SoT book 7: Echoes of Eternity - Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[Sothalor]

"Amit" could be a play on "Ammit", the Egyptian god who weighs the hearts of the dead upon the Scales of Justice. One of her titles was "Devourer of the Dead" - that seems fitting for Amit and the pre-Sanguinius cultural norms of the IXth Legion.

[DarKnight]

4 hours ago, Sothalor said:

"Amit" could be a play on "Ammit", the Egyptian god who weighs the hearts of the dead upon the Scales of Justice. One of her titles was "Devourer of the Dead" - that seems fitting for Amit and the pre-Sanguinius cultural norms of the IXth Legion.

I can see that being an influence 

[cheywood]

Finally finished this a moment ago. I took my time with it, as I sometimes like to do when confronted with a work of incredible beauty. I’m sure others have already expressed the thoughts I have given the length of this thread, so suffice it to say that I think this is a masterpiece. It’s unique in its focus and tone, keeping things very centered on the experiential reality of the Siege for just a few characters. In doing so it perfectly captures the feeling of an empire about to be subsumed by the hell of its sentient backwash. There are single chapters in this book that contain more brilliant prose than most BL novels. In terms of storytelling ability I didn’t think ADB could grow higher in my esteem, but with this he has. 

[Moonreaper666]

I'm glad they did something different with Ka'Bandha and made Daemons much more threatening in the Siege

 

I sometimes forget just how OP Chaos Daemons can be due to not needing logistics or having any frontlines to fight. Changes which side is the one running out of time in the Siege

[Taliesin]

For those who dont follow the upcoming books thread, book 8 is now up on Amazon with a February release date.

[System Sound]

Sigh.

Spoiler

Didnt World Eaters loose all momentum when Angel Boy ripped the nails out of Angrons skull, thus banishing him. And the horde was stumbling also?

 

The shields of Vengeful Spirit are already lowered. I'm betting that Horus is baiting the Emperor to come and duel him, because he realizes that that's the only way he can still come out on top of this massive waste of a siege, since Guiliman is already knocking on the back door of Sol.

 

Oh but i forget. You keeping pushing your own narrative, without even reading the book in question. So maybe do us and yourself a favour, read the book. And then deliver something constructive that isn't "Daemons murder everyone and everything bull:cuss:"...

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by System Sound
Misspelled "horde"...

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yeah like always moonreaper doesn't get what chaos is. It's really clear that he skipped slaves to darkness and the siege books, because they go to great efforts to show that chaos magnifies the individual.

 

The positives are the power; a strong fighter gets stronger, a powerful wizard becomes more spellcastery, etc...

 

The negative is they only care about their own personal ends, which also serve to feed their patron god. They don't cooperate well, and the further they gain power, the worse it gets. The most impressive warlords are ones that are able to rally warriors past that amplified selfishness, like Abaddon or Daravek.

 

There is no military cooperation at this point. The warmachines like titans and battleships have been twisted into things that are driven by instinct. The legionaries are basically a mindless tidal wave that were infighting before angron got banished. Really, daemons are the only things left that follow a plan, and that's because they're aspects of one entity.

 

On to specific commentary:

 

Spoiler

There are defenders to stop the daemons. There's not a lot at this point, but they're there. That's why there was a scene of custodes preparing to defend the dungeon when vulkan reentered the webway. If you read the book you'd know that.

 

The traitors are a ramshackle horde. They have no coordination, much less cooperation. The series has consistently shown how the vox is failing as the siege goes on; this book reduces the armies to medieval warfare in more than one way. The legions don't have reserves in orbit; they sent them all down to break terra in time. The entire point of solar war was to show how time was of the essence. If you read the books you'd know that.

 

The breaches in the walls are super perilous to climb for titans. It took a warhound (the most nimble titan with the lowest center of mass) days to get up, and almost died twice to the debris. Also, the titans basically can't breach the walls without the reactors getting pierced like what happened in mortis. If you read the books you'd know that. 

 

There's more than just custodes left after the end of Echoes. If you read the book you'd know that.  

 

Who knows what's on the vengeful spirit? Go back to the point of needing to throw everything at terra. We do know Abaddon isn't there, since he was on the ground as of warhawk, trying to fight Sigismund. We also know that whatever's on the vengeful spirit loses. The emperor gets to Horus and wipes him out. If you read the books you know that. 

 

The traitors lose. The forces are fighting each other, they have no active leadership, they're just as spent as the imperials, they're taking planetary fire from Lions Gate, and Guilliman is in the system. The point of the siege was to overthrow the emperor, not kill him and die in exchange. They lost.

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Scribe]

Its almost as if one doesnt understand that the Palace COULD have been obliterated, if that was the goal.

 

It quite clearly is not, was not, just as it is clear one has not read the books and continues to have zero grasp of the narrative.

[Tolmeus]

At this point you do not need to hide your comments since they are no spoilers but fiction 

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

  Hide contents

Abaddon will be on the VS as he is meant to kill Loken there after the duel

 

Terminators are in the VS. Dark Mechanicum servants and Daemons as well

 

Doombreed is a crystal that Horus can use to summon him

 

Legio Mortis is still there by the Gate

 

 

Abaddon dies on terra. The one we see in the Talon series and beyond is a clone.

 

All the sons of Horus elite died beneath saturnine.

 

The only thing doombreed has done was be jewelry. He's going to suffer the same fate as every other big daemon mentioned: banished. Mortarion, Magnus, fulgrim, khabanda, angron; they've all died with ease and for no gain.

 

Legion mortis are still outside the mercury gate. They could barely deal with 1 psytitan and are afraid of the other 20 odd.

[Scribe]

38 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Abaddon dies on terra. The one we see in the Talon series and beyond is a clone.

 

[Sothalor]

Tis endlessly fascinating how people can read the same body of work and yet read entirely different things.

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

I've read most of the Siege

 

 

Press X.

 

Quote

Millions of Traitors descended on Terra in just one chapter of Mortis alone. Horus' forces outnumber the Loyalists 100k-to-1

 

Irrelevant, the planet is dead. There is no supply chain, and the vessels in orbit are also near death.

 

Quote

Horus had Billions of Guardsmen plus many Traitor Titans while there are less than 5k Loyalist Guardsmen in the Palace

 

Irrelevant, the planet is dead. There is no supply chain, and the vessels in orbit are also near death.

 

Quote

The rampaging World Eaters can't stop Legio Mortis or Dark Mechanicum ARTILLERY from blasting holes on the Gate through SUSTAIN FIRE!!! (Don't need to get close to the Gate or World Eaters to do that)

 

Irrelevant, they want the Palace, not a heaping pile of rubble.

 

Quote

Daemons have teleported into the Palace in great numbers. Some Astartes could do the same. Ahriman, Typhus and Erebus could teleport their personal forces into the Palace and kill the very few, overstretched Custodes and reach the Throne

 

Irrelevant, they cannot hold it.

 

Quote

It's only fair Plot Armor should benefit the Traitors as much as it has benefitted the Loyalists. Dis Irae (survives the Scouring) should be the first Traitor to breach the Eternity Gate. SOME of the World Eaters will pour into the Palace seeking Imperial blood to spill.

 

Irrelevant, we know the Palace stands. Nothing else is relevant.

 

Quote

Vorx can rally the Death Guard into charging inside regardless of the World Eaters to get inside the Palace. Still over a Thousand Word Bearers, plus dozens of Alpha Legion to join them.

 

Who cares? The Death Guard broke with Mortarion's banishment. They cannot hold, and the TK's are no longer engaged either. Alpha Legion? Tell me again about how united the Alpha Legion is.

 

Quote

It get's worse. The same route Ollianius uses to get into the Palace can be used by the Traitors and Daemons.

 

Not quite, but also, utterly irrelevant.

 

Quote

Fulgrim would want to be the one to kill the Emperor on his Throne. Valdor has his hands full.

 

You CLEARLY dont read the books. Fulgrim didnt even want to be there, he no longer cares at all.

 

Quote

It is implied that some of the Legions are much bigger than officially stated. Blood Angels around 270k and World Eaters around 800k. Death Guard outnumber the Scars at least 5-1 prior to Warhawk decimating both Legions.

 

And? The Traitor Legions are broken. BROKEN.

 

Quote

ADB does state there are Trillions on Terra. Hope Abnett points that out and describes how most of those Trillions have died by the start of The End and The Death and how their souls have been devoured by the Dark Gods. Ultimate hopelessness and brutality in life and in death. The truest form of inhumanity/brutality, the Grimdark art of Warhammer truly given life

 

It doesnt matter. If you read the book you would remember that they are watching Terra DIE. Trillions of what? Humans? lol

 

Quote

Surprised there wasn't a scene in which the Chaos Gods revived most of the dead as Revenant Daemons

 

If you understood what you claim to be reading, you would not be.

 

Quote

No wonder the Traitor Legions were still big even after the Scouring, they had Hundreds of Thousands of Astartes. No wonder there are still tens of thousands of HH/Scouring vets amongst the Traitors even by the time of the Great Rift

 

Citation, and relevance?

 

Quote

The Billions of Traitor Humans on Terra could have kept the Ultramarines busy for many weeks on their own!

 

Absolutely not, if you had read this, you would know.

 

Quote

The Emperor is running out of time more so than Horus.

 

What part of Echo's of Eternity gave you the impression that the Traitors were anything but a swirling tide of insanity by the end?

 

Horus wants to control a functional Terra. The only issue right now, is how does whats left even get rebuilt at all.

 

You are welcome.

[cheywood]

I’m not going to wade into specifics here, but let’s believe Moonreaper has read some of the books. Having read something doesn’t always mean you understand what you’ve read within a larger context. It’s easy to misinterpret the Heresy when you enter into it with a million pre-conceived notions and biases from poorly sourced Reddit comments and whatever horror is happening on /tg these days (or wherever one gets misinformed).

Edited November 16, 2022 by cheywood

[Scribe]

38 minutes ago, cheywood said:

I’m not going to wade into specifics here, but let’s believe Moonreaper has read some of the books. Having read something doesn’t always mean you understand what you’ve read within a larger context. It’s easy to misinterpret the Heresy when you enter into it with a million pre-conceived notions and biases from poorly sourced Reddit comments and whatever horror is happening on /tg these days (or wherever one gets misinformed).

 

Would you say reading Echo's (or hey how about Vaults of Terra) that Terra could support 'trillions' of extra military, with no supply lines, no food, no water, in an irradiated, chemical, bio, wasteland?

[cheywood]

5 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Would you say reading Echo's (or hey how about Vaults of Terra) that Terra could support 'trillions' of extra military, with no supply lines, no food, no water, in an irradiated, chemical, bio, wasteland?

Absolutely not. But I think we can both remember sitting in class listening to someone describe an impossibly wrong interpretation of something they’d just read. People aren’t always able to process what they’re consuming. That’s all I’m saying.

[Scribe]

33 minutes ago, cheywood said:

Absolutely not. But I think we can both remember sitting in class listening to someone describe an impossibly wrong interpretation of something they’d just read. People aren’t always able to process what they’re consuming. That’s all I’m saying.

 

You are a more patient soul than I. 

[Nagashsnee]

Lets be honest here logistics has never been a 30k or 40k strongpoint. But if it ever became a issue it is MUCH easier to handwave it for chaos then the loyalists. They could feast on deamon flesh, the skies could rain blood which renews vigor and strength. Horus could degree that meat is back on the menu! And they butcher all the beastmen, etc.  I imagine most legion ships that are not corrupt are doing ok for supplies, they were went to wage war for years without support, the army less so, the militia even less so, and the cultists well. Not many of them left at this point i reckon.

 

Thats without touching some dark mech bs about deamon algae or whatnot.  I will say and it is strange to say i agree with moonreapers general point of he way echoes left off i reckon Horus had a chance of cracking the inner palace in a week or so. Not a great chance but a chance. If he teleported down he could lead a major push against a already compromised position. It might have been best to not have deamons in the inner palace already but oh well.  

 

In any case things are set up in a way that BL can go forward any way they want and it will more or less make sense.

[Tolmeus]

If anyone wants to further discuss the probable events of 'The End and the Death' I would advise to create a new thread/ topic, since I could imagine that people visiting the thread 'Echoes of Eternity' would want to read about the novel 

[Cactus]

On 11/16/2022 at 12:44 AM, Scribe said:

 

 

On 11/16/2022 at 12:44 AM, Scribe said:

 

 

On 11/16/2022 at 12:44 AM, Scribe said:

The only issue right now, is how does whats left even get rebuilt at all.

This is something that intrigued me when reading EoE's decriptions of just how hazardous the landscape is. I have no interest in a Scouring series but I wouldn't mind an anthology of stories exploring post-siege Terra.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Cactus

[System Sound]

18 minutes ago, Cactus said:

 

 

This is something that intrigued me when reading EoE's decriptions of just how hazardous the landscape is. I have no interest in a Scouring series but I wouldn't mind an anthology of stories exploring post-siege Terra.

This. How do you untuck so much damage. What this novel describes is that the planet is ruined to a baren rock. Multiple times it was compared to Venus.

[Lord_Caerolion]

To be fair, they’ve also had 10,000 years to restore it to what it currently looks like in 40k. Sometimes we have the tendency to gloss over just how unimaginably vast a time-period that is, human-wise. 
we know there’s some terraforming capability still held by the Imperium, I can fully see that Terra is nigh-uninhabitable for a millennia or two, eventually returning to the somewhat-inhabitable mess that we know and love in 40k. 

[Tolmeus]

Got a tiny glimpse of that in 'Belisarius Cawl - The Great Work'

[Nagashsnee]

Another thing to factor in is some of the damage may for lack of a better word be 'spiritual'. Echoes talks about the affects that the focus of the chaos gods and the warp is having on terra and indeed even reaching into orbit.  While some/most of the damage is by the war some of it is also iteral corruption, terra is slowly going the way of the warp touched planet if not full on deamon world in echoes. With the death of horus and the rout of chaos in more then a material sense that may be lessened, allowing the Emperor/Astronomican to purify the planet to some extent. 

 

We have seen terra post siege in glimpses in other books, it still has breathable air and a full on re building is up and running ( timeframe forever). So my money is allot of what we see in echoes is the affects of chaos on the planet to a large extent.  Otherwise the Imperium ( 30k especially) has much more tech then people give it credit for.

[DarkChaplain]

You can bet that a lot of resources were spent on making Terra workable as the seat of imperial power after the Siege and throughout the Scouring. Guilliman would not have allowed anything else, and he took command for quite a while there while his brothers were doing their stuff. Dorn would've been torn between restoring it as he pledged to and going off to crusade, but he'd have supported the rebuilding for sure.

 

And while the Heresy left behind a lot of damages across the Imperium, it's not how they lost access to so much lore and technology. It's the coming millennia that did that to mankind. They'd have diverted a lot of strength to polish the crown jewel again.

 

And then we have the whole time of peace thing until the War of the Beast kicked off, where the Imperium thought the traitors weren't going to return, xenos were pretty much banished and they could live it up a little. The High Lords firmly believed in their seats never being threatened again. What better time to decorate Terra in gold?