SoT book 7: Echoes of Eternity - Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[Nagashsnee]

Spoiler

1) I would say yes he is a wrath, put there to make us believe its the real lotara, sneakt author is sneaky.

2) No the white scars do it when the Khan goes down, the DG on the other hand react the opposite way and just become stunned/shocked. 

3) No and no, they are deamons and can no longer truly die, tho you could argue that Angron and Magnus died the moment they become deamons thats a  whole other can of worms. 

 

[Ubiquitous1984]

I'm so pleased that people are enjoying this book!  40klore really had me doubting myself, but every good review on here and on fb is renewing my faith in the fanbase!

[SkimaskMohawk]

I finished it up and can finally join the big boy discussion!

Spoiler

The book is good. It's a good book, in the way that some of the other entries could only hope to be. It's arguably the best book at imersing the reader in the exhaustion and disorientation of a 40k battle, while also capturing the feel of an actual siege at the end.

The pov of the titan crew and lotarra are wonderful. The relevant legion/crusade parts were fantastic. So much of the book is so good; sanguinius' speech was incredible.

But it's also odd. The structure didnt quite do it for me. The interruption of the siege for the crusade stuff honestly made me want to read more of crusade adb blood angels and less of the siege of terra. Maybe it's the fact that they were never really explored and it's a bit more interesting than "more of the siege" that we were at in that point in the book. I'm also going to say that having read the book...I'm not quite down with how the sanguinius v. Angron fight is described. Wounds don't hurt, they constantly regenerate, his "daemon energy" is topped up by the war, and he does not tire; the text tells us this. Up until the nails get ripped out of his head and he instantly dies while feeling excruciating pain. It just doesn't quite add up to me, and the fight lasted such a long time on top of that and didn't pay off with its end. 

I can also see the disconnect with saturnines "last big win". Obviously theres been equal or greater wins since then, but there kind of....had to be. The only thing that would put pressure on horus to drop the shields is internal strife. You can't have that strife when all their primarchs are kicking around and stabilizing things, so they need to die. More of an unrealistic assumption by abnett that his thing was the last big win before the vengeful spirit.

Arbitrary score: 8.75

My personal siege of terra rankings; Solar war> warhawk/echoes> mortis>saturnine>>>>>lost and the damned>the first wall.

[Osteoclast]

That was a delightful read.

 

Spoiler

Now an Amit and Revenant Legion fan and kinda want to explore the idea of a successor group in the same desperate straights, perhaps stuck in a never ending war to cleanse a Hive.

Personal theory that going up to the Vengeful Spirit was an accident caused by Horus Chaos shenanigans while attempting to teleport to the Phalanx in a breakout/escape attempt pretty clearly debunked.

I do have to admit to not quite feeling it with the Khabanda and Angron fights.

Tee is Best Girl of book.

 

[DarkChaplain]

I'm really struggling to remember if Arkhan Land was this much of an unlikeable jerk in Master of Mankind already, or if the Siege has made him so. I had a better impression of him a few books back when he learned about Zephon.

[Ubiquitous1984]

12 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

I'm really struggling to remember if Arkhan Land was this much of an unlikeable jerk in Master of Mankind already, or if the Siege has made him so. I had a better impression of him a few books back when he learned about Zephon.

By co-incidence I am re-listening to MoM right now.

He was a big jerk in that book too!  

[SkimaskMohawk]

I re-read MoM last week, and while he was a jerk, it was more of a condescending know-it-all than how he acted in Echoes

[Taliesin]

Anyone else finding that their LE has not shipped yet?

I contacted GW customer service about it today and they are looking into it....

Usually it ships on the Friday after pre-orders, or Saturday at the latest.

[Ubiquitous1984]

5 minutes ago, Taliesin said:

Anyone else finding that their LE has not shipped yet?

I contacted GW customer service about it today and they are looking into it....

Usually it ships on the Friday after pre-orders, or Saturday at the latest.

Yes, there are a few people on the BL Nutters facebook group who have reported the same problem.  Hopefully it’s just GW being slow.  We are also experiencing postal strikes in the UK, if you are UK based.  

[Taliesin]

Ok, interesting to know that others have not had their copy shipped either. I'm in the Netherlands.

[DarkChaplain]

I didn't expect Howl of the Hearthworld to be killed off so unceremoniously. A single one left of the pack by the time the book gets to them, and killed in the same chapter.

Bleak, but part of me feels like this is basically ADB axing a redundant plotline of his, so that people will stop asking about them.

[The Emperors Champion22]

On 8/30/2022 at 10:29 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

  Hide contents

Dorn was the seventh Primarch and the seventh found. Perturabo is the fourth. I am very concerned and didnt see an explanation on reddit or twitter. 

 

The only explanation i can think of other than it being a mistake, is he is referring to them not as they were found, but by order of their birth/ creation. Maybe he was the 4th one born/made?

[kamedake88]

     As usual I listened to this rather then read it. I honestly don't know where to begin but after having to re-listen to large sections of the book I can firmly say I really didn't like it. Thinking about it now it feels like I've read this book before elsewhere. People seem to love ADB and power to them but this is now the third book of his I have read where I've come away feeling off about what I just experienced. Maybe it's the inconsistent and jarring pacing that is done on purpose for effect. Either way it's a me thing since people like his work. I think I'll just stay away in the future.

[Robbienw]

Spoiler

I think Arkhan Land leaning more into the rude and brash part of his personality is a coping mechanism, due to the fact he is utterly utterly terrified.  This is how it came across to me in the book. 

 

[DarkChaplain]

I'm 25%, 2 parts, through the book now (for reference, it's almost as long as Saturnine and Mortis, and longer than Warhawk by a little bit; a quarter here is over a third of the length of each of the first three Siege novels) and have some thoughts for the time being:

 

The atmosphere is absolutely oppressive. It's grim, it's a complete mess on Terra, the hopelessness is palpable. Everybody's f'd to the max. Nobody is actually winning anything. This is great.

However, structurally, I don't think anything has actually happened to really support the narrative so far.

The first part ("Horde") is entirely devoted to the traitor PoVs.
We are introduced to Lotara in one chapter, Kargos in the next, Princeps Ulienne, then back to Kargos and his Word Bearers buddy, and finally Angron. There's not a Loyalist view in this first section of the book. It's introducing some characters, but mostly, it's documenting the state of the Siege, with even the traitors doubting what's happening.

Part two, ("A World Gone Blind"), then flips to the Loyalists. I thought this was an interesting choice at first, but... well, let's look at them:
It starts with Amit, who isn't actually the first character introduced in his chapter, instead we get a lengthy exposition of a daemon's history and manifestation. I don't know how long it is in print, but it's over 3 minutes(!) in the audiobook, in a chapter that runs under 16. It's a brilliant section in many ways, but it's saying more about the war than it does about Amit. The most we get is basically Amit still trying to refuse the notion that Daemons are real, which I don't really think is apt considering, well, Signus Prime. It's Amit walking through a broken world, and the focus is clearly on the world, not the character.

The next section actually has something happening by way of Zephon's return from the dead. We have character interactions between him and Arkhan Land as well as his serfs. It's the longest chapter so far (over double of the rest iirc) and clues Zephon in on the doom of Terra by way of a jerky Arkhan Land. But again, almost the entirety of the chapter is used on Zephon waking up, contemplating his survival and last moments before blacking out, on Arkhan Land talking around the point and Zephon eventually making to leave the dungeons to rejoin the battle. There's movement, yes, but it's again more contemplative than actually driving the plot forward. It's still very much setup.

Next we go to Rykath of Howl of the Hearthworld. There were a lot of expectations for that pack of Wolves, but... it looks like ADB didn't want to put them to more use than illustrate another lost front and the total state of the defense efforts. Rykath is the last living member, the others are dead, and he dies to a Thousand Son in the end too, out of a refusal to leave the wall. The Thousand Son immediately dies too. This entire chapter is just axing a dangling plotline - in a way that I can appreciate for sure, and would've probably made for a great short story on its own, but it leaves me with the feeling that once again ambience and hammering the point home of how bad the war has gotten is the primary purpose of this part of the book.

And again, the next section is similar. We get treated to a rad trooper of the mechanicum and an army jokester trying to survive and hurt the traitors. It's a heartfelt story, surprisingly so, but it's yet another vignette of the war that I could've found in an anthology and probably appreciated more there than here. It ends predictably with the deaths of those characters we just spent as much time with as Amit or Lotara. It illustrates the war, but whether it needed to do so here, in book 7 of the Siege, or in a Siege anthology, I'm not sure on.

Then finally, the last character is Vulkan - who again introduces us to the inner palace, the throne room, the original Eternity Gate (which I really loved being a separate thing!), contemplating the Emperor-through-time and sharing a little jest with Malcador. And then something happens that actually informs his plotline going forward: He gets a telepathic invitation by Magnus, who still refuses to see what he's become, lost to his god's whims. He leaves for the Webway, with a nicely described setpiece of Custodians and Sisters of Silence preparing for the opening of the gate. It describes the state of the halls impressively, and it gets Vulkan set towards a clear goal and conflict, rather than just "further to the Palace we go!" as with many of the traitors or loyalists so far.

Sanguinius? Mentioned, MIA, nobody knows a thing. Angron is hunting him, Land thinks he's dead or a hiding/running. Vulkan and Malcador are kinda concerned. But that's the extent of the star of the book so far. We get more of an insight into how Angron works and (no longer) thinks than the Angel of Baal. Checking ahead, it's not until Part Four that we actually get a Sanguinius PoV, and I'm not sure how to feel about that. And it's a Flashback chapter.

So narratively and structurally, at least for this first quarter of the book, I know where it's headed - deeper into the Palace, to the Eternity Gate, to where the cover artwork takes place - but I don't really relate to that goal. It's a lot of (brilliant) worldbuilding, but the narrative has so far been paper-thin. The substance is all in how the war has ground into utter depression, how it makes the reader feel to experience the last gasps of a fallen species. It's mired in death and misery, which doesn't drive forward events.

And as impressive as these setpieces are, and as much as I appreciate ADB delivering this sort of exposition and world building, giving us a clear image of how bad it's gotten on earth... I can't help but think that I got more out of Warhawk in terms of satisfaction and engagement. I think the comparison is fair enough considering both authors utilize characters or factions they've written before (or wished to write for so long). ADB creates new characters whose sole purpose is to die as an example of the war, while Wraight had a clear plot in mind. The same could be said for most Siege books.

Right now, Echoes, to me, lacks sort of direction and purpose beyond showcasing that everything has gone to and nobody is happy with it. Yes, showing that is the point, and it's done very well. But as book 7 of the Siege, I honestly expected a little more to engage me, some clear motivations on the characters' parts rather than having them meander to an inevitable goal we all are aware of. Right now I think Vulkan is the only one with a clearly laid out motivation of his own: Finding Magnus and neutralizing the threat he poses. Everyone else is just surviving or selling their lives in battle.

So... mixed feelings. I hope it'll become more straightforward in telling a story rather than perform elaborate worldbuilding as it develops further from here.

Edited September 6, 2022 by DarkChaplain

[Roomsky]

@DC

There is definitely more world building to come before things really start to come together. Some of the apparently standalone vignettes actually do join the story proper later on, and Amit and Kargos will drive a bit of plot movement in the mean time. The middle portion is mostly devoted to being the Blood Angels novel we never got at Signus, though - a double-edged sword in that it's odd placement in the overall narrative, but also sorely needed due to the gaping void left by Fear to Tread.

Broken record time, my satisfaction with the book mostly comes down to it being a very long payoff to ADB's thematic setup, even if it doesn't share many characters with his previous works. By contrast Warhawk (and to be clear, I still like Warhawk) is partially a payoff to Wraight's character work. Even when Echoes is about some new character, or unceremoniously disposing of an old one, I can still say "ah, I see what ADB was doing with that." while Warhawk brilliantly paid off Wraight's work in some chapters and was about some random other thing in others. Even Khârn v Sigismund, for all it was skillfully rendered, seemed out of place when viewing the book as a package.

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

On 9/5/2022 at 2:43 AM, Nagashsnee said:

  Reveal hidden contents

1) I would say yes he is a wrath, put there to make us believe its the real lotara, sneakt author is sneaky.

2) No the white scars do it when the Khan goes down, the DG on the other hand react the opposite way and just become stunned/shocked. 

3) No and no, they are deamons and can no longer truly die, tho you could argue that Angron and Magnus died the moment they become deamons thats a  whole other can of worms. 

 

Spoiler

At first I thought he was a wraith, up until the end when he tells the actual Lotara to "don't look at it", at which point I figured he IS real and is just being haunted by the shade, hence why he never responded through out the book, he'd be talking to the dead.

 

[WARMASTER_]

Loved this book so far - I think more than most of the siege books it captures the truly immense scale while still keeping it at the individual level 

got about 25% left so will leave a full review after I’m finished but loved it so far 
 

Spoiler

My favourite lore nugget so far is how Zephon goes on to be part of the Charnel Guard [Alan Blighs BA chapter] I love how ADB’s carrying his friends chapter on, it’s a great little tribute to Alan’s amazing work 

 

[Angel_of_Blood]

 

Don’t see enough comments about this, but I’m still loving Tachseers almost cameo like appearance in his message. So delightfully ‘f**k you’ to all those ships. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Angel_of_Blood

[Astartes Consul]

Arkhan Land really is the best written human character in the Heresy series / most of Black Library by a country mile.

Complex and both very human and horribly inhuman at the same time. 
 

 

[Angel_of_Blood]

34 minutes ago, Astartes Consul said:

Arkhan Land really is the best written human character in the Heresy series / most of Black Library by a country mile.

Complex and both very human and horribly inhuman at the same time. 
 

 

Genuinely felt so bad for him when he said “Zephon, they killed my friend. And my monkey”

[Helias_Tancred]

If you're looking for a summary and not planning on buying and reading it, but you want to know, here ya go.

 

Spoiler

The Loyalist coordinated defense has fallen apart. They are holding on separated from each other. The Khan is still out of the fight after the whipping he took beating Mortarion. Dorn is holding on in the Bhab Bastion. Sanguinius is at the Eternity Gate and the inner sanctum. The White Scars use the newly re-acquired anti-orbital guns of the Lions Gate Space port to drive the traitor fleet out of their close orbit. This book mainly deals with Sanguinius, and the loyalists in his area, and the traitor marines attacking them (World Eaters with some smatterings of other legions).  Kha'Banda comes back and Sanguinius fights him and wins. Minutes later a rampaging Angron attacks Sanguinius, they fight, and Sanguinius casts him down stone cold dead. The World Eaters go nuts at this turn of events, fully loose themselves and turn on everyone near them, so you have traitor marines killing traitor marines, and their traitor guard units. I got the idea the it threw the overwhelming traitor assault on the Eternity Gate and Inner Sanctum into disarray? At the same time a daemon incursion has breached the Inner Sanctum and its a threat as great as the one going on outside. Magnus has been down in the webway working his magicks to weaken the Emperor's psychic defense that has been previously keeping daemons out. Vulcan is dispatched to go take out Magnus. Its sorta hilarious because Vulcan is killed over and over by Magnus but keeps coming back at him until Magnus realizes the futility of the fight, and Vulcan kills him. The Dark Angel force under Corswain is still holding the mountain stronghold that houses the astronomican. Throughout the book there are scenes that make the various traitor characters realize the truth and price of their decision to align with Chaos. I liked those moments. Arkham Land gets a lot of coverage. Zephon is back and fighting. I keep asking myself where is Azkaellon? But the very best IMO is at the very end when the traitor fleet, that's in a "higher" orbit around Terra lol, intercept and block a message sent from Roboute Guiliman to Terra. It states that the entire 13th legion plus a force of Dark Angels and Space Wolves, and their combined fleets are a couple days from entering the Sol System and a week from being in the skies over Terra! Whoa lol.

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Eilio Tiberius

[Astartes Consul]

4 hours ago, Angel_of_Blood said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Genuinely felt so bad for him when he said “Zephon, they killed my friend. And my monkey”

 

I know. Tbh, Dan has pretty big boots to fill if he wants to make anything in his final book(s) as emotionally traumatising as that...

[Helias_Tancred]

5 hours ago, Angel_of_Blood said:

  Hide contents

Don’t see enough comments about this, but I’m still loving Tachseers almost cameo like appearance in his message. So delightfully ‘f**k you’ to all those ships. 

Most definitely!!!

 

[Nagashsnee]

Spoiler

Ok so ending of this book we have Papa Gs message arriving in sol saying he is days away and it is blocked by the traitors. Ok. But it would have been also received by the loyalist remnant fleet right? A fleet containing the Phalanx, 2+ glorianas, Custodes craft etc. How on earth did they fail to get the message to well earth? They have psyckers, dozens of ships big and small, some of the best vehicles and tech in the Imperium.   The thought occurred to me today and I cant really think of a good answer.