Ravenor Rogue LE author foreword - SoT book 8 foreshadowing?

[Ubiquitous1984]

I've just received my copy of Ravenor Rogue LE.  Apart from being an incredible design and excellent novel (seriously, if you've never read the Ravenor trilogy you must give it a try - it's one of the best BL stories out there), this version also contains an author foreword written by Dan Abnett in April 2020.  

 

Spoiler warning for those who have not read Ravenor Rogue - please do not read any further if you don't want the ending spoilt!

 

Dan responds to the criticism that he faced with how he ended Rogue, and I can't help but wonder whether he will employ this same approach when he comes to write the Emperor Vs Horus in SoT book 8.  Here is the text, and I'm interested to hear your thoughts on what this might mean for the end of the Siege and how it may play out:

 

At the risk of spoilers (if you haven't read this series before, you

may want to pick up this introduction again after you've read this

book), I want to mention the ending. Some readers voiced the

opinion that it was downbeat, or almost anticlimactic after the epic

journey to get there. I maintain that it was entirely appropriate.

 

There is such a thing as too loud, or too much. The pace at which

the series has been gathering means that logically everything has

to be bigger and more staggeringly explosive than the last…. simply

in terms of crescendo. I believe more in light and shade, in varying

the pace and magnitude, to get moments of genuine drama rather

than mere spectacle. The ending is huge, and very explosive. It

rocks a planet. But the ending proper, tying up the last loose ends,

is definitely small scale and tinged with pathos. My argument is

that, after all we've been through, could any final confrontation be

big enough or loud enough? The drama - and perhaps the credibility

- of the very end to me is more melancholy and tragic. With

universe-changing schemes thwarted and the vast set pieces done,

the final encounter is simple and human, because there is nothing

left apart from two spent adversaries who have been in opposition

for so long they are obliged to play things out to the biter end.  I

stand by it. I personally think it's a great ending. Its certainty the

ending I wanted to write, and the ending it felt was the right one.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Ubiquitous1984

[DukeLeto69]

I think the ending is pitch perfect.

 

I also think Ravenor is its own thing and SoT is its own thing.

 

Pure wishlisting but for ME the Emp and Horus should be battling in the real world while simultaneously having a philosophical argument (over a completely different time frame) within the warp. Total contrast between the two sets of scenes.

[Scribe]

I think the ending is pitch perfect.

 

I also think Ravenor is its own thing and SoT is its own thing.

 

Pure wishlisting but for ME the Emp and Horus should be battling in the real world while simultaneously having a philosophical argument (over a completely different time frame) within the warp. Total contrast between the two sets of scenes.

Agreed completely.

 

The last fight better have some of that warp weirdness going on, like Mortis had.

 

God has this series been long...

[Moonreaper666]

 

I think the ending is pitch perfect.

 

I also think Ravenor is its own thing and SoT is its own thing.

 

Pure wishlisting but for ME the Emp and Horus should be battling in the real world while simultaneously having a philosophical argument (over a completely different time frame) within the warp. Total contrast between the two sets of scenes.

Agreed completely.

 

The last fight better have some of that warp weirdness going on, like Mortis had.

 

God has this series been long...

Both Valdor and Enuncia will be important in both Pandemonium and the Final Siege Novel

 

Assuming the Final Siege Novel comes out first it would Foreshadow what will occur in Pandemonium

[Scribe]

 

 

I think the ending is pitch perfect.

 

I also think Ravenor is its own thing and SoT is its own thing.

 

Pure wishlisting but for ME the Emp and Horus should be battling in the real world while simultaneously having a philosophical argument (over a completely different time frame) within the warp. Total contrast between the two sets of scenes.

Agreed completely.

 

The last fight better have some of that warp weirdness going on, like Mortis had.

 

God has this series been long...

Both Valdor and Enuncia will be important in both Pandemonium and the Final Siege Novel

 

Assuming the Final Siege Novel comes out first it would Foreshadow what will occur in Pandemonium

Could be. I'm not at all concerned with anything beyond what Abnett writes for the Siege however.

[WARMASTER_]

I think the ending is pitch perfect.

 

I also think Ravenor is its own thing and SoT is its own thing.

 

Pure wishlisting but for ME the Emp and Horus should be battling in the real world while simultaneously having a philosophical argument (over a completely different time frame) within the warp. Total contrast between the two sets of scenes.

Part of me hopes it has the immediacy of the camba diaz fight+death scene but another part of me hopes it’s more like the sigismund vs abaddon duel where it’s through the eyes of someone else because I don’t want to know either of their thoughts first hand

[DukeLeto69]

 

 

I think the ending is pitch perfect.

 

I also think Ravenor is its own thing and SoT is its own thing.

 

Pure wishlisting but for ME the Emp and Horus should be battling in the real world while simultaneously having a philosophical argument (over a completely different time frame) within the warp. Total contrast between the two sets of scenes.

Agreed completely.

 

The last fight better have some of that warp weirdness going on, like Mortis had.

 

God has this series been long...

Both Valdor and Enuncia will be important in both Pandemonium and the Final Siege Novel

 

Assuming the Final Siege Novel comes out first it would Foreshadow what will occur in Pandemonium

Of course. That whole “meta story” has been years in the planning, making and seeding. We will see it all coalesce.

[Moonreaper666]

 

I think the ending is pitch perfect.

 

I also think Ravenor is its own thing and SoT is its own thing.

 

Pure wishlisting but for ME the Emp and Horus should be battling in the real world while simultaneously having a philosophical argument (over a completely different time frame) within the warp. Total contrast between the two sets of scenes.

Part of me hopes it has the immediacy of the camba diaz fight+death scene but another part of me hopes it’s more like the sigismund vs abaddon duel where it’s through the eyes of someone else because I don’t want to know either of their thoughts first hand

Probably both. Loken will witness Horus striking down the Emperor before he fights and is killed by Abaddon.

 

Hopefully, Abaddon's Mark of Chaos Ascendant activates

 

Imagine if Valdor has the same Mark of Chaos Ascendant in Pandemonium. Shows how far he's really fallen

[DukeLeto69]

 

 

I think the ending is pitch perfect.

 

I also think Ravenor is its own thing and SoT is its own thing.

 

Pure wishlisting but for ME the Emp and Horus should be battling in the real world while simultaneously having a philosophical argument (over a completely different time frame) within the warp. Total contrast between the two sets of scenes.

Part of me hopes it has the immediacy of the camba diaz fight+death scene but another part of me hopes it’s more like the sigismund vs abaddon duel where it’s through the eyes of someone else because I don’t want to know either of their thoughts first hand

Probably both. Loken will witness Horus striking down the Emperor before he fights and is killed by Abaddon.

 

Hopefully, Abaddon's Mark of Chaos Ascendant activates

 

Imagine if Valdor has the same Mark of Chaos Ascendant in Pandemonium. Shows how far he's really fallen

Interesting. You think Valdor has fallen to Chaos?

 

I think the exact opposite. He is doing the bidding of the Emp and continuing the good fight.

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

 

I think the ending is pitch perfect.

 

I also think Ravenor is its own thing and SoT is its own thing.

 

Pure wishlisting but for ME the Emp and Horus should be battling in the real world while simultaneously having a philosophical argument (over a completely different time frame) within the warp. Total contrast between the two sets of scenes.

Part of me hopes it has the immediacy of the camba diaz fight+death scene but another part of me hopes it’s more like the sigismund vs abaddon duel where it’s through the eyes of someone else because I don’t want to know either of their thoughts first hand

Probably both. Loken will witness Horus striking down the Emperor before he fights and is killed by Abaddon.

 

Hopefully, Abaddon's Mark of Chaos Ascendant activates

 

Imagine if Valdor has the same Mark of Chaos Ascendant in Pandemonium. Shows how far he's really fallen

Interesting. You think Valdor has fallen to Chaos?

 

I think the exact opposite. He is doing the bidding of the Emp and continuing the good fight.

There can only be one Chaos ascendant at a time I’m pretty sure

 

Ive got to agree I don’t think Valdor has fallen to chaos, I don’t think he can

 

My running theory is he hates what the imperium has become, believing the emperor is a god is what started the heresy and it’s everything the emperor was fighting against so he’s trying to tear it all down because it’s what he thinks the emperor would want….that or he believes as the Emperor is a perpetual and if he frees him from the throne he can die and be reborn [less likely though as Dan Abnett kind of let slip the emperor is in a constant death and rebirth cycle on the throne]

[DukeLeto69]

 

 

 

 

I think the ending is pitch perfect.

 

I also think Ravenor is its own thing and SoT is its own thing.

 

Pure wishlisting but for ME the Emp and Horus should be battling in the real world while simultaneously having a philosophical argument (over a completely different time frame) within the warp. Total contrast between the two sets of scenes.

Part of me hopes it has the immediacy of the camba diaz fight+death scene but another part of me hopes it’s more like the sigismund vs abaddon duel where it’s through the eyes of someone else because I don’t want to know either of their thoughts first hand

Probably both. Loken will witness Horus striking down the Emperor before he fights and is killed by Abaddon.

 

Hopefully, Abaddon's Mark of Chaos Ascendant activates

 

Imagine if Valdor has the same Mark of Chaos Ascendant in Pandemonium. Shows how far he's really fallen

Interesting. You think Valdor has fallen to Chaos?

 

I think the exact opposite. He is doing the bidding of the Emp and continuing the good fight.

There can only be one Chaos ascendant at a time I’m pretty sure

 

Ive got to agree I don’t think Valdor has fallen to chaos, I don’t think he can

 

My running theory is he hates what the imperium has become, believing the emperor is a god is what started the heresy and it’s everything the emperor was fighting against so he’s trying to tear it all down because it’s what he thinks the emperor would want….that or he believes as the Emperor is a perpetual and if he frees him from the throne he can die and be reborn [less likely though as Dan Abnett kind of let slip the emperor is in a constant death and rebirth cycle on the throne]

Hard to know if this really still requires spoiler tags but just in case...

 

back in the extended period of time between Pariah and Penitent when many of us were speculating about who The Yellow King was, my theory was The God Emperor himself. Ie while his physical body was locked in the Golden Throne, his mind was still free and battling in the warp.

 

Well it now looks like TYK is Valdor, though we could still see a bait n switch, but with the implications in Guy Haley’s Dark Imperium trilogy that TGE is alive and “interfering” or at very least “waking up” (I haven’t read pt3 yet so this is what I took from spoilers) it could mean Valdor is still doing his masters bidding in the Immaterium! We will find out in Pandaemonium!

Edited March 17, 2022 by DukeLeto69

[Moonreaper666]

Pandemonium and Dan's Final SoT Novels will have reprecussions

 

But they are going to affect the post-Rift Imperium

 

Valdor's plan is destined to fail (the dude is fighting THREE Imperial Protagonists, the Eldar Craftworlds and pretty much a lot of Traitors)

 

My guess is that Valdor's betrayal of the Imperium will negatively impact relations between the Custodes and Inquisitors even more leading to a lot of blooshed

 

The loyalty and reliability of the Custodes is now put into question

[Scribe]

The loyalty and reliability of the Custodes is now put into question

Any book worth it's ink, should have the Custodes be the only ones left truly loyal to the idea of the Imperium.

 

40Ks Imperium is a lie to even itself.

[Knockagh]

I desperately hope that Valdors loyalty remains intact in the traditional sense. These guys are machines of loyalty and should be incapable of turning on the emperor or the imperium. I would rather Dan brings back and develops the star child storyline than that. Anything but a chaos tinged custodes.

[Moonreaper666]

I desperately hope that Valdors loyalty remains intact in the traditional sense. These guys are machines of loyalty and should be incapable of turning on the emperor or the imperium. I would rather Dan brings back and develops the star child storyline than that. Anything but a chaos tinged custodes.

Even if it's a side-effect of Enuncia? The ultimate power at a cost?

[DarkChaplain]

Enuncia isn't some sort of Chaos Dictionary - it's supposedly the language of creation. It's probably much more closely linked to the Old Ones than Chaos. It's not psychic (read: warp-infused) magic.

The "cost" of Enuncia is also not as clear cut as selling your firstborn to the devil. Of course, any sort of power has the potential to corrupt - but the traditional taint of Chaos is absent in this case; doubly so when we're talking about Custodes.

[DukeLeto69]

Pandemonium and Dan's Final SoT Novels will have reprecussions

 

But they are going to affect the post-Rift Imperium

 

Valdor's plan is destined to fail (the dude is fighting THREE Imperial Protagonists, the Eldar Craftworlds and pretty much a lot of Traitors)

 

My guess is that Valdor's betrayal of the Imperium will negatively impact relations between the Custodes and Inquisitors even more leading to a lot of blooshed

 

The loyalty and reliability of the Custodes is now put into question

I don’t buy this. Doesn’t mean it won’t happen but I don’t see it.

 

We know Abnett had to get permission from the High Lords of Games Workshop to do whatever he is doing. That isn’t just Valdor but the implications of what he is doing.

 

I think the board is being set for another potential schism in the Imperium, another civil war. There are some excellent thoughts from various folks on this in the Godblight thread.

 

But I see Valdor as ever loyal to the Big E but perhaps the Big E not being happy with the state of the Imperium when he “wakes up”!

 

So strictly speaking Valdor and Custodes remain utterly loyal to the thing they should be, The Emperor, rather than the institutions that have grown up in the absence of the Emperor.

 

Of course Abnett could totally curve ball us!

 

I think we must never lose sight of the primary purpose of GW, to sell product which is mainly plastic soldiers and equipment. The “permitted story” from BL authors will ultimately be in service to that purpose.

[Petitioner's City]

Please remember this book is "in the past" - I think it's still set before the Sabbat Crusade?; If so, it doesn't connect post rift - at least not as written.

[DukeLeto69]

Please remember this book is "in the past" - I think it's still set before the Sabbat Crusade?; If so, it doesn't connect post rift - at least not as written.

I am suspicious of warp time dilation shenanigans.

 

I reckon (probably totally wrong) that the actions of Valdor and team will enable the Great Rift, the Psychic Awakening and the actual awakening of the Big E. ie it sets the wheels in motion somehow.

[Petitioner's City]

I don't think so - but it's lovely you all think this. I just don't think the text - or the Eisenhorn series in general - which while inspired by a tie-in to a specific game, never really has served the needs of the studio and serves a different need from the "modern" setting. 

 

Also BL's purpose isn't as reductive as supporting the selling of miniatures - that's a critical misunderstanding of an IP, which is the central product. Warhammer is more than its miniatures, and its commercial and creative potency isn't just (or - for some customers - even linked to) the miniatures. I think that it's essential to understand that miniatures are the central part of GW's output (and its most lucrative), its IP is diverse and meaningful beyond its plastic and resin outputs & GW are equally selling that. If GW was just a miniature company, or one which didn't have interest in the variety and depth of its IP, I'd think we'd see a much more shallow output by GW (e.g. the miniatures sold by Reaper, etc) - miniatures without a strong sense of world-building, rather than a very solid visual - and fictional historical - sensibility.

 

I do agree that some BL books are tie-ins that support releases, but many others barely relate to the game, if at all - instead the core thing they support always is the IP, which is accessible and maintained through the company's miniatures, source books, literary books, licenced video games, audio tales, commissioned art works, licensed RPGs, and so on. 

 

This is an IP as deep and diverse as Star Trek, Star Wars, etc. Just as the TV shows and/or films are the dominant media of those IP, their books, games, comics, arts, etc, also live independent lives that support the IP "behind" all the media.

 

Anyway ramble over :)

[DukeLeto69]

I don't think so - but it's lovely you all think this. I just don't think the text - or the Eisenhorn series in general - which while inspired by a tie-in to a specific game, never really has served the needs of the studio and serves a different need from the "modern" setting.

 

Also BL's purpose isn't as reductive as supporting the selling of miniatures - that's a critical misunderstanding of an IP, which is the central product. Warhammer is more than its miniatures, and its commercial and creative potency isn't just (or - for some customers - even linked to) the miniatures. I think that it's essential to understand that miniatures are the central part of GW's output (and its most lucrative), its IP is diverse and meaningful beyond its plastic and resin outputs & GW are equally selling that. If GW was just a miniature company, or one which didn't have interest in the variety and depth of its IP, I'd think we'd see a much more shallow output by GW (e.g. the miniatures sold by Reaper, etc) - miniatures without a strong sense of world-building, rather than a very solid visual - and fictional historical - sensibility.

 

I do agree that some BL books are tie-ins that support releases, but many others barely relate to the game, if at all - instead the core thing they support always is the IP, which is accessible and maintained through the company's miniatures, source books, literary books, licenced video games, audio tales, commissioned art works, licensed RPGs, and so on.

 

This is an IP as deep and diverse as Star Trek, Star Wars, etc. Just as the TV shows and/or films are the dominant media of those IP, their books, games, comics, arts, etc, also live independent lives that support the IP "behind" all the media.

 

Anyway ramble over :)

Don’t fully agree. Clearly there WAS a time when GW declared they were first and foremost a miniatures company. It was right there in black & white in the Chairman and CEOs preamble to the Annual Report & Accounts. Cannot recall though if it was the previous or current CEO (suspect previous).

 

Without a shadow of a doubt GW has in recent years really started to fully embrace the opportunities their IP affords them (again evidenced in statements in the more recent ARAs) with huge increase in licensing activity and exploration into “moving pictures”.

 

There certainly WAS a time when BL was seen as a marketing activity (the dark days when it was folded into the studio but happily reversed some years back).

 

Luckily (for BL fans like me who haven’t played a game or bought a mini for almost 22 years) GW have allowed BL more freedom and recognised they have other types of customers.

 

However, some BL fiction most certainly is still “designed” to either enhance current/planned studio output OR as is clearly the stated case (by Abnett himself) will itself have a huge impact on the setting. So much so that Abnett needed permission and it has been years in the making (the Valdor lore being seeded). There is no doubt Abnett is pulling together a meta narrative (enuncia, Valdor, perpetuals etc) and it would be incredibly naive to think he could just have free reign and head off to plough his own furrow.

 

The point on the Eisenhorn (and Ravenor) books is correct. At the time they were written they were just good yarns in the huge 40k tapestry. However, the Bequin series is altering that and is going to have ramifications far beyond the Scarus Sector.

 

Unless Abnett is lying and it is all hyperbole!

Edited March 18, 2022 by DukeLeto69

[Petitioner's City]

I don't think it is hyperbole, it's just that his "pre-modern" books (ie all of his books beyond the heresy) are in their own pocket - that's ok, that's what has always allowed him the greatest freedom to do great work since 1997. Yes others play in his sandbox (the anthologies for the Sabbat worlds or now Urdesh and Royal Volpone) and other use his ideas - e.g. ADB using boy from Ravenor, but overall he's building his own, thematically rich, self-driven world, for example. It's impact derives not from some misapplication of continuity with the present; instead its impact comes from the strengths of the text itself.

 

We have no evidence of anything being connected with the modern setting and I think it reflects us putting onto him a hermeneutic that derives from books actually in the modern setting (the hidden throne, for example, and the Dawn of Fire series), rather than anything Dan has done with his "Abnettverse" in the past.

 

In terms of Valdor, he needed to ask to see if there weren't other plans for Valdor, or that it was ok to use him, since at that point the heresy wasn't concluded, he doesnt own the character and he needed to stake out this possibility - that's all. I just think the kind of Moonreaper-esque "it's all connected" style of predicting will end up leaving you disappointed, rather than waiting to see and enjoy/not enjoy Padaemonium on its own merits? Maybe not, maybe having an idea that doesn't come to pass will be enjoyable?

 

Or would you be as happy with as demure a nod as Ullanor becoming Armageddon?

[DukeLeto69]

Ullanor = Armageddon was eye rolling bad for me.

 

I think all the while Abnett was operating within the Abnettverse he had pretty free reign but I don’t think “just” pulling in Valdor is the limit to the things he needed permission for. He has said in several (many) interviews that the thing(s) he needed permission for have significant implications for the setting.

 

And, pure speculation here, I do think there appears to be some effort to tie things together a little more rather than BL books being completely disparate.

 

I remember the years of debate over The Yellow King and many people on here saying there was no way TYK would be anything other than a character from within the Abnettverse (Rorken being a lead suspect).

 

I also think the work Abnett has done in the HH series has slowly and steadily brought the Abnettverse more front and centre and it looks to becoming more of a core element rather than peripheral element of the setting/lore. Specifically enuncia, perpetuals, blanks, cognitae, and he will I am sure use the final SoT book(s) to cement this (and needed permission to do so).

 

Would I be disappointed if tight links between SoT, Pandaemonium and modern Indomitus era books were not there? Maybe a bit yes because with Abnett being allowed to play with the big boys (in his own series) it would feel actually somewhat illogical and all amount to a lot of fuss for nothing (ie Valdor etc did this 500 years ago and meh, no ramifications or knock on to the setting, just ongoing status quo!)

Edited March 18, 2022 by DukeLeto69

[Scribe]

:x

[Moonreaper666]

One thing that is strange to me is that Enuncia isn't used outside of a very few Imperials. The Chaos Gods know about it.

 

Daemons, Corrupted Humans, Eldar, Orks, Necrons, Tau and Tyranids don't use it even though it is very powerful

 

Had Horus use Enuncia he would have permanently killed the Emperor in just a few seconds

 

Based on Mortis, a Psyker or regular human can only use just THREE words at the most if they no longer care about their lives. Assuming the 1st word doesn't kill the user.

 

Valdor's plan will fail (Abaddon, Eldrad plus mamy others are still alive) but the implications and side-effects will haunt the Imperium