Ravenor Rogue LE author foreword - SoT book 8 foreshadowing?

[SkimaskMohawk]

One thing that is strange to me is that Enuncia isn't used outside of a very few Imperials. The Chaos Gods know about it.

 

Daemons, Corrupted Humans, Eldar, Orks, Necrons, Tau and Tyranids don't use it even though it is very powerful

 

Had Horus use Enuncia he would have permanently killed the Emperor in just a few seconds

 

Based on Mortis, a Psyker or regular human can only use just THREE words at the most if they no longer care about their lives. Assuming the 1st word doesn't kill the user.

 

Valdor's plan will fail (Abaddon, Eldrad plus mamy others are still alive) but the implications and side-effects will haunt the Imperium

The whole enuncia side plot is that it's extremely, extraordinarily rare. Very few people know about it and no one knows it all. It also breaks the "rules" of what's allowed, like just taking control of daemons. Why would the chaos gods tell their slaves about it if they knew what exactly it is?

 

Like always, a really weird, chaos centered fanfiction take you got going.

[Moonreaper666]

 

One thing that is strange to me is that Enuncia isn't used outside of a very few Imperials. The Chaos Gods know about it.

 

Daemons, Corrupted Humans, Eldar, Orks, Necrons, Tau and Tyranids don't use it even though it is very powerful

 

Had Horus use Enuncia he would have permanently killed the Emperor in just a few seconds

 

Based on Mortis, a Psyker or regular human can only use just THREE words at the most if they no longer care about their lives. Assuming the 1st word doesn't kill the user.

 

Valdor's plan will fail (Abaddon, Eldrad plus mamy others are still alive) but the implications and side-effects will haunt the Imperium

The whole enuncia side plot is that it's extremely, extraordinarily rare. Very few people know about it and no one knows it all. It also breaks the "rules" of what's allowed, like just taking control of daemons. Why would the chaos gods tell their slaves about it if they knew what exactly it is?

 

Like always, a really weird, chaos centered fanfiction take you got going.

Doubt Enuncia can control Doombreed or the Emerald Cave Daemon.

 

The Saturnine ambush was fan-fiction. The best of the SoH did much better in Solar War than in Saturnine.

[Petitioner's City]

Ullanor = Armageddon was eye rolling bad for me.

 

I think all the while Abnett was operating within the Abnettverse he had pretty free reign but I don’t think “just” pulling in Valdor is the limit to the things he needed permission for. He has said in several (many) interviews that the thing(s) he needed permission for have significant implications for the setting.

 

And, pure speculation here, I do think there appears to be some effort to tie things together a little more rather than BL books being completely disparate.

 

I remember the years of debate over The Yellow King and many people on here saying there was no way TYK would be anything other than a character from within the Abnettverse (Rorken being a lead suspect).

 

I also think the work Abnett has done in the HH series has slowly and steadily brought the Abnettverse more front and centre and it looks to becoming more of a core element rather than peripheral element of the setting/lore. Specifically enuncia, perpetuals, blanks, cognitae, and he will I am sure use the final SoT book(s) to cement this (and needed permission to do so).

 

Would I be disappointed if tight links between SoT, Pandaemonium and modern Indomitus era books were not there? Maybe a bit yes because with Abnett being allowed to play with the big boys (in his own series) it would feel actually somewhat illogical and all amount to a lot of fuss for nothing (ie Valdor etc did this 500 years ago and meh, no ramifications or knock on to the setting, just ongoing status quo!)

 

I do think you are overreading what Dan actually said in those interviews (I've just gone through a bunch and I know there was a youtube one prior to release and the Ars Technica one - can I ask what the others were?). But in the Ars Technica interview he says:

 

 

AT: How much planning went into the big reveal 18:09 in your novel Penitent? 18:11 How vast will the repercussions be 18:13 not only inside your works, 18:15 but for the wider lore?

 

DA: I have been planning it for a long time, a long time. 18:20 I had to get permission to do it. 18:22 It's been a secret thing. 18:23 There's, there's been an, it's been 18:24 on a need to know basis only. 18:25 Only a few select personnel have been allowed 18:27 to know this until it actually came out. 18:29 Not going to spoil it except to say, 18:30 yes there is a huge, huge twist. 18:34 There are quite a lot of huge twists actually 18:35 but there's one particularly huge twist in it. 18:37 It's going to have massive ramifications for, 18:39 if nothing else, for the third book in the series, 18:41 Pandemonium, which, which is, which is due. 18:43 And it will probably have great ramifications 18:45 for the Eisenhorn Inquisitor series. 18:48 And I think it will probably, in the long run, 18:50 have massive implications for the universe as a whole. 18:54 I quite like the fact 18:55 that we can sneak a big twist like that 18:57 into what appears to be a subsidiary story thread. 19:01 I think it is really fun 19:02 because I think it made it twice as unexpected.

 

I just think you have to caution your expectations here - "in the long run" doesn't say something immediate, in the way I think you (or Moonreaper) are hoping for. Just I hope it is a pocket that changes how we understand things - understand the Emperor or the legions or the warp - but not have a plot connection, as such. 

 

Overall, I am not sure I want another "plot point" for the modern setting that is poorly implemented, barely examined or hardly considered because any editors & authors interested in it can't go "beyond" the studio books. Partly that there are too many plot points in the modern setting, many of which are huge and could be really meaningfully explored but don't get the depth they deserve. They understandably don't get the writing attention they need due to the new demands of ongoing continuity. Equally when they do get attention it becomes a "super-friends tie-in" - which is especially why I am loath to see something happen in Pandaemonium which is then picked up in the Indomitus era.

 

I rather instead like the idea of something that rewrites something big about the setting - but we know it won't be something that in the immediate won't rewrite the setting for characters beyond this book (or we end up with a misreading like "everyone knows Enuncia"). Probably closer in immediate impact to Covenant and its Horusian themes, which if it is ever finished might also have such an "impact" on the setting given its focus on the nature of the Emperor and the warp. Another comparison might be Abnett's own Keeler Image short (which arguably is followed up on, in a bit of a dull way, in Plague War). Perhaps the best example of a novel idea having "in the long run" a huge impact was the Cadia pylons and Abnett's depiction of them in Hereticus? Still ended up in a dismal superfriends tie-up (Gathering Storm)  .

 

Also a timey-wimey link would also be as dispiriting as the Ullanor/Armageddon thing, especially when it's a well Dan has used twice (in Ravenor and Warmaster) - but if he does it again, maybe he can do it well? It just feels too repetitive, though.

 

But I get you want something different from this novel (and series), and if it happens and Dan does it well, great - I trust him pretty much to do well, here and in the Siege. Excited to see what happens! 

[DukeLeto69]

Hmmm not sure it is what I WANT (ie Bequin series has huge/essential implications for the whole setting) but it is what I am speculating might happen.

 

I always thought the “big reveal” would be a Jaq Dracoesque “the Emperor is alive and kicking and actively manipulating events from “beyond”” type thing (I was of course speculating that TYK was TGE anyway!) rather than a “plot point A in Bequin directly leads into plot point B in the Dawn of Fire series”.

 

I kinda like the idea that the actions of characters in Bequin result in a situation that enables the Great Rift to happen 500 years later.

 

But as you say, it could all be nothing much full setting wise but be huge within the Abnettverse.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

One thing that is strange to me is that Enuncia isn't used outside of a very few Imperials. The Chaos Gods know about it.

 

Daemons, Corrupted Humans, Eldar, Orks, Necrons, Tau and Tyranids don't use it even though it is very powerful

 

Had Horus use Enuncia he would have permanently killed the Emperor in just a few seconds

 

Based on Mortis, a Psyker or regular human can only use just THREE words at the most if they no longer care about their lives. Assuming the 1st word doesn't kill the user.

 

Valdor's plan will fail (Abaddon, Eldrad plus mamy others are still alive) but the implications and side-effects will haunt the Imperium

The whole enuncia side plot is that it's extremely, extraordinarily rare. Very few people know about it and no one knows it all. It also breaks the "rules" of what's allowed, like just taking control of daemons. Why would the chaos gods tell their slaves about it if they knew what exactly it is?

 

Like always, a really weird, chaos centered fanfiction take you got going.

Doubt Enuncia can control Doombreed or the Emerald Cave Daemon.

 

The Saturnine ambush was fan-fiction. The best of the SoH did much better in Solar War than in Saturnine.

Well the context of solar war was that sigismund and crew had been fighting nonstop and got surprise teleport ambushed. Aximand still was going to die. Saturnine had the sons of Horus be ambushed by every early series loyalist captain. And obviously they all die.

 

The traitors are losers. They can't even pull off an ambush properly, and can't learn from that when they themselves are ambushed. It's not fanfiction when it's a paid publication by their best author.

[jaxom]

Considering OP and Abnett’s quote, the only thing I thank that can be taken from it is that the Emperor and Horus fighting, the traitors fleeing, won’t be the end of the book. Rather, we may get quiet reflection from some of the major characters after the dust has settled.

[MarineRaider]

 

 

 

One thing that is strange to me is that Enuncia isn't used outside of a very few Imperials. The Chaos Gods know about it.

 

Daemons, Corrupted Humans, Eldar, Orks, Necrons, Tau and Tyranids don't use it even though it is very powerful

 

Had Horus use Enuncia he would have permanently killed the Emperor in just a few seconds

 

Based on Mortis, a Psyker or regular human can only use just THREE words at the most if they no longer care about their lives. Assuming the 1st word doesn't kill the user.

 

Valdor's plan will fail (Abaddon, Eldrad plus mamy others are still alive) but the implications and side-effects will haunt the Imperium

The whole enuncia side plot is that it's extremely, extraordinarily rare. Very few people know about it and no one knows it all. It also breaks the "rules" of what's allowed, like just taking control of daemons. Why would the chaos gods tell their slaves about it if they knew what exactly it is?

 

Like always, a really weird, chaos centered fanfiction take you got going.

Doubt Enuncia can control Doombreed or the Emerald Cave Daemon.

 

The Saturnine ambush was fan-fiction. The best of the SoH did much better in Solar War than in Saturnine.

Well the context of solar war was that sigismund and crew had been fighting nonstop and got surprise teleport ambushed. Aximand still was going to die. Saturnine had the sons of Horus be ambushed by every early series loyalist captain. And obviously they all die.

 

The traitors are losers. They can't even pull off an ambush properly, and can't learn from that when they themselves are ambushed. It's not fanfiction when it's a paid publication by their best author.

 

Exactly right!

 

If I was involved in that " fan fiction" that douche with the top knot would have been killed instead of cowardly being teleported away from his rightful death at the end of Garro's sword.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

 

 

One thing that is strange to me is that Enuncia isn't used outside of a very few Imperials. The Chaos Gods know about it.

 

Daemons, Corrupted Humans, Eldar, Orks, Necrons, Tau and Tyranids don't use it even though it is very powerful

 

Had Horus use Enuncia he would have permanently killed the Emperor in just a few seconds

 

Based on Mortis, a Psyker or regular human can only use just THREE words at the most if they no longer care about their lives. Assuming the 1st word doesn't kill the user.

 

Valdor's plan will fail (Abaddon, Eldrad plus mamy others are still alive) but the implications and side-effects will haunt the Imperium

The whole enuncia side plot is that it's extremely, extraordinarily rare. Very few people know about it and no one knows it all. It also breaks the "rules" of what's allowed, like just taking control of daemons. Why would the chaos gods tell their slaves about it if they knew what exactly it is?

 

Like always, a really weird, chaos centered fanfiction take you got going.

Doubt Enuncia can control Doombreed or the Emerald Cave Daemon.

 

The Saturnine ambush was fan-fiction. The best of the SoH did much better in Solar War than in Saturnine.

Well the context of solar war was that sigismund and crew had been fighting nonstop and got surprise teleport ambushed. Aximand still was going to die. Saturnine had the sons of Horus be ambushed by every early series loyalist captain. And obviously they all die.

 

The traitors are losers. They can't even pull off an ambush properly, and can't learn from that when they themselves are ambushed. It's not fanfiction when it's a paid publication by their best author.

Exactly right!

 

If I was involved in that " fan fiction" that douche with the top knot would have been killed instead of cowardly being teleported away from his rightful death at the end of Garro's sword.

The BL writers have been giving a lot of advantages and Plot Armor to the Loyalists

 

Then again the Old Lore/Visions of Heresy never made sense. Lorgar, Konrad and their Legions were at the Siege in the Old Lore. There was no Aegis, no Anti-Daemon field and no wounding of Horus before the Novels.

 

The SoH Elite performed MUCH BETTER in Solar War than Saturnine. The Loyalist Kill-Teams should have been augmented with Skitarii yet suffer bigger losses.

 

Dorn should have sacrificed an Emperor Titan to drive Fulgrim out off the wall in Saturnine. 69 Billion Skitarii sacrificed to kill 18k EC Marines. Pre-Daemon Fulgrim and 6 Marines defeated a large army during the Great Crusade.

 

(Flawless Host once killed Billions in a Hiveworld so it should be costly fighting

 

Khârn should have taken on Camba Diaz plus EIGHT THOUSAND Imperial Fists at the Spaceport killing them all (Khârn has killed more than 5k a day post-Heresy)

 

The SoH Elite should have Chaos Marks, Daemon-blessed Weapons and Powerful Mutations (The Cover Art for Echoes shows that the SoH are corrupted/empowered)

 

Where are the Luperci, SoH equivalent to the Gal Vorbak!?

 

It's strange that New Lore has Abaddon without any Chaos blessing even after the Heresy. Only gifts he has is Eternal Youth and Immunity to all Diseases.

[Scribe]

Considering OP and Abnett’s quote, the only thing I thank that can be taken from it is that the Emperor and Horus fighting, the traitors fleeing, won’t be the end of the book. Rather, we may get quiet reflection from some of the major characters after the dust has settled.

IMO this is a must.

 

The important parts are not mass casualties and troop movements, it's the philosophical, metaphysical, questions, and answers.

[Sothalor]

Seeing these last two posts back-to-back just made me chuckle.

[Moonreaper666]

 

Considering OP and Abnett’s quote, the only thing I thank that can be taken from it is that the Emperor and Horus fighting, the traitors fleeing, won’t be the end of the book. Rather, we may get quiet reflection from some of the major characters after the dust has settled.

IMO this is a must.

 

The important parts are not mass casualties and troop movements, it's the philosophical, metaphysical, questions, and answers.

I kinda expect Solar War alone to kill more people that Star Wars Legends' Yuuzhan Vong War did (360 TRILLION DEAD)

 

Trying to remember the exact words of the Warhammer quote. Forget the advances and promises of science for there is only endless carnage and war.

 

I expected the Siege Novels to be violence unrivaled by any Warhammer or Sci-fi book both in a macro-sense and the details

 

Khârn alone should be slaughtering 8k Loyalist Marines per day or whatever equivalent in Guardsmen/Skitarii numbers

 

All the things Valdor, Eisenhorn, Ravernor and Bequin do are just adding more sands to the time clock. Delaying the inevitable and brutal death of the Galaxy/Universe.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Dude, 8k Marines personally per day is absolutely nonsense numbers. If Khârn is capable of that, the Traitors would be able to defeat every Loyalist legion using just the World Eaters. It’s just laughably wrong.

 

Edit: so now that I’ve looked up some actual numbers, if you kill one Marine a minute, to get 8000 kills it’d take you 5.3 days. For Khârn to kill 8000 guys per day is literally impossible. He’s an incredibly dangerous fighter, but to reach that number he’d basically have to have a conveyor-belt of Astartes just shuffling towards him, killing each instantly.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Lord_Caerolion

[Moonreaper666]

Dude, 8k Marines personally per day is absolutely nonsense numbers. If Khârn is capable of that, the Traitors would be able to defeat every Loyalist legion using just the World Eaters. It’s just laughably wrong.

Warhammer is so brutal even ELITE Units like Space Marines or High Elven Phoenix Guard bleed and die horrible deaths on a regular basis

 

The reason Black Templar have 5k Marines is because they have to recruit a lot to sustain their losses unlike other Chapters

 

Besides, over a few Million Marines died during the Heresy. Blame the BL writers for having death tolls that go over the Heresy Legion numbers!

 

Khârn himself states getting 5k kills is a good day for him

 

He is able to kill two dozen Khorne Berserkers in less than a second. Entire FORTIFIED Guard Regiments fire all their guns at him. They all miss and get slaughtered in just minutes.

 

10k years of Relentless, Unending Carnage without dying once. Khârn is one of the very few things most of 40k is afraid off and for good reason.

 

The Wrath warband are vastly inferior versions of Khârn. Orks and Eldar run in fear off them.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yeah, I’m gonna need sources on that, because that just all sounds like the absolute worst sort of Mary-Sue nonsense.

 

Edit: also, just to point out, but Fulgrim and his 6 compatriots didn’t “defeat a large army” singlehandedly, you’ve obviously just skimmed the plot summary again. Fulgrim led his 6 men and managed to take over the planet, but it was through political intrigue and insurgency. There was fighting, but very small-scale engagements, not Fulgrim and friends facing off on a battlefield against a massive army.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Lord_Caerolion

[DukeLeto69]

@Moonreaper666 I know you are passionate about Chaos and all that but you seem to be flooding a couple of threads with repeated demands for ever higher body counts. Apart from the fact that you seem to be a thrall to Khorne, can you chill a bit as it is starting to come across a bit ranty and is dominating all the discussion as you appear to demand that your head canon takes precedence over what is being written and therefore actual canon.

[Scribe]

When 'head canon' jumps the shark into absurdity, it's not worth the debate.

 

I can remember the reference to Kharns kill counter and 5000, it wasn't a day, I believe not was over a campaign, in a White Dwarf short, I believe by King.

 

That is the LEAST absurd claim on display.

 

I will not give these....statements, anymore value than they deserve.

 

$0.00

[Noserenda]

I dont think Ennuncia is a particularly effective weapon most of the time any (going back a page) due to its typical costs, it runs into the age old problem of being more trouble than just stabbing/shooting/exploding someone that bedevils 99% of cool new weapons research :D 

Its an absolute cracker of a holdout weapon in a pinch though! 

[Kelborn]

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This thread will take a break for a while until it is properly reviewed and its continuation decided upon.

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Edited March 30, 2022 by Kelborn