30k Chaos takes off the gloves Heresy Timeline

[Moonreaper666]

Basically what if the Forces of Chaos hold no punches against the Loyalist (instead of holding back 99.999999999999% of its power). Every weapon and dirty trick is put to use.

 

Siege of Ulthwé or the Imperial-Ork-Eldar Slaughterhouse:

 

-Before the Heresy starts Horus orders the Lion to take the Bulk of the Dark Angels plus a massive Imperial Army/Navy force with elements of the Mechanicus/Skitarii/Knights (those 100% loyal to the Emperor, hand-picked by Horus) to attack Craftworld Ulthwé

 

-Corswain leads a much smaller group to attack the Gordian League. Dark Angels take several times the number of deaths they've suffered in Canon and take much longer to exterminate the Gordians

 

-Ulthwé receives massive aid from Biel-tan, Iyaden, Saim-Hann, Alaitoc plus two dozen minor craftworlds. Phoenix Lords, Harlequins, Corsairs and Commoragh also aid. Orks are bribed or mislead to be the first wave of defending ships. (Dark Eldar aid Ulthwé for selfish-pragmatic reasons. The Craftworld Eldar take the Imperium's heat/attention away from the Dark City)

 

-Lion's massive Armada arrives and immediately engages the Eldar traps/space mines and the large Ork fleets causing horrific destruction in just the 1st phase of the battle alone. Each Phoenix Lord, Drazhar/Arha, Lelith Hesparax and the King of Mandrakes go on a teleporting-rampage across the insides of Imperial ships.

 

-Too many Imperial Army ships so they attack the combined Eldar fleet and engage the defenses of Ulthwé allowing Dark Angel and Mechanicus ships to be mostly undamaged getting close to the Craftworld. Phoenix Lords, Mandrake King, Lelith and Drazhar teleport back to the outskirts of Ulthwé and start attacking transports and slsughtering the landing Dark Angels, Solar Auxilia, Guardsmen, Combat Servitors, Combat Techpriests and Skitarii

 

-The Carnage is enormous. Billions of Eldar, Trillions of Orks and even MOAR Trillions of Humans die in the Siege. Ulthwé is decimated and countless Soul Stones are destroyed, many Dark Eldar permanently die. Lion, Zagreus Kane, Eldrad plus many others die.

 

-Eye of Terror expands and Daemons invade. Ulthwé is devoured along with all the Eldar souls and the Lion's body. Craftworld Altansar's defenses crack and they too are consumed. N'Kari leads a humongous Daemonic invasion of Iyaden

 

-Avenging the lost of so many Eldae Craftworld Biel-Tan invades Fenris. Russ, Space Wolves, Valdor and his Custodes and Jennita and his Silent Sisters forced to defend Fenris. Captain Polux leads the Imperial Fists fleet to aid them.

 

This battle alone ensures Horus/Chaos Gods win the Heresy before it even starts with the direct side-effects, not mentioning the indirect side-effects that each give the Traitors the absolute chance of victory!

 

Destruction of Solemnace:

 

-At the same time as Lion's invasion Horus orders Vulkan to invade Trazyn's Tomb World with a much smaller Imperial Army and Mechanicus force. The Warmaster also orders Guilliman to send 1/5th of the Ultramarines under Gage to aid Vulkan. Corax secretly sends 1/8th of thr Raven Guard to assist as well.

 

-Almost everyone dies. Trazyn is slowly dying but manages to PERMANENTLY KILL Vulkan. Close to death and with most of his Collection and Army gone he begs the Chaos Gods to give him power in exchange for eternal service. He is transformed into a Daemon Prince.

 

Major Side-effects:

 

-Another Loyalist Legion is ambushed by the Iron Warriors in the Battle for Phall

 

-Another Loyalist Legion has to deal with Konrad, Night Lords and Traitor Titans at Thramas. Without the Tulchucha Engine the Loyalist Legion would suffer just as severe losses as the Night Lords.

 

-ANOTHER Loyalist Legion has to deal with the Thousand Sons on Prospero with the TS fleet already returning and with Ahriman taking control of the Legion, fortifying Prospero.

 

-Forgeworld Diamat is taken by the Traitors. Pumps out soldiers and weapons for Horus' side throughout the Heresy

 

-Battle of Calth is much more bloody for the Ultramarines

 

-There are no Shattered Legions. Salamanders wiped out at Solemnance. Corax dies on Isstvan V. Drop Site Massacre pretty much wipes out the Raven Guard and Iron Hands.

 

-Much more Daemonic Hordes manifesting and invading Loyalist worlds overstretching and decimating the Imperials

 

-Typhus gets the Tulchulcha Engine for the Death Guard. Mortarion and his Legion brutally ambush and mostly exterminate the White Scars.

 

-Knights-Errants go to Deliverance to mass-produce new Geneseed. Unfortunately Alpha Legion/Dark Mechanicum forces aided by the Changeling deceiving Imperial Army Regiments into fighting for Horus take the planet and kill all the Errants. Deliverance becomes a Daemon World while ALL the Traitor Legions can mass-produce Raptor-styled Geneseed.

 

-Unless someone stops Bile he will mass-produce New Men (Imagine 275k Terata fighting for Horus on the Siege of Terra!)

 

-Bodt keeps mass-producing Geneseed and Marines for the World Eaters (Imagine the WE Legion EIGHT TIMES LARGER when they are fighting on Terra!!!)

 

-With Zagreus Kane dead on Ulthwé much more of the Mechanicus defects to Kelbor-Hal's Dark Mechanicum

 

-Horus' Traitor Imperial Army and Dark Mechanicum VASTLY OUTNUMBERS their Loyalist counterparts

 

-Traitors/Daemons easily win the War within the Webway. More numbers and much stronger Daemons

[Scammel]

If Chaos 'took off the gloves' and made greater use of Daemons at an earlier stage of the Heresy it's probably also making lesser use of the traitors themselves, because Mortarion and potentially Perturabo likely aren't going to have much truck with that and could well just head off and pursue their own agendas. In fact, swathes of potential traitors across the piece probably get reservations about Horus from a much earlier point, and for every gribbly he manages to call forth from the Warp, there's another forge world that takes a further month to be brought to dark compliance, another system governor at the fringes who decides not to let the traitors resupply.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Scammel

[Moonreaper666]

If Chaos 'took off the gloves' and made greater use of Daemons at an earlier stage of the Heresy it's probably also making lesser use of the traitors themselves, because Mortarion and potentially Perturabo likely aren't going to have much truck with that and could well just head off and pursue their own agendas. In fact, swathes of potential traitors across the piece probably get reservations about Horus from a much earlier point, and for every gribbly he manages to call forth from the Warp, there's another forge world that takes a further month to be brought to dark compliance, another system governor at the fringes who decides not to let the traitors resupply.

Does it matter when the Eldar takes out the Dark Angels while Trazyn wipes out the Salamanders?

 

Decimating the Dark Angels and killing the Lion alone gives Horus the victory

 

-Some other Loyalist Legion (without the Tulchulcha) has to lose a lot of time and Marines to deal with Konrad at Thramas

 

-The Death Guard acquire the Tulchulcha Engine allowing them to decimate the White Scars in a surprised attack

 

-Neither Sanginius nor Guilliman make it pass the Ruinstorm

 

-Forgeworld Diamat is now supplying the Traitors

 

-Trazyn is now a Daemon Prince forced to serve Horus

[Petitioner's City]

I don't believe a Necron would ever embrace the warp - it is anathema to them, right?

[Karhedron]

I don't believe a Necron would ever embrace the warp - it is anathema to them, right?

Correct. Necrons lost their souls during the biotransference meaning they are cut off from the Warp. The Warp cannot corrupt the Necrons and they regard warp rifts the way we would regard a patch of dry rot.

[Moonreaper666]

 

I don't believe a Necron would ever embrace the warp - it is anathema to them, right?

Correct. Necrons lost their souls during the biotransference meaning they are cut off from the Warp. The Warp cannot corrupt the Necrons and they regard warp rifts the way we would regard a patch of dry rot.

Are we talking forceful or willing?

 

Being the vain, kleptomaniac Trazyn is he would if it means he keeps on living and preserve/enhance his collection

 

It doesn't matter if Trazyn makes the deal or not. The destruction of the Salamanders and permanent death of Vulkan results in Corax, Raven Guard and Iron Hands dying at Isstvan V

 

With Corax and his Legion dead Bile is left alone to mass-produce his Terrata and make them even stronger

 

Without the Shattered Legions the Sons of Horus get to mass-produce Primaris Astartes at Luna throughout the Siege of Terra and afterwards

 

Sons of Horus suffer much less casualties and capture more Loyalist worlds. Without Shattered Legions and Corax more worlds stay under Traitor control.

 

Sigismund, Fafnir Rahn, Camba Diaz and Maximus Thane all die in Solar War.

[Moonreaper666]

Grand-Slaughter of Beta-Garmon also known as Culling of the Mechanicus:

 

-Without Khan, Sanginius, Blood Angels Legion, White Scars Legion, Salamander elemnts and Endryd Haar's Blackshields Dorn is forced to commit much more forces to Beta-Garmon including TRILLIONS of ill-trained Conscripts, many are either old, children or mentally-deficient. Psi-Titans deployed as well.

 

-Beta-Garmon occurs years earlier and ends much faster than OTL

 

-On the Traitor side Konrad, Mortarion and the Bulk of the Night Lords and Death Guard join Horus in this slaughter. Together with the majority of the Sons of Horus the Three Legions had their numbers bolstered incredibly, over 1.5 MILLION Traitor Astartes were deployed by the Three Traitor Legions alone at Beta-Garmon

 

-Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Emperor's Children committed more Marines. Dark Mechanicum, Traitor Imperial Army and Cultists have much more troops.

 

-Konrad kills Sigismund, Fafnir Rahn and Camba Diaz in the battle as well as taking out THREE Loyal Emperor Titans. He is wounded and retreats but not before damaging a Psi-Titan.

 

-Mortarion destroys the damaged Psi-Titan and wounds Dorn. He also kills Jennita Kreole and Amon.

 

-Sevatar kills Archamus II. Using his Psyker Powers and dirty tricks he also kills two Imperial Fists Librarian

 

-The massively outgunned, outnumbered, outlead and vastly overstretched Loyalists were easily and gleeful slaughtered by the Traitors. Vast majority of the Loyal Mechanicus forces butchered.

 

 

 

Solar Butchery:

 

-After the quick yet decisive victory at Beta-Garmon the Traitors swiftly invaded the Sol System. Traitor Imperial Army fleets swarm the defenders in space.

 

-Due to the Butterfly Effect Lorgar didn't have time to try to betray Horus. Lorgar and Konrad teleport from Loyalist ship to ship killing the crew.

 

-Lorgar and Konrad kill Dorn and use the Phalanx as an asteroid to severely damage the Imperial Palace, killing most of the defenders

[Moonreaper666]

Compliance of Terra:

 

-The Lost and Damned easily overwhelm the very few remaining defenders and reached the Throne, killing Valdor in the process. Angron, Mortarion, Magnus, Konrad and Horus confront the Emperor. Angron and Mortarion are banished while Konrad is killed. Lorgar kills Malcador. Horus permanently kills the Emperor.

 

Aftermath:

 

-Horus ascends to a Minor Chaos God and leads Dark Crusade after Dark Crusade from Galaxy to Gakaxy, then Universe to Universe

 

-Each of the other Traitor Primarchs conquer Countless Universes in the name of the Dark Gods. Hundreds of thousands of Chaos Astartes plus Millions of Human/Xeno Cultists blessed into Daemon Princes.

[Brother Lunkhead]

.... I was going to address some of your suppositions, unfortunately I can't keep up. You've created a whole new meaning for "jump the shark".

 

By making chaos such an overpowered force, nothing can stand up to them and there is no possibility of conflict beyond beyond one tiny person after another being run over by an unstoppable freight train until it comes to a crashing halt when it runs out of track.... or in this case, souls. It will of course take some time to consume every soul in every conceivable universe, but since it's a foregone conclusion in your universe that all those souls WILL be consumed, is there any point in exploring this? I don't think so. Even most fans of chaos are probably not going to find this idea very compelling. I could be wrong, but it seems you've eliminated all possibility of intriguing conflict, which is a foundation for a lot of interesting fiction.

 

Thoughts?

[Moonreaper666]

.... I was going to address some of your suppositions, unfortunately I can't keep up. You've created a whole new meaning for "jump the shark".

 

By making chaos such an overpowered force, nothing can stand up to them and there is no possibility of conflict beyond beyond one tiny person after another being run over by an unstoppable freight train until it comes to a crashing halt when it runs out of track.... or in this case, souls. It will of course take some time to consume every soul in every conceivable universe, but since it's a foregone conclusion in your universe that all those souls WILL be consumed, is there any point in exploring this? I don't think so. Even most fans of chaos are probably not going to find this idea very compelling. I could be wrong, but it seems you've eliminated all possibility of intriguing conflict, which is a foundation for a lot of interesting fiction.

 

Thoughts?

Uh, Age of Sigmar has Chaos/Archaon go on an endless conquering/consuming spree of the Multiverse until they found Sigmar's new Universe

 

Warhammer is Cthulu on crack

 

Tired of Loyalists winning via some kind of bull:cuss (Saturnine comes to mind)

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

Uh, Age of Sigmar has Chaos/Archaon go on an endless conquering/consuming spree of the Multiverse until they found Sigmar's new Universe

True, but that's a different setting involving one world falling to chaos... and you still had the god Sigmar to rally on. In the 30/40Kverse, once you've perma-killed The Emperor and all of those demi-gods (i.e., Primarchs) and their legions of super soldiers holding back the darkness expunged, all you have left are enclaves of humans hiding in the shadows waiting for death. There's no alternate universe to restart and rebuild in and continue the fight. There's no more story.

 

 

Warhammer is Cthulu on crack

True that

 

 

Tired of Loyalists winning via some kind of bull:cuss (Saturnine comes to mind)

I haven't read Saturnine yet, so I can't speak specifically to that. However, there is definitely something to what you say. But to go back to your original premise that chaos was holding back....

 

Basically what if the Forces of Chaos hold no punches against the Loyalist (instead of holding back 99.999999999999% of its power). Every weapon and dirty trick is put to use.

Chaos thrives in a different universe ruled by very different rules of physics with only a very tenuous connection with our own universe. A tenuous connection that could be expanded upon for sure, but only through careful strategy. The chaos gods, given their limitations and demeanors unleashed their powers as best they could, given the resources available to them.

 

You can't simply assert that chaos held back 99.9999999999999% of its power. You are going to have to demonstrate how that is true and how your other conjectures could come to pass in order to give any of your storylines credence.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Brother Lunkhead

[Karhedron]

Good examples of the effort required for Chaos to manifest in the material universe are the Ruinstorm in HH and the Great Rift in the current 40K setting. The Chaos Gods could not simply snap their tentacled fingers and create those events, both required massive expenditure of effort and ritual to accomplish.

 

The Ruinstorm was the culmination of the assault on Calth, the Shadow Crusade and Angron's elevation to daemonhood. Lorgar spent the opening years of the Heresy engineering the entire thing. Even with all 4 Chaos Gods behind him, it still required a massive effort on the traitor side to conjure the ruinstorm.

 

Similarly the Great Rift was the result of 10K years of effort by Abaddon involving several Black Crusades and the Gothic War to captures the Blackstone Fortresses. Again, the Chaos Gods could not simply wish the Great Rift into existence.

 

Chaos is incredibly powerful but most of the time it cannot manifest easily into the material Universe. It requires great effort, ritual and sacrifice to weaken the veil of reality sufficiently for the Chaos Gods to start pushing their power through. If the Chaos Gods could operate in the manner you describe in your first post, the Material Universe would have been overwhelmed by Chaos a long time ago.

[Moonreaper666]

Good examples of the effort required for Chaos to manifest in the material universe are the Ruinstorm in HH and the Great Rift in the current 40K setting. The Chaos Gods could not simply snap their tentacled fingers and create those events, both required massive expenditure of effort and ritual to accomplish.

 

The Ruinstorm was the culmination of the assault on Calth, the Shadow Crusade and Angron's elevation to daemonhood. Lorgar spent the opening years of the Heresy engineering the entire thing. Even with all 4 Chaos Gods behind him, it still required a massive effort on the traitor side to conjure the ruinstorm.

 

Similarly the Great Rift was the result of 10K years of effort by Abaddon involving several Black Crusades and the Gothic War to captures the Blackstone Fortresses. Again, the Chaos Gods could not simply wish the Great Rift into existence.

 

Chaos is incredibly powerful but most of the time it cannot manifest easily into the material Universe. It requires great effort, ritual and sacrifice to weaken the veil of reality sufficiently for the Chaos Gods to start pushing their power through. If the Chaos Gods could operate in the manner you describe in your first post, the Material Universe would have been overwhelmed by Chaos a long time ago.

Ynnari storyline confirms Chaos fought in the War in Heaven. 1st phase was Chaos vs Eldar-Necrontyr Alliance.

 

Emperor created The Angel to beat a very powerful Daemon Prince on Terra

 

Khârn slaughters anything weaker than a Primarch without dying post-Siege. He never retreats from a fight so he has decimated everything thrown at him.

 

Orikan predicted all of Chaos' shenanigans during the War in Heaven. Necrons created Pylons. Despite that they failed to do anything against Chaos.

[Karhedron]

None of those points have anything to do with the Heresy. I am afraid I just don't agree with your basic premise that Chaos is somehow "holding back" in the Heresy. The novels consistently depict large-scale warp shannanigens as being very difficult to engineer. Yes there are a few too many occasions of Imperials getting lucky breaks but there is no impression that the Chaos side is committing anything less than 100% to the cause.

[Moonreaper666]

None of those points have anything to do with the Heresy. I am afraid I just don't agree with your basic premise that Chaos is somehow "holding back" in the Heresy. The novels consistently depict large-scale warp shannanigens as being very difficult to engineer. Yes there are a few too many occasions of Imperials getting lucky breaks but there is no impression that the Chaos side is committing anything less than 100% to the cause.

Where is Doombreed? Sons of Horus Elite with Chaos Blessings and Tactical Senses? Shalaxi Hellbane? Changeling? Not-Yet-Prisoner of the Emerald Cave?

 

An'ngrath is a superior Bloodthrister to Ka'Bandha. Yet he is not in the Heresy.

 

The Blade of Antywr isn't in the Heresy

 

In 40k a Hive World was invaded by Daemonettes because the Nobles made a stupid joke and boast about invinting them

 

Ahriman should have summoned a Space Whale in Solar War big enough to devour an entire Battleship

 

Ahriman is much more powerful than Khayon who is capable of throwing a Grand Cruiser on a planet

 

Saturnine Bull:cuss. Weakling Guardsmen and a few Imperial Fists should just be Cannon Fodder when fighting the ENTIRE Emperor's Children Legion!

 

Fulgrim took a hit from an Emperor Titan on Molech!!! Dorn is nothing!!!

 

Fulgrim slaughtered Guilliman's Marines after slashing his throat. He should have taken Saturnine Wall on his own no problem!!!

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

In 40k a Hive World was invaded by Daemonettes because the Nobles made a stupid joke and boast about invinting them

Since the subject here is 30K, we should all limit our references to that time period in the lore. Besides, if Brother Moonreaper666 has his way, there will be no 40K to reference anyway 

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

In 40k a Hive World was invaded by Daemonettes because the Nobles made a stupid joke and boast about invinting them

Since the subject here is 30K, we should all limit our references to that time period in the lore. Besides, if Brother Moonreaper666 has his way, there will be no 40K to reference anyway

Doombreed solo'd an entire Hive World

 

Had he been on Signus Prime instead of that weakling Ka'Bandha Sanginius would have died

 

Doombreed is one of the very Daemons on par or surpassing the Primarchs. Shalaxi and the Prisoner of the Emerald Cave are two others.

 

Skulltaker would have killed Black Templar Sigismund in a 1 vs 1 Duel

 

Changeling kills and impersonates Zagreus Kane resulting in much more of the Mechanicus defecting to the Dark Mechanicum

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

Doombreed solo'd an entire Hive World

True... But he didn't have a Primarch and his Legion to contend with there.

 

 

Had he been on Signus Prime instead of that weakling Ka'Bandha Sanginius would have died

 

Doombreed is one of the very Daemons on par or surpassing the Primarchs. Shalaxi and the Prisoner of the Emerald Cave are two others.

But he wasn't there... and even if he was, I'm not so sure Sanguinius would have died. Keep in mind that once a daemon prince enters the physical realm his power begins to diminish unless reinforced by esoteric means (mass sacrifice, mass fear, mass bloodshed, etc., etc.). Also, another thing that folks who question how a mere Primach like Sanguinius could defeat a daemon prince don't seem to take into account that the esoteric forces that govern the warp entities can work both ways Whereas entities like daemon princes feed on death and blood and terror and .... all of that bad stuff, they may well be weakened by those who oppose them who radiate, courage, certainty of purpose (faith in The Emperor and all that entails), purity and... all that good stuff. I can't think of a better example than Sanginius in this battle. I don't think even Doombreed could defeat Sang so easily.

 

So far, although you present some interesting ideas, I'm not seeing a convincing argument. You are still presenting a lot of scenarios, but not much to reinforce their validity. Rather than continue to present new scenarios, it might be better to defend the ones you've already issued

 

 

Changeling kills and impersonates Zagreus Kane resulting in much more of the Mechanicus defecting to the Dark Mechanicum

This might actually work Considering how the first cadres of the Dark Mechanicum were so easily possessed by chaos, I can actually see this as a viable idea You might want to expand on this..... Well done

Edited April 12, 2022 by Brother Lunkhead

[Moonreaper666]

Another   thing was Khârn not killing Sigismund in First Wall

I swear Sigismund has more Plot Armor than Abaddon himself in the Siege!

Had Khârn killed Sigismund in First Wall Horus would have won

Had the Chaos Gods sent their best Daemons Horus wins the Siege

Edited April 13, 2022 by Brother Lunkhead

[Brother Lunkhead]

Another   thing was Khârn not killing Sigismund in First Wall

 

I swear Sigismund has more Plot Armor than Abaddon himself in the Siege!

 

Had Khârn killed Sigismund in First Wall Horus would have won

I don't think it is . I think the plot armor is actually on Khârn. Keep in mind that Sigismund knows and respects Khârn's fighting abilities and at this point understands how far his friend has fallen. Sigismund knows what is at stake and won't cut his former friend any slack. At this point, the nails in Khârn's brain force him into such a berserker rage that he loses all sense of strategy and skill. Whereas, Sigismund, the finest swordsman in the Empire, and no slouch as a strategist is still fully rational in combat. That gives him the edge (just barely though)... along with his brother Fists having his back. Khârn has the favor of Khorne, and that is what keeps him in the fight. If not for that, Khârn would be long dead.

 

Had the Chaos Gods sent their best Daemons Horus wins the Siege

For the chaos gods, it's not a simple matter of logistics. There are many more factors involved in deploying their forces.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Brother Lunkhead