai, but those came from the Emperor. Now we have all these other Powerful Beings, who are peers or at least contemporaries of the Emperor. Why? What did it add to the story of the Heresy itself?

As of this moment....nothing.

3. It was crammed into a story that didnt need it. It brought 'Modern' things into the setting, because they are somehow still relevant to beings which are over 30,000 years old.

4. Until the grand reveal, what actually is the POINT of the Perpetual arc? I honestly cannot think of a single thing it improved. We got to see Vulkan die multiple times?

 

Its honestly just one of multiple side stories that took what could have been a tight but still full series, and bloated it out to over 50 (60?) novels and 16 years.

16 years and counting, to tell the story of the Heresy and we have hardly had any decent looks at Horus himself over that entire span. If not for authors like Wraight and ADB? I would be weeping over the lost opportunity of this series.

[DarkChaplain]

I very much liked the idea of John Grammaticus, who was an "artificial" perpetual when introduced, being brought/forced back by the Eldar - even if he didn't want it. It was a concept I could buy in a galaxy that hadn't yet been torn asunder by the Chaos Gods' overwhelming influence outside the eye of terror, especially when it came from a cross-species council trying to rewrite the future.

But Oll... Oll as the oldest, first Perpetual, who has been on the Argo, was the "original Horus/Warmaster", who was the Emperor's general during the Fall of Babylon, who believes in Jesus being the son of God while being akin to one himself! and is friends with the other Perpetuals, one of which was introduced what, 3 books ago and got taken off the board two books later, after fulfilling her purpose of loredumping things that weren't necessary to be told in the first place?

And then you had retcons regarding John Grammaticus, who was supposedly there during wars in the middle east alongside Alivia Sureka, iirc from a short story, despite being an artificial Perpetual before and after that? Her being maneuvered by Malcador for some purpose just to do something else entirely to revive the bloke from the ashes by magically sacrificing herself - something that hasn't been a thing before Fury of Magnus - and the original purpose not even being mentioned? Or Damon Prytanis, the hunter dude with a personality for the bin? Or Cyrene being returned from the dead years after her demise just to become Perpetual and undergoing a complete change in character, to the point where she's unrecognizable beyond the implication that it's the same person?

The Perpetual story arc is so full of holes, so full of superfluous detail on matters that never needed explaining, while diminishing the Emperor's role and mystique in everything; it was fun to speculate that the Emperor was, say, Merlin, back in the day, and that he's always been around to shepherd humanity forward. Now we can argue if it was him who did the Merlin thing, or if it was Oll, or some other unnamed Perpetual who he once shared a room with. There are retcons even within this plotline and points where you can tell the author didn't know what to do with them anymore or how to wrap their story up.

In the end, it's been more often than not used as a vehicle by Abnett to ferry his Enuncia stuff from the distant past of humanity to his Inquisition trilogy of trilogies. It adds very little of substance to the ongoing story of the Heresy while needlessly muddying the waters, while partially setting up a "modern" 40k saga. It needn't have been told here, or at least not the way it has been. The Siege in particular has been all about getting characters from A to B, with B being Abnett's Finale so he can do the super cool thing he was planning to do with them to subvert expectations on how the story ends.

[Scribe]

9 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

The Siege in particular has been all about getting characters from A to B, with B being Abnett's Finale so he can do the super cool thing he was planning to do with them to subvert expectations on how the story ends.

And if this is how it ends, I will quite literally pull out my hair.

And I'm getting older now, that would be a terrible waste of what I have left. ;)

[Knockagh]

Ok…. So I’m getting this straight a summary of the anti position would be. Folks aren’t happy with

A. The removal of some of the mystique around the emperors background

B. The feeling that the storyline has been injected into the story when it clearly wasn’t planned from the start.

C. A feeling that the plot has been poorly executed and doesn't fit in with lore tradition.

D. It’s pointless and is only there to provide continuity from 30k to 40K.

 

 The only one I would give any support to is B. Having said that though very very little was planned at the start of the heresy and this has been a characteristic right through the saga. Honestly I don’t think there was much could be done about it as it grew like it did. Yes it definitely could have been done better but I like the way the siege feels so much more planned.

Im a, give me the background , person so I don’t want any mystery left surrounding the emperors origin. I never felt comfortable with some of the way GW did it in the past and I would be glad if they revisited it. Fully realise that they could take it in exactly the direction I don’t feel comfortable with though…..

I think not adding in continuity into 40k would be a massive mistake. The possibilities for threads are so vast. Again probably the origin junkie in me. 

 

[Ubiquitous1984]

Spoiler

During my re-listen of MoM, the Eternity Gate is featured when Dominion walks through it to enter the throneroom, before departing through the webway portal.  In EoE ADB touches upon how there are two Eternity Gates, and how the original one is the one next to the throne room. 

 

In EoE we do not see Sangunius single handedly hold off the traitors at the ‘new’ Eternity gate for the best part of a day (although I appreciate such an event may never have happened even in the old lore, and it’s probably just hyperbole).  I wonder if instead we’ll see that in the final novel(s), with the stand taking place at the ‘old’ Eternity Gate to guard the throne room itself?   

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Ubiquitous1984

[phandaal]

3 hours ago, Knockagh said:

I think not adding in continuity into 40k would be a massive mistake. The possibilities for threads are so vast. Again probably the origin junkie in me.

Hard disagree.

Tying everything together makes the setting smaller. That is not how things happen outside of Saturday morning cartoons, and instinctively we recognize that smallness when writers bring it in to a larger setting.

Edited September 15, 2022 by phandaal

[Scribe]

7 hours ago, Knockagh said:

Ok…. So I’m getting this straight a summary of the anti position would be. Folks aren’t happy with

A. The removal of some of the mystique around the emperors background

B. The feeling that the storyline has been injected into the story when it clearly wasn’t planned from the start.

C. A feeling that the plot has been poorly executed and doesn't fit in with lore tradition.

D. It’s pointless and is only there to provide continuity from 30k to 40K.

 

 The only one I would give any support to is B. Having said that though very very little was planned at the start of the heresy and this has been a characteristic right through the saga. Honestly I don’t think there was much could be done about it as it grew like it did. Yes it definitely could have been done better but I like the way the siege feels so much more planned.

Im a, give me the background , person so I don’t want any mystery left surrounding the emperors origin. I never felt comfortable with some of the way GW did it in the past and I would be glad if they revisited it. Fully realise that they could take it in exactly the direction I don’t feel comfortable with though…..

I think not adding in continuity into 40k would be a massive mistake. The possibilities for threads are so vast. Again probably the origin junkie in me. 

 

Maybe, but I dont think so.

A: We already knew. We have 'always' known. They decided to retcon things and add ambiguity, just to then start drip feeding the perpetual stuff on us.

He was born in Anatolia, the result of Earth's Shaman coming together due to the disturbance of the Warp.

B: Yeah, this is part of it. A clear injection of a certain author's desire to change up a story that didnt need it.

C: I cannot say it was poorly executed, I purposefully ignore as much of it as I can. I will say it doesnt fit with the Heresy though.

D: This part is a particular sin to me. The Heresy used to be not just History, but Myth. Its one thing to illuminate that for the reader, its another to make all these links to 40K which then just make it History. Its a down stream retcon on 40K, not that I particularly care for the direction 40K has gone anyway.