New 40k Balance Dataslate and it’s implications for us!

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

These are some truly wild, and much welcomed, changes. I love the auto-wounding sixes from a fluff perspective: I always imagined a fusillade of gunfire, just absolute sheets of laser beams, combining to do more damage than any one gun alone could do. I think this represents that fluff well!

 

I think the free gear is also super fluffy. You always see guard depicted as having the gear, but the points cost made it hard to justify. IG/AM don’t work like other armies, so I love to see this “outside the box” thinking in the rules.

 

Also, the math on that 30–man FRFSRF is absolutely nutty. 33 wounds BEFORE ROLLING ANY WOUNDS ROLLS?

 

I think Punisher LR or even TC just got a big buff, too. A Punisher shooting twice with grinding advance will do 6-7 wounds flat out. With Weapon Expert Tank Ace, those are at -1 AP to counter the new power armor.

you think the ability to reliably wound a baneblade with a lasgun represents the fluff well?

[MrKoolPants]

 

These are some truly wild, and much welcomed, changes. I love the auto-wounding sixes from a fluff perspective: I always imagined a fusillade of gunfire, just absolute sheets of laser beams, combining to do more damage than any one gun alone could do. I think this represents that fluff well!

 

I think the free gear is also super fluffy. You always see guard depicted as having the gear, but the points cost made it hard to justify. IG/AM don’t work like other armies, so I love to see this “outside the box” thinking in the rules.

 

Also, the math on that 30–man FRFSRF is absolutely nutty. 33 wounds BEFORE ROLLING ANY WOUNDS ROLLS?

 

I think Punisher LR or even TC just got a big buff, too. A Punisher shooting twice with grinding advance will do 6-7 wounds flat out. With Weapon Expert Tank Ace, those are at -1 AP to counter the new power armor.

you think the ability to reliably wound a baneblade with a lasgun represents the fluff well?

Sure! The science of directed energy weapons in 40k is generally foggy, but I think the lasgun is depicted as a beam strong enough to blow off a human limb or pierce weak points in power armor.

 

I think the idea is that combined shots from multiple lasguns has an amplifying effect. Sort of like, if you shoot enough lasguns, you’ll get enough energy from the combined photons to match, for example, a Lascannon beam. The only problem is it takes hundreds (if not thousands) of shots combined to get to that point.

 

Maybe I’m justifying some tasty rules though, haha.

[The Pounder]

Tasty rules need no justification!! Just look at T’au!!

[MrKoolPants]

Lolol for real. Tau got hit with the nerf bat pretty hard on this dataslate, too. At least Mont’Ka/Farsight builds.

 

I feel nervous doing a bunch of converting or weapon swaps at this point. I’d hate to swag out a bunch of Sergeants and then go back to points costs with the new Dex.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

These are some truly wild, and much welcomed, changes. I love the auto-wounding sixes from a fluff perspective: I always imagined a fusillade of gunfire, just absolute sheets of laser beams, combining to do more damage than any one gun alone could do. I think this represents that fluff well!

 

I think the free gear is also super fluffy. You always see guard depicted as having the gear, but the points cost made it hard to justify. IG/AM don’t work like other armies, so I love to see this “outside the box” thinking in the rules.

 

Also, the math on that 30–man FRFSRF is absolutely nutty. 33 wounds BEFORE ROLLING ANY WOUNDS ROLLS?

 

I think Punisher LR or even TC just got a big buff, too. A Punisher shooting twice with grinding advance will do 6-7 wounds flat out. With Weapon Expert Tank Ace, those are at -1 AP to counter the new power armor.

you think the ability to reliably wound a baneblade with a lasgun represents the fluff well?

Sure! The science of directed energy weapons in 40k is generally foggy, but I think the lasgun is depicted as a beam strong enough to blow off a human limb or pierce weak points in power armor.

 

I think the idea is that combined shots from multiple lasguns has an amplifying effect. Sort of like, if you shoot enough lasguns, you’ll get enough energy from the combined photons to match, for example, a Lascannon beam. The only problem is it takes hundreds (if not thousands) of shots combined to get to that point.

 

Maybe I’m justifying some tasty rules though, haha.

yeah sounds like you’re trying to justify a rule. A frag grenade can blow a limb off a person. Hell depending on the limb a small firework has the ability to do that, but a frag grenade isn’t penetrating armor.

 

Also for the beams to have the effect you’re talking about theyd all have to hit the same spot basically at the same time

And the rule also says nothing about any sort of massed fire the last surviving dude from a squad can shoot a baneblade on its last would and role a 6 to hit and it’s dead.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Lolol for real. Tau got hit with the nerf bat pretty hard on this dataslate, too. At least Mont’Ka/Farsight builds.

 

I feel nervous doing a bunch of converting or weapon swaps at this point. I’d hate to swag out a bunch of Sergeants and then go back to points costs with the new Dex.

i think the points thing will be a long lasting thing, but I see HotE getting nerfed a month or two after the new codex is released.

 

Honestly this makes me think they’re planning to make guard the next new codex to be announced. Give the guard a sneak peek at some juicy new rules to build hype for guard and then drop the codex announcement.

[Diagramdude]

For 30 conscripts firing 120 lasgun shots:
33.33 automatic wounds if you have reroll all failed hits, plus 33.33 more hits. 
23.33 automatic wounds if you have reroll 1's, plus 23.33 more hits.
20 automatic wounds if you have no rerolls, plus 20 more hits. 

It's really, really strong and only really negated by 2+ saves, anything relying on a 3+ or 4++ is going to get plinked right off the table. 

[sairence]

When was the last time you got actually fire a full blob of 30 conscripts in rapid fire range at something without a decent save?

 

And how many reroll all failed hit effects do we actually have? Vengeance and...what else? Cadian order? Well, you already gave frfsrf. Plus, in this magical scenario we actually stood 12" from a target for a full battleround without losing a single conscript.

 

Let's not get overexcited by theoryhammer guys.

[MrKoolPants]

When was the last time you got actually fire a full blob of 30 conscripts in rapid fire range at something without a decent save?

 

And how many reroll all failed hit effects do we actually have? Vengeance and...what else? Cadian order? Well, you already gave frfsrf. Plus, in this magical scenario we actually stood 12" from a target for a full battleround without losing a single conscript.

 

Let's not get overexcited by theoryhammer guys.

This is a great point. It’s definitely not game-breaking, which is actually a good thing. It’s plain good. Gives a nice buff across the board, but will always be dampened by actual game circumstances and (of course) attrition.

[The Pounder]

Yeah, it’s not game breaking but massively useful compared to what we had before (which was nothing)

 

Personally I’ll take what I can get at this point. I’d imagine this is a taster of what’s to come in the new codex.

 

It gives a boost to what I believe is our strength which is saturation of firepower that is throwing enough :cuss at something and eventually

 

something will stick!!

 

Can’t wait to try it out on the table.

[MrKoolPants]

Same, I can’t wait to try it on the table. I’m thinking HWS with mortars might actually be a cute way to fill out HS for a brigade. Three squads can chill on backfield objectives out of LOS, and on average 9 mortars will toss out 5 wounds just on the hit roll. They still do decent work against GEQ besides. For 150pts, that’s pretty good ROI in terms of output, survivability, and objective-holding.

 

From the wording, it doesn’t seem like taking a separate Scion detachment prevents you from benefiting from the rule for your AM detachment, right?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think this needs some tweaking still.

 

Maybe something like this rule applies only to targets whose T is no more than 2 higher than the attacking weapon’s S.

 

So lasguns would still work like this against gravis marines, but not most vehicles, where as a krak missile, grenade, or auto cannon would have the effect on MBT level targets.

[Emperor Ming]

But what happens if you don't want heavy weapons in every squad

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

But what happens if you don't want heavy weapons in every squad

then don’t take them, but there’s no reason not to

[MrKoolPants]

Honestly HotE is pretty good even without the free HW. For high-volume shooting with lasguns at least (which is efficient use of Infantry Squads/Conscripts now), the HW are kind of icing.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

How will this effect veterans?

Maybe promote a change from melta to plasma to go for the higher number of shots?

[MrKoolPants]

How will this effect veterans?

Maybe promote a change from melta to plasma to go for the higher number of shots?

 

Honestly, vets suffer from the same old issue of being an Elites choice. It's hard to justify taking them vs Infantry Squads, or even Conscripts. Exploding 6s help them as much as any other unit, but the cost you pay for the (not so good) output they provide makes them not really viable. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

How will this effect veterans?

Maybe promote a change from melta to plasma to go for the higher number of shots?

Honestly, vets suffer from the same old issue of being an Elites choice. It's hard to justify taking them vs Infantry Squads, or even Conscripts. Exploding 6s help them as much as any other unit, but the cost you pay for the (not so good) output they provide makes them not really viable.

all the special and heavy weapons is why I take them personally.

[Diagramdude]

Hilariously this new buff makes flamers terrible in comparison

[jarms48]

Scions don't block the auto-wound change, because they are not regiment, but tempestus regiment. They also don't benefit from it though, by the same logic with which you can still mix Scions and regular Guard.

The infantry change is...hm. Unsure. For a lot of people it'll be another 5p hike. I'm doubtful it'll add much power either. I personally always upgraded with Vox anyway though, so I guess it's a free flamer for me.

And yeah...those non-LoS changes would have killed our arty. Thank goodness we ignore it.

Scions do stop it. Their regiment is Militarum Tempestus.

 

“Units with the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS keyword treat this as their <REGIMENT> keyword in all respects, but the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS keyword cannot be used to replace the <REGIMENT> keyword on any other datasheet.”

 

* * * * *

 

Basically Guard have 2 builds now. Pure infantry Infantry Squads or pure infantry Scion Squads. The former has no point taking any other <Regiment> infantry. Veterans are useless, Special Weapon Squads useless, Command Squads almost useless.

 

If you take 18 infantry squads in your army. That’s 18 plasma guns, 18 plasma pistols, 18 power swords, 18 voxes, and 18 lascannons. Works out to be 540 points of free upgrades.

Edited April 15, 2022 by jarms48

[Diagramdude]

Scions don’t stop it. You cut out the part right before that where it’s all referring to <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT>

[domsto]

 

Scions do stop it. Their regiment is Militarum Tempestus.

 

“Units with the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS keyword treat this as their <REGIMENT> keyword in all respects, but the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS keyword cannot be used to replace the <REGIMENT> keyword on any other datasheet.”

 

* * * * *

 

Basically Guard have 2 builds now. Pure infantry Infantry Squads or pure infantry Scion Squads. The former has no point taking any other <Regiment> infantry. Veterans are useless, Special Weapon Squads useless, Command Squads almost useless.

 

If you take 18 infantry squads in your army. That’s 18 plasma guns, 18 plasma pistols, 18 power swords, 18 voxes, and 18 lascannons. Works out to be 540 points of free upgrades.

 

GW needs to clarify about the Sions. As i read it according to "the Greater Good" Sions are <Tempestus Regiment> no longer <Regiment>, but i can see the arguments for your interpretations as well. I think the intend was for Sions to not get or break it, otherwise they would have worded it a bit different.

 

I'm also of the same Opinion than you about Special Weapon Teams, Veterans,... every other Infantry choice is now heavily outclassed by Infantry Squads. particularly the Veterans strike me as odd, not only do they still have to pay for every single Update, even in a Lore POV it doesn't make sense that normal Infantry has easy access to all the shiny Weapons, while Veterans, who are more likely to be issued Special Weapons, don't.

 

The Infantry Squad buff feels more like a bandaid for Guard so they can survivel till the Codex drops. I would be very suprised if this Ruling is kept in the Codex.

[TCC]

Does this now make sponsons weak? At 20pts per tank commander you get 2 heavy bolters x 3 TC. 18 shots.

Or you run one extra troop with HW for 60pts? Hmm need to run the numbers

[sairence]

The Scions thing definitely needs clarification, I sent a mail about it to the faq-mail yesterday. The <Tempestus Regiment> kw isn't actually relevant here, because it was added in addition to the Militarum Tempestus kw.

 

The infantry squad thing I'm not sold on as a major buff. In most lists it means 3-6 extra special weapons and maybe 3-6 heavy weapons...which isn't a huge increase in lethality when they miss half the time. More for HWT. Adding a heavy weapon also means one less obsec body.

 

If IS were actually dangerous this would be great, but they're just not. So it feels more like a nice to have.

Edited April 15, 2022 by sairence

[Warhead01]

I kinda like this bit of Band-Aid. Interested to see how this shakes out. 
Grumble grumble I guess I need a bunch of lascannons now?