New 40k Balance Dataslate and it’s implications for us!

[The Pounder]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/lBLlqvrttJVgyfhC.pdf

 

This is just sooo good!

 

Can’t believe the exploding 6’s rule. Infantry builds will be loving it.

 

Also our indirect fire has remained unscathed!

 

I’m a very happy Kriegsman!

[WarriorFish]

Yes, this was unexpected to say the least! Army wide auto-wounding on 6s to hit is quite the change, lasgun spam here we come? :lol: A pity that this is lost if you include a Stormtrooper detachment, but not like they've spent much time in from the cold here

 

In case anyone is wondering; indirect weapons now have a penalty where they are -1 to hit and the target gets +1 to their save when firing indirectly. Guard ignore this restriction, so I'm sure everyone is quaking in their boots when we get our mortars out

 

The change that will need more grey matter is to Infantry - 60pts a squad but all upgrades are free. I'm not sure on this one as upgrades aren't going to help much when squads are so easily removed. I don't like the idea of feeling like you "have" to load up on kit to avoid paying a premium

[sairence]

Scions don't block the auto-wound change, because they are not regiment, but tempestus regiment. They also don't benefit from it though, by the same logic with which you can still mix Scions and regular Guard.

 

The infantry change is...hm. Unsure. For a lot of people it'll be another 5p hike. I'm doubtful it'll add much power either. I personally always upgraded with Vox anyway though, so I guess it's a free flamer for me.

 

And yeah...those non-LoS changes would have killed our arty. Thank goodness we ignore it.

[greatcrusade08]

just to clarify, i can get an infantry sqaud with special weapon, heavy weapon, vox, upgrades on the sergeants for 60pts.. all that is included, thats like 50% off he cost?

[Rikev]

Will an army of entirely Tempestus get the auto-wound? I'm not sure how they interact with the keyword. If they just replace <Regiment> with Tempestus then they are all the same regiment so the troops and their Tauroxes benefit from the rule? They have a separate entry in the Codex from the Auxillia and Advisors list.

 

Only auto-wound on six and an extra attack on six with high AP weapons sounds rather insane!

 

I found something in the FAQ that hints that it may be a regular regimental keyword?

 

 

 

Page 140 – Master of Command Add the following: ‘If your Warlord is a Commissar, it can issue an order to any Infantry unit (irrespective of what regiment that unit is from – e.g. Militarum Tempestus, Cadian, etc.)’.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Rikev

[The Pounder]

That’s how I read it!

 

Basically the barebones squad went up to 60pts but all wargear is now included in the price.

 

I always field a power sword (for the look) and a special weapon so in my mind we’ve had a pts drop.

[domsto]

The new Rules for Indirekt fire are great. As they keep our non-LoS Fire a bit safer while also not nerfing them.

The new Detachment Rules is also pretty Strong.

As said by the other i am very unsure on regards to Infantry. For me it fills like yet another Price hike... Yes the "free" special Weapon is nice, but the Rest? with Infantry always on the move the HWT won't be too usefull. Also the CC upgrades on the Sarge are a bit mehh. Yes you get a Energy Sword or Powerfist for free, but you are still WS 4+ S3 A2...

 

I think i would have prefered for the Infantry to not change at all.

 

The -1AP for everything Power Armor is a big problem for us as we already "only" have Ap-2 or -3 on our Guns.

Will an army of entirely Tempestus get the auto-wound? I'm not sure how they interact with the keyword. If they just replace <Regiment> with Tempestus then they are all the same regiment so the troops and their Tauroxes benefit from the rule? They have a separate entry in the Codex from the Auxillia and Advisors list.

 

Only auto-wound on six and an extra attack on six with high AP weapons sounds rather insane!

No Sions won't get this as they are "Tempestus Regiment" and not "Regiment" according to PA "the Greater Good"

but in return they don't block the other Units from getting the Bonus

Edited April 14, 2022 by domsto

[Rikev]

Ahhh OK that makes sense, I was going off the eons old by now Codex. Thanks.

[Plague _Lord]

Yes, this was unexpected to say the least! Army wide auto-wounding on 6s to hit is quite the change, lasgun spam here we come? A pity that this is lost if you include a Stormtrooper detachment, but not like they've spent much time in from the cold here

 

In case anyone is wondering; indirect weapons now have a penalty where they are -1 to hit and the target gets +1 to their save when firing indirectly. Guard ignore this restriction, so I'm sure everyone is quaking in their boots when we get our mortars out

 

The change that will need more grey matter is to Infantry - 60pts a squad but all upgrades are free. I'm not sure on this one as upgrades aren't going to help much when squads are so easily removed. I don't like the idea of feeling like you "have" to load up on kit to avoid paying a premium

 

What premium? You don't think inbuilt autowounds on 6's to hit is worth the extra 5pts? :D

 

I am amazed by the changes tbh and love them (apart from the autowound rules - it's stupid). Free gear is great but I wonder if it will hold onto the next codex. I don't want to give all my sarges powerfists only for it to not work in 6months... But on the other hand it's great to be able to use all those infantry guys I have modeled with grenade launchers and melta guns - they are free after all :)

 

Oh and LRBT with punishers start to look as a solid heavy support slot...

[WarriorFish]

Not when the rest of the army gets it for free It is the price for an all you can eat upgrade buffet, which is at least the cheapest way to eat Good to know that Stormies won't break this rule I missed that

 

I'm not in favour of anything that pushes a certain way to play, this feels like a clunky way of doing something (but such is the way of 9th it seems...). It'll be nice to put voxes back in guilt free, but this is one of those things that we'll need to get experience of to see how it really works (outside of redundancy?).

 

The auto-wound on 6 is definitely the main dish here, and will add a notable level of reliability to shooting. Given how many dice Guard can throw out (and need to) that's a fair bit of opportunity. I know I joked about lasguns, but you could do some cheeky things like shooting at vehicles to plink off wounds (and no new Marine/Sister rule to interfere)

 

As for pudding (I've just had lunch if anyone is wondering), the indirect fire is nice but I'd say almost a requirement given how much Guard can rely on them, but again it feels like another push in how to play. Marines and Sisters being more resistant to armour reduction will be an issue but mitigated at least partially by the exploding dice? Would be interesting to know how this works numbers wise.

 

Speaking of a lot of people are going to need to refactor their "how many lasguns to kill an X" calculations The way things are we must take whatever we can get, as it is better than nothing - I was thinking that I'd played my Guard enough and was waiting for the new codex but maybe I'll have them march to war some more to see how these play out.

[Captain Caine 24th]

Very exciting!

 

AM/IG - Auto wound on 6's. High volume fire and anything with re-rolls to hit makes the most sense to me.

• A lascannon already does well with wounding, but a heavy bolter sometimes needs help. Will have to run the math on it. Surely moving and shooting isn't great on infantry so I'm less in love with a one-shot hitting on 5+. But, maybe I'm looking to solve the wrong problem. Maybe I really do want 6x 'free' missile launchers in my list. 
• Heavy bolter tank sponsons are more attractive. I'd like to play test Cadian punishers with the psychic awakening supp., Cadia supp., and prior data slate. Hard to argue with demolishers though, but I've been thinking about that gatekeeper battlecannon for a while now anyway. I feel I want some more range. 
• I have a suspicion this may get nerfed to 'infantry only' if somebody figures out how to break the mechanic.

AM/IG - Free weapons + 5pts on infantry squad. Well, a free (5pt) melta gun, powersword (and bolter) and heavy bolter is hard to argue with. To some extent it's a sunk cost, there's no going back. I suppose you can avoid the price hike if you go full scions or conscripts. Space/manuever/room on the board might be an issue. 

• Dagger of Tu-sakh maybe has better options, but special weapon teams didn't get the free wargear treatment. It's always nice to have a means to get line breaker or capture objectives. 
• AM/IG is more of a chip damage army than an elite one shot army. Basilisks, infantry, tanks, etc., all support each other to take something down. So one little sergeant with a powersword killing a marine may be laughable to another army - but numbers add up. Stripping a wound here or there adds up across dozens of units. 
• Melta is also scary. Often they do nothing, and are completely anti-climatic. But sometimes they one-shot a character or cripple a tank. Elite armies need to think before they act. For example, they deep strike into the backfield hoping to get some free carnage, not realizing that three infantry squads in reasonable range now have plasma pistols, melta guns, and heavy weapons. Said another way, while moving up the table to get cheap infantry guns in range to actually use them may always be difficult - an enemy coming to your backfield faces a much more dangerous proposition. Volume makes this scary. Also, elite armies might now have to make more serious choices on durability strats. If you have melta and plasma everywhere - who do they buff up to invincibility? With enough units, you could draw out the strats systematically. 

Core Rules/Meta - everyone else taking a hit on indirect fire (e.g. tau, tyranids) really helps. Harlequins took a big hit on points. Custodes no longer get obsec on all infantry (one teleporting terminator is less effective). I think by comparison we get a lot of bonus here. Keep the manticores! Well they are getting pricey, but mortar teams for backfield objective infantry make sense. I've actually been thinking of fielding earthshakers (rule of cool) or actually basilisks again. 

 

AM/IG - Free vox casters.  This opens up a lot of strats I never really used, even that cadian auto-vox relic. This also pairs well with the prior data slate about issuing more orders w/6".

• Any little bit can help to keep officers out of range and giving up assassination secondaries.
• Also it can help some sloppy movement on my part. I should more intentional and serious about who moves where, and when. Vox's will add a lot of tactical depth in movement fundamentals - not just pushing up the board, running to objectives, or blocking enemy reserves. I'll have to play test this.

Man, every time I'm working on another project... now I've got to get special weapons and power swords painted... (this is a good thing, and I'm happy about it)

[Plague _Lord]

20 cadian white shields with FRFSRF will do on average 3 damage to a Leman Russ (300% boost in effectiveness). 10 Cadian Veterans with only lasguns, 2 strats for ap-2m reroll 1's  and FRFSRF will do on average 5 unsaved damage to a Leman Russ (140% boost in effectiveness).

 

However 20 of the same white shields go from killing 2 marines to killing 3 and wounding a 4th on average. It's a big boost statistically.

[OldWherewolf]

Oh I like this. 

 

- the 6s auto-wounding means lasguns on overwatch may do something.  But free upgrades means flamers, meltaguns and plasma guns, vox casters, sarge plasma pistols & power swords.  Then combine this with Take Aim! for re-rolling 1s (into more 6s).   Combined with the free flamer means charging a guard squad isn't a free pass anymore. 

 

- Wyverns become interesting with their large number of shots

 

Basilisks still suck, but on well.  At least this is a step in the right direction.

 

Edit:

 

This is an indirect boost to durability.  The additional output & overwatch means there's less shooting at us, and less in melee with us.  The free power sword on the sergeant means we might just pluck that last wound off something. 

 

We'll still die to concentrated fire, but we'll need cheaper chimera's to fix that

Edited April 14, 2022 by Brainpsyk

[Tallarn Commander]

I usually run 9 infantry squads. My 1st Platoon is equipped with las/plas/plasma pistol. 2nd Platoon is bazooka/plas/plasma pistol. 3rd Platoon is heavy bolter/plas/plasma pistol.

 

Wow. My list just gained 165 points! Although it's still 9th Edition so I'm sure I'll still lose against competitive lists til we get our codex. :)

[Closet Skeleton]

My painted collection in total lost 83 points bringing it to a round 3150, of which 155 are Legends Rough Riders and weapon options so I guess until I get my artillery finished I just have a 3k army now.

 

I'm not in favour of anything that pushes a certain way to play, this feels like a clunky way of doing something (but such is the way of 9th it seems...). It'll be nice to put voxes back in guilt free, but this is one of those things that we'll need to get experience of to see how it really works (outside of redundancy?).

 

You were just as much pushed to play barebones guard under the old rules as you are to actually take a mix of weapons in the new update.

 

Lascannons in guard squads are an actual option now.

 

You have almost no reason not to take at least a plasma gun or grenade launcher in every squad but to be honest, guardsmen are not napoleonic infantry in space, they're supposed to be 20th century military in space.

 

Options that cost points but aren't worth it are dumb. Minmaxing your army size by avoiding trap options does more to make the game innaccessible to beginners than it does to actually reward intelligent list building (as if that needs that much rewarding anyway). Infantry squads are all playing power level now.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[SteveAntilles]

I usually run 9 infantry squads. My 1st Platoon is equipped with las/plas/plasma pistol. 2nd Platoon is bazooka/plas/plasma pistol. 3rd Platoon is heavy bolter/plas/plasma pistol.

 

Wow. My list just gained 165 points! Although it's still 9th Edition so I'm sure I'll still lose against competitive lists til we get our codex.

I run 12 infantry squads all decked out in my Tanith. I have no idea what I'm going to fill points with now...

 

EDIT:

I now have 167 points to fill in two Battalions. Trying to build this army as it appeared after Vervunhive but before Phantine. Good problem to have, but kind of annoying.

Edited April 14, 2022 by SteveAntilles

[WarriorFish]

 

I'm not in favour of anything that pushes a certain way to play, this feels like a clunky way of doing something (but such is the way of 9th it seems...). It'll be nice to put voxes back in guilt free, but this is one of those things that we'll need to get experience of to see how it really works (outside of redundancy?).

 You were just as much pushed to play barebones guard under the old rules as you are to actually take a mix of weapons in the new update.

Indeed, and I wasn't in favour of that for the same reason...

 

I wonder if this level of change means anything as to timelines for a new codex, if so I would assume that means later as opposed to sooner (which seems accurate, if we're to go by rumour talk)?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Great so now lasguns have an even better chance of wounding tanks…that’s about as immersion breaking as it gets.

 

Maybe if they said except models with T7 or above or something this wouldn’t be so bad to me.

[Galron]

Woot! All infantry is back on the table. While Auspx tactics doesnt seem to agree, according to the wording of HotE, scions do indeed get it since even the scion regiments are still regiments.

 

I might have to field my Praetorian Guard for an upcoming crusade. 500 points gets me two commander, 3 guard squads with plasma and lascannons, a vet squad with 3 plasma, 2 heavy weapons squads with 3 mortars each, and an armored sentinel with a lascannon and a hunter killer.

[sairence]

Had a bit of a think about Scions and Hammer of the Emperor and its something that needs clarification.

 

My initial instinct was they don't gain it but don't break it.

 

But if the Militarum Tempestus keyword is to be considered a non-selectable replacement for <Regiment>, then a pure Scion army would get it, but a mixed Guard/Scion army would not.

 

And that's a possible implication of the Nachmund FAQ.

 

The extra keyword from Greater Good <Tempestus Regiment> is irrelevant for that question btw. Just mentioning it because I've already seen a few debates about this in the wild.

Edited April 14, 2022 by sairence

[TCC]

just to clarify, i can get an infantry sqaud with special weapon, heavy weapon, vox, upgrades on the sergeants for 60pts.. all that is included, thats like 50% off he cost?

need to start cutting of those chainswords and replace with powerswords 

[Diagramdude]

30 Conscripts get 120 lasgun shots with FRFSRF. If you can layer reroll failed hits on top of that via Vengeance for Cadia or Laurels of Command for Cadian's buffed Take Aim, the expected number of wounds gets ludicrous. 

[SteveAntilles]

 

I usually run 9 infantry squads. My 1st Platoon is equipped with las/plas/plasma pistol. 2nd Platoon is bazooka/plas/plasma pistol. 3rd Platoon is heavy bolter/plas/plasma pistol.

 

Wow. My list just gained 165 points! Although it's still 9th Edition so I'm sure I'll still lose against competitive lists til we get our codex.

I run 12 infantry squads all decked out in my Tanith. I have no idea what I'm going to fill points with now...

 

EDIT:

I now have 167 points to fill in two Battalions. Trying to build this army as it appeared after Vervunhive but before Phantine. Good problem to have, but kind of annoying.

 

All right, so I'll need to go through my models to make sure I have enough, but I think I can promote a commissar to a lord commissar, and then add a Patrol detachment with another Infantry Squad and then add a squad of snipers (Ratling Counts-as) and be back up to 2k pts.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I don’t think scions are covered by HotE

 

Think about it, Kasrkin/generic storm troopers seem to be making a comeback in the form of a new kit.

 

If you’re releasing a new kit that is in game going to fill a similar if not identical niche as another kit how to incentivize as many people as possible to buy that kit? Make the new kit subject to a powerful new rule/ability that the old kit isn’t subject to.

 

30 Conscripts get 120 lasgun shots with FRFSRF. If you can layer reroll failed hits on top of that via Vengeance for Cadia or Laurels of Command for Cadian's buffed Take Aim, the expected number of wounds gets ludicrous.

 

 

which is why I think this rule is absurd. They should have put a T cap on it to prevent masses lasguns with rerolls from becoming de facto antitank weapons.

[MrKoolPants]

These are some truly wild, and much welcomed, changes. I love the auto-wounding sixes from a fluff perspective: I always imagined a fusillade of gunfire, just absolute sheets of laser beams, combining to do more damage than any one gun alone could do. I think this represents that fluff well!

 

I think the free gear is also super fluffy. You always see guard depicted as having the gear, but the points cost made it hard to justify. IG/AM don’t work like other armies, so I love to see this “outside the box” thinking in the rules.

 

Also, the math on that 30–man FRFSRF is absolutely nutty. 33 wounds BEFORE ROLLING ANY WOUNDS ROLLS?

 

I think Punisher LR/TC just got a big buff, too. A TC Punisher shooting twice with grinding advance will do 6-7 wounds flat out. After rolling the remaining wound rolls, you’re looking at 20 wounds against MEQ. With the Weapon Expert Tank Ace, those are at -1 AP to counter the new power armor. After saves, you’re stripping 6-7 wounds suuuper consistently off a squad.

Edited April 14, 2022 by LtColKool