SoT book 7: Echoes of Eternity - Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[Cactus]

@nagashneeiit was specifically the idea of lingering Chaos corruption that intrigued me. I think that there's a lot of story potential in cleansing petty demons and cults that have gone underrground (literally?) among the chemical pollution, ruined cities and political manoeuvres for power. Plus the psychic aftershocks and ripples caused by the thousands of individual atrocities. I might pitch it to one of my RPG groups as a Dark Heresy campaign.

[Nagashsnee]

7 hours ago, Cactus said:

@nagashneeiit was specifically the idea of lingering Chaos corruption that intrigued me. I think that there's a lot of story potential in cleansing petty demons and cults that have gone underrground (literally?) among the chemical pollution, ruined cities and political manoeuvres for power. Plus the psychic aftershocks and ripples caused by the thousands of individual atrocities. I might pitch it to one of my RPG groups as a Dark Heresy campaign.

 

 

Oh for sure, lots of meat left on them bones for stories/rpgs and the like. Not just terra, Mars would likely either be orbital fire or hell room to hell room fighting. In fact i would say Mars being held and molded by the Dark Mech for years is likely in a much more corrupted state then terra, and i have always wondered just how much they had to cut away to cure it.

[Ubiquitous1984]

5 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

 

 

Oh for sure, lots of meat left on them bones for stories/rpgs and the like. Not just terra, Mars would likely either be orbital fire or hell room to hell room fighting. In fact i would say Mars being held and molded by the Dark Mech for years is likely in a much more corrupted state then terra, and i have always wondered just how much they had to cut away to cure it.

It's such a missed opportunity that the DM plotline in the 30k setting hasn't been explored further.  Have we even heard one thing about Mars in the SoT series?  The Solar War was probably the book where it could have been explored best.  I guess now we'll just never know.

[Tolmeus]

4 hours ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

Have we even heard one thing about Mars in the SoT series?  The Solar War was probably the book where it could have been explored best.

 

Yes, in 'Solar War' they have mentioned the fleets of the Dark Mechanicum breaking free from the orbit of Mars and attacking the loyalist forces with all kinds of exotic (probably all heretic) weapons.

[Ubiquitous1984]

25 minutes ago, Tolmeus said:

 

Yes, in 'Solar War' they have mentioned the fleets of the Dark Mechanicum breaking free from the orbit of Mars and attacking the loyalist forces with all kinds of exotic (probably all heretic) weapons.

Thank you!  It was only yesterday that I was thinking how I really need to revisit Solar War (and Lost and the Damned) at some point.  There is much I have forgotten from both novels, due to the passage of time.  

[Nagashsnee]

On 11/21/2022 at 1:08 PM, Ubiquitous1984 said:

It's such a missed opportunity that the DM plotline in the 30k setting hasn't been explored further.  Have we even heard one thing about Mars in the SoT series?  The Solar War was probably the book where it could have been explored best.  I guess now we'll just never know.

Isnt it just, while i know some people dont like it, the Novel Mechanicum did a good job at setting up the 30k mechanicum as actually different to the 40k adeptus. It could and should have had much more focus on it then it did. But you can say that about alot of 30k factions. Still cant believe we never got a single Solar Auxilia or Imperial Army book either.  But then again BL was going to skip the titandeath so we got to count our blessings. 

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Nagashsnee

[Moonreaper666]

I still find the numbers involved to be very unrealistic and not really grandiose

 

Spoiler

100k defenders isn't even small size. More like miniscule.

 

There should have been AT LEAST 300 MILLION defenders in Echoes of Eternity! Probably closer to 900 million!!!

 

Keep in mind Horus has BILLIONS of Skitarii and Traitor Imperial Army on Terra plus Millions of Daemons

 

[Ubiquitous1984]

On 11/24/2022 at 6:20 AM, Nagashsnee said:

Isnt it just, while i know some people dont like it, the Novel Mechanicum did a good job at setting up the 30k mechanicum as actually different to the 40k adeptus. It could and should have had much more focus on it then it did. But you can say that about alot of 30k factions. Still cant believe we never got a single Solar Auxilia or Imperial Army book either.  But then again BL was going to skip the titandeath so we got to count our blessings. 

 

I actually re-read Mechanicum a few months ago and it was a lot better than I remembered!  But I more meant what was going on Mars post-Mechanicum novel.  We got a few short stories and novellas, but no real insight into what was going on from the DM perspective on Mars.  Alas!

 

And yeah, the lack of IA or SA stories is a wasted opportunity.  They would have been a nice alternative perspective on the conflict that wasn't from a super-humans viewpoint.

[1ncarnadine]

Finally finished this, way late! Loved this one. I really wish all of the Siege entries would have had as much focus as this book. It still managed to give an impression of the big picture without giving me whiplash from switching between characters. The Kargos+Inzar, Audax, Angron, and Lotara sections were perfect capstones to where the choices of the factions from Betrayer have brought them. I didn't find the crusade-era sections out of place because of the payoff via character focus, but to be fair I also skimmed some impressions here when it first came out and had a bit of forewarning. I also appreciate how ADB consistently manages to integrate Astartes, Mechanicum and Titan crew perspectives in a way few other others seem to manage as well. Good stuff.

 

My personal ranking is something like Echoes/Warhawk>Solar War>Mortis>Saturnine>>>those other two, though my issues with Saturnine are petty, and I might need to revisit the John French entries at some point.

[Nagashsnee]

18 hours ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

I actually re-read Mechanicum a few months ago and it was a lot better than I remembered!  But I more meant what was going on Mars post-Mechanicum novel.  We got a few short stories and novellas, but no real insight into what was going on from the DM perspective on Mars.  Alas!

 

 

 

Oh yeah for sure, for me the early Dark Mech should not be well dark, just excited scientists playing with new sources of energy/power ( warp) with no moral guidlines ( Emperor/Loaylist mech). Ok Mars got warp bombed into warp hell hole fast, but the other traitor Mech should have a slower descend into the kind of Magos we see in the Night Lords trilogy.

 

I always like to imagine that at a distance the difference between a loyalist 30k magos and a traitor 30k magos is practical nothing, and by the time you see the iconography ( if anything weird is even there).... Titan death did this well. 

[Moonreaper666]

On 11/28/2022 at 10:15 PM, Nagashsnee said:

 

Oh yeah for sure, for me the early Dark Mech should not be well dark, just excited scientists playing with new sources of energy/power ( warp) with no moral guidlines ( Emperor/Loaylist mech). Ok Mars got warp bombed into warp hell hole fast, but the other traitor Mech should have a slower descend into the kind of Magos we see in the Night Lords trilogy.

 

I always like to imagine that at a distance the difference between a loyalist 30k magos and a traitor 30k magos is practical nothing, and by the time you see the iconography ( if anything weird is even there).... Titan death did this well. 

 

It's been 5 years from Isstvan III/Schism to all the way to the Siege. Plenty of time to be corrupted and crazy as shown in Echoes of Eternity

 

I don't know how Guilliman is going to get past Mars and the two massive Dark Mechanicum fleets that have long range ship-killing weapons

[Tolmeus]

5 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

I don't know how Guilliman is going to get past Mars and the two massive Dark Mechanicum fleets that have long range ship-killing weapons

 

I do not know either for certain. But we do know that Guilliman will reach Terra and save what is left of humanity there.

 

Also, please keep the following reasonable arguments in mind:

 

The massive traitor fleet of Horus has lost also huge amounts of ships during the conquering of the Sol system, the depature of the Iron Warriors and now the defence weapons of the Lions Gate Spaceport.

 

Also, there is still the remaining battle fleet of the original Solar War, which includes the Phalanx and Red Tear.

 

And the least argument is that Guilliman's fleet and legion is still the biggest of all the loyalist forces. 

 

So yeah, the loyalist fleets will definetly take loses, but rest assured, they will definetly get to Terra (unfortunately, as we already all know, not quite in time )

Edited December 4, 2022 by Tolmeus

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, depending on the solar positions, Mars could be on the complete other side of the Solar System from Terra. Just because the Loyalist fleet is coming in from the system edge doesn’t mean it’s going to go right past each planet in order, just that it’ll pass through their orbital path. 
 

They aren’t guaranteed to intersect with the Martian fleets at all. We also know that the Dark Angels managed to get ships to Terra without Martian interference. Given Kelbor-Hal seems to have largely stayed out of the Siege, I think the other explanation is that the Dark Mechanicus has already largely fractured away from Horus’ side. 
 

They went into the Heresy wanting Martian independence, not because they were particularly invested in who led the Imperium, other than Horus promising them said independence. 
They’ve got what they wanted, for now, at least. They can see the tide beginning to turn on Horus, as well as what has happened to his forces over the course of the Heresy. 
 

The Martian Mechanicum could be said to be made up of 3 “factions”. 
1) Those who are die-hard supporters of Horus and his war, and these are the ones on Terra for the Siege. Notably, Kelbor-Hal is not among these. 
2) Warp-invested Mechanicus who have baulked at the corruption of the Traitor forces, akin to the Iron Warriors. 
3) “Dark” Mechanicus who just wanted independence from the Imperium, and saw Horus as a useful tool to obtain this goal. 
Jury’s out as to whether Kelbor-Hal is 2 or 3 (almost certainly 2, though).

If the Mechanicus on Mars were willing to join the wider fight instead of the local one against Imperial Mechanicus hold-outs, they’d have already done so when the Siege started. I can’t see them changing their mind now when Horus is about to get absolutely annihilated by what’s coming for him. 
Better to let the Ultramarines pass, and shore up your own defences. Take them on after they’ve bloodied themselves destroying Horus’ failed coup, maybe see if you can’t be the sole victor. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Lord_Caerolion

[Karhedron]

5 hours ago, Tolmeus said:

The massive traitor fleet of Horus has lost also huge amounts of ships during the conquering of the Sol system, the depature of the Iron Warriors and now the defence weapons of the Lions Gate Spaceport.

 

You are right about that. I think the Emperor's Children have also largely departed after they finished their slave-taking and Dorn humiliated Fulgrim.

[Moonreaper666]

5 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

You are right about that. I think the Emperor's Children have also largely departed after they finished their slave-taking and Dorn humiliated Fulgrim.

 

Emperors Children and Slaaneshi LotD have been attacking Loyalists plenty of times after Saturnine. Kargos noted that Astartes from ALL NINE Traitor Legions attacked Eternity Gate

 

Keep in mind 100k defenders couldn't have killed that many Traitors. We're talking close to a MILLION Traitor Astartes here plus BILLIONS of the Dark Mechanicum/Lost and Damned

 

Many of the Traitor Titan Legions that fought on Terra are still alive during the Great Rift. Same with Traitor Knight Houses

 

The EC force that attacked the Gate has to be at least a few thousand. More than the Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion present in EoE

 

As for Horus' Grand Armada the fleets of the Traitor Imperial Army, Emperors Children, World Eaters, Death Guard and Thousand Sons are ready to defend the Vengeful Spirit. Also a few Word Bearer and Night Lord ships.

 

Lots of Pirate and Rogue Trader ships are still present in Horus' Armada.

 

Daemons would attack Guilliman's fleet in endless waves each stronger than the last. Warp-madness would affect the Ultramarines and their Imperial Army/Navy crew as well.

 

I thin Su-Kassen has to matyr herself and the Phalanx to distract the Vengeful Spirit. The 'Phalanx' we see in the Beast Ork War could be a weaker duplicate (Not the first time Imperial Fists cover up losses. How many times has 'Archamus' died already?)

 

(Matyrdom is the main Loyalist theme of the Siege. Dan Abnett does that too in his Inquisitor novels with the original Bequin dead, replced by her clone)

 

No wonder the Ultramarines had less than 23k by the end of the Scouring! The Imperial Fists down to 5k!!!

 

(And not all Ultramarines and Imperial Fists carry the Geneseed of either Dorn and Guilliman. Silver Skulls and Soul Drinkers)

[Lord_Caerolion]

You keep saying stuff like “we know the Loyalists can’t have killed that many Traitors”, but that’s just the thing. We know they DID, it’s told to us over and over both in the setting lore and the books of the Siege of Terra series. 
The Traitors at the end of Echoes of Eternity are not a force that has thousands upon thousands of fresh troops to spare. They’re broken, and barely holding on. 
As for the Loyalists not being able to kill that many, you know how sieges work, right? The whole point of fortifications is that they make you able to take on far superior numbers without being overwhelmed. The Loyalists, throughout the Siege, have had defensive advantages. They’ve had curtain walls, they’ve had perfectly-plotted firing lines, they’ve had expertly-ranged artillery bastions, they’ve had shield protections. All of these, throughout the entire Siege series, have been shown costing the Traitors far, far more in lives and materiel to break through than it’s taken the Loyalists to hold. 
And when that defensive line finally gets breached, the Loyalists fall back to the next Dorn-crafted defence line, and the work begins all over again for the Traitors. 
I don’t know where you’re getting “100k defenders” from, the Imperial Fists alone probably were at that number at the start of the Siege, plus lets say an extra 100k for the combined Blood Angels and White Scars. You’ve then got the fact that the entirety of the Terran population was pressed into arms, which to use your terminology would have been TRILLIONS. 
This is not a war that has gone well for the attackers. Sieges very rarely do, and the Siege of Terra is no exception. 
 

Have the Emperors Children taken part in the attacks on the Eternity Gate? Sure, maybe token forces, but we’re explicitly told that they departed the Siege. Absolutely nothing shows that the EC numbered a few thousand, we just know they were there. The Iron Warriors have largely left. The World Eaters have been on the front line of every single warzone, and they have been bled dry and are broken. The Death Guard are shattered after the banishment of Mortarion, and drawing back. The Sons of Horus are in almost as untenable a position as the World Eaters, having taken just a heavy a role, but with more restraint. They’re still not in a good place. 
 

You say, correctly, that martyrdom is the Loyalists theme to the Siege, but you’re forgetting what the Traitor theme is. Implosion. The Horus Heresy has seen all the Traitor forces wormed through with weaknesses, which they tried to convince themselves was strength. The World Eaters gave themselves over to their rage, and have become unthinking animals. The Death Guard let their desperation to survive cost them everything, and are now consumed with apathy. The Emperors Children are slaves to their egos, and abandoned the entire war because it bored them. The Iron Warriors are overcome with bitterness and self-hatred, also leading them to abandon everything they’ve fought for once again. 
 

Each and every Traitor Legion is imploding in on itself, drawn into the Heresy by the whims of their Primarchs, that over time have turned to madness. They sold their souls for power, and found uncaring Gods twisting their minds and destroying everything they once were. Horus was once the greatest of the Primarchs, and now he’s a consumed husk, barely a fragment of his former self, instead only a literal puppet of the aptly-named Primordial Annihilator. 
The Legions don’t care about their wider goals any more. It was only the charisma of Warmaster Horus who bound them together, but that being is gone. Even Perturabo, Horus’ most loyal Primarch, has turned on him. Angron, Mortarion, Magnus, all banished. Lorgar, exiled in disgrace. Fulgrim, abandoned the war the moment the hand on his leash slipped and something else shiny caught his eye. Curze is trapped in temporal prison, bound to the fate he ran head-long at despite his protestations of wanting anything else. Alpharius has lost all control of his Legion, so devoted to proving his own superiority that his Legion grew beyond his control, each cell fighting for its own idealized image of the Legions goals, even as they conflict with each other. 
 

The Legions are no better. A third have abandoned every desire to continue the Siege, the World Eaters will destroy themselves against any defensive position that has souls behind it. The Night Lords only care to kill, the Thousand Sons are a dwindling force, the Word Bearers will sacrifice anyone they see if they think a Daemon will thank them for it. 
 

The Traitors may have beaten the Loyalists back, but they are absolutely, in no way, shape, or form, in as strong a position as you’re making out. 
This book series will end as we have always known. Horus’ gambit will fail, and with his death, his war will die too. The Traitors will no longer be broken, they will rout, they will flee, and be hounded across the galaxy until they reach the one haven the Loyalists will not pursue them in, the Eye of Terror. 
This will happen, because despite your protestations, despite your endless claims, Chaos is not strength. It is a literal devils bargain that gives you what you think you want, and takes absolutely everything from you. 

[Scribe]

On 12/5/2022 at 3:32 AM, Lord_Caerolion said:

It is a literal devils bargain that gives you what you think you want, and takes absolutely everything from you. 

 

Yep.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm rereading Echoes, still close to the very start and here are some lines moonreaper should probably try to reconcile:

 

Spoiler

Quote

The Conqueror’s scanners, when they functioned at all, couldn’t cut through the dust. Terra didn’t look like Terra. It looked like Venus. It choked under a similar tainted sky.

   Choppy reports analysed the clouded atmosphere. The marble dust in the air was enough to destroy any reliability with the vox

 

Quote

They probably didn’t know who’d died either; squads were scattered, the vox was down, and the dust was a great equaliser on that score, turning them all into ghosts of themselves. Who was who hardly mattered now.

 

Quote

It was a tide. Hundreds of thousands of warriors and soldiers and daemonic entities merging into a wave of god-soaked intent. Rank meant little now among the mortal castes of this horde; military cohesion had almost broken down into myth

 

Quote

Establishing a firm hierarchy was impossible without the vox, and without knowing what regiments were where; what Titan Legios had managed to haul themselves up and through the wreckage of the Ultimate Wall; what Astartes forces had assembled in the fallen districts of the Inner Palace....The names of First Captains were spoken, and their absences marked. Ahriman. Typhon. Abaddon. Embattled elsewhere or already dead? None could say.

 

It's also important to note after this passage that the observers make some assertions about things they do "know". Magnus will break the emperor's shield, and angron will kill sanguinius; these absolutely don't happen. The traitors on the ground are just drinking the coolaid but have no actual knowledge.

 

 

Quote

Other Titans retreated to their coffin-ships, resolving to airlift onto the plateau. Few met with any success, with the dust chewing through engine intakes and crippling most of the landers that made the attempt. Some unleashed their weapons on unbreached sections of the wall, melta-boring rockcrete, atomising stone and conversion-beaming holes through Rogal Dorn’s greatest defences.

   Time, time, time. It all took time. 

 

Quote

For now, World Eaters and Death Guard and Alpha Legionnaires ran before Hindarah in a ceramite flood. No gunships backed them up from above – the air-support phase of the war was adamantly over 

These are all from the first three chapters, and all of them slam the concepts of communication, army coherency, time/speed, available assets, who could do what, etc... that have been core of the many assertions. 

 

Obviously, obviously, stuff wasn't read.

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

While it's perfectly acceptable to challenge/disagree with ideas posted by fellow fraters, snarky comments aimed at the allegedly offending frater are not conducive to constructive discourse and violate the spirit of the rules of conduct of the B&C, so....

 

IXNAY ETHNAY ARKSNAY

(Nix the snark)

 

=][=

[Arkangilos]

Just finished listening to it and wow. 
I loved every bit of it. It also did everything I’ve been wanting recently.

Having not read anything since Fear to Tread (and I read that when it came out), I don’t know if these things had been done or answered but just last week I was wondering if Amit was pre-Sanguinius and wanted his background. Check.

I was hoping to see stuff regarding pre-Sanguinius BA culture. Check.

I wanted to see the reunion. Check.

It was all done beautifully, and now all I want to see is the middle period between the two cultures and to see how it was during the first years of Sanguinius. But to be honest, there are only two authors I trust with that (ADB and Haley).

 

Story wise I think the only question I have is what was happening with Raldoron as this was going down.

[lightinfa]

Are there any images of the map from the LE floating around the internet? GW has apparently forgotten to keep their Siege of Terra website up-to-date:

https://siegeofterra.com/

[63-19]

Don’t expect the map anytime soon. They sporadically update siegeofterra.com. Last update was around a year ago. The last time they fully updated the site was almost 2 years ago.

Edited December 11, 2022 by 63-19

[DarkChaplain]

I finished the rest of the novel at long last and sadly, I still don't think I liked it all that much. For all that people complain about The First Wall having "redundant" plotlines, I feel like a large chunk of Echoes could've been cut and trimmed down without affecting the book much if at all. So much stuff that would've been better off in a short story or Primarchs novella.

 

Like, I don't think much would change with the novel if you were to cut all the Lotara content and paste it into another short story, Rose Watered With Blood-style. She's so divorced from the main events of the Siege here, she's at best a PoV that provides some additional scope at the very end. Heck, one of her sections is basically just a frame to show the last council, so we wouldn't have to see it from right in the middle of it.

Then we have, for example, chapter 29, more than half of which was concerned with showcasing individual fates among both sides - characters that were just introduced for a page and removed from play. This stuff would've been better suited to a vignette-style short story in a Siege anthology we should have gotten by now. Instead sections like these (and there were plenty more throughout) bogged the narrative down.

 

That weird middle section of flashback chapters too ticked me off, because it shouldn't have been here. It has its relevancy to the Blood Angels fluff, but it's relevancy for the Siege was rather limited. Had it been part of Chris' Sanguinius Primarchs novel, or a Primarchs short story, I'd have been happier with it. As is, it interrupted the Siege for too long. It didn't help that we get the Amit/Kargos flashbacks after we are led to believe Kargos is a goner. It's only after that Amit mentions that he didn't finish the job. In my eyes, there was no point in having these two meet twice - either do the final battle as it happened, or move their duel to the pre-flashback part. Kargos coming back through plot armor didn't feel satisfying. Especially since he actually did get killed despite Khârn: Eater of Worlds mentioning him leading a warband of his own. What's with all these canon conflicts in the Siege?

 

Technically, it's a great achievement, but it really failed to draw me in through its characters and ongoing narrative. A lot of the book feels static - and even though this is a backs-to-the-wall situation, it shouldn't feel that way. There weren't enough moving cogs. Even Vulkan, who went on an actual journey of his own into the Webway, didn't actually move much. The destination was a duel that never needed to be, not after Fury of Magnus - which it even partially attempted to retcon for no good reason. There were what, three chapters about the Vulkan vs Magnus confrontation? And not short ones either. It dragged, even though their conversations were one of the book's highlights for me.
 

....and yes, where the f is Azkaellon? We've had so much setup for him, and he's nowhere to be found in the Blood Angels novel of the finale? No Sanguinary Guard? A token mention of Dorn at Bhab, that's it? Sanguinius never even thinks about or worries over Jaghatai. Raldoron is exactly as one-note uninteresting as he's ever been. Even Zephon feels... dull and faceless. There were some endearing moments of him realizing that his thralls were good people worth caring about, but in the end he passes the task of actually doing so off to Arkhan Land anyway.

 

And then there was Howl of the Hearthworld... or, well, actually there wasn't, because they all died. Oops. That really was just a throwaway chapter. Heck, I don't think we even saw Sanguinius yet by that point. Not only should this have been another bloody short story - just like the story that introduced the pack years ago! - but it also contributed nothing to the plot - just another showcase of "look how bleak this is". It's a chapter-long axing of an unwanted group of characters and a plotline that some fans kept asking about but obviously had no place in the book anymore.

 

There was honestly very little for me to cling to in terms of characters, and Land's out-of-place nature on the wall, the cynicism and surprise emotions can only go that far.

 

I get that ADB was going for the tiring grind of the Siege, the exhaustion, the fatigue, both physically and mentally, among all participants. But I don't particularly want to feel the same way reading the book. It's simply so bleak and such a meat grinder that it sucked the enjoyment out of the experience. On a prose level, it's great. It's also got great setpieces. But as somebody who is tired enough of action sections in BL novels at the best of times, this nonstop balls-to-the-walls, everybody-loses, there-is-no-hope novel might be my antithesis.

Edited December 13, 2022 by DarkChaplain

[Roomsky]

`Tis unfortunate you weren't in love with it. The Roomsky Broken Record returns to say "different strokes" once again.

 

I've always been one for the "jettison what's not working" approach. Obviously its awesome when writers can salvage a poor character or story, but that approach always gambles pumping out further mediocrity (Descent and Fallen Angels, anyone?) And I recognize this position is hypocritical of me, because I obviously defend the choice to rescue Sanguinius from the void of character he was trapped in instead of just ignoring him, but hey, I'm and ADB fan. His writing elevates what should be a mess. And I totally get the position that a bunch of Sanguinius flashbacks would be more at home in his Primarchs novel, but this is a time where that small part of me I bury to enjoy these books to the fullest leapt out and screamed "stop making me read supplemental :cuss: for the narrative gravity of this situation. A sub-series cannot make the Heresy good any more than SW Legends EU can make the prequels good."

 

But I think it's a good review, DC, and fully justifies most of your issues. Though for the life of me, I will never understand your bone to pick with Zephon or Argonis.

[Scribe]

The man can only salvage so much, its not as if he's going to write 3 books here. ;)